Guns and Dementia

[Speedo66]

So what happens when gun owners age to the point of dementia, and can no longer make rational decisions regarding their gun possession and use?

When they no longer recognize spouses, family members or outside caregivers and point loaded weapons at these "strangers" in their homes?

Interesting article that discusses these issues and gives some pointers such as setting up trusts that allow a chosen trustee to be able to remove firearms possessed by loved ones when they deem it necessary.

Not something we'd like to think about, but with an aging population of gun owners it may be something we have to think about, for our parents or ourselves.

Here's the article:
https://www.nytimes.com/2018/05/25/...-region&region=bottom-well&WT.nav=bottom-well

 

[doubleh]

I've already thought about it. Everything is set up with a responsible family member if it happens which I certainly hope it does not.

 

[Tirod]

Do we take the keys away when we recognize that the individual can no longer handle driving?

Key indicator that gun handling won't be any better.

The real issue is using grace and sensitivity to arrange the loss of control thru offering supervised opportunities. None of us want to lose our freedom to travel or simply run an errand, a gun owner doesn't want to feel unsafe.

As pointed out in many other threads, what to do with a collection of firearms after they pass away might be handled at that point in life.

It WILL happen. We need to accept that fact and plan on it more than deny it and leave things undone.

 

[Carl N. Brown]

Another consideration is that like home, car, jewelry, and other realty and personalty, the guns a senior citizen has acquired is an asset of their estate and should be handled to their benefit.

 

[Sovblocgunfan]

The real issue is using grace and sensitivity...

Everything you said was important, but this was the key for me. Grace and dignity.

Amazingly sensitive subject. One also hopes that our loved ones have the good sense and forethought to make arrangements while they are still sharp.

 

[Swifty Morgan]

I took my dad's guns, and I didn't take him to get his driver's license renewed. I didn't inform him or allow him to be involved in the decisions. I have taken car keys out of his bedroom. He is all done driving.

He's not violent, but he has terrible judgment and memory problems. I don't trust him to do things right if he gets curious and takes a gun out to look at it.

Involving demented people in decisions like this can be a huge mistake. My dad is a proud and uncooperative guy with a very dismissive attitude. If I give him the chance to argue and stall, he makes the most of it. If I make a decision without him, he goes along with it.

 

[cowboy77845]

Observed this situation in first ex wife's husband and cousins family. She and children just removed guns from house in first, wife removed in second. Hard decision, most people wait until it is almost too late because they do not want to deal with the dementia/alshimer issue. I suppose denial is not only a river in Egypt. Not sure whether it is becoming more common but I sure have been exposed to a lot of people with dementia problems lately.

 

[BSA1]

I've already thought about it. Everything is set up with a responsible family member if it happens which I certainly hope it does not.

As G. Gordon Liddy used to say "My wife has a great gun collection."

The rules set up in my home are:

My wife owns all of the guns. Kids are s.o.l. until she says they can have them.

The Daughter #1 has second claim to them.

Son #1 lives in Maryland and has very limited claim to them as long as he lives in Maryland. I have told him the guns will not be divided equally due to Maryland's restrictive gun laws. I have also told him that once he moves to a free State then he can have some really cool guns. (I would like to start to give the kids some guns but living in Maryland makes it hard as I am not going to give him something the State is going to ban down the road).

Part of the reason I am pursuing a "2 is 1" with selected firearms is to be able to divide them equally. What I have told them is they can trade whatever their Mother says they can have between themselves.

In fact Daughter #1 and her hubby will be home in a couple of weeks and I am planning on a serious discussion session in the vault with them. Laying the ground rules hopefully will make things easier when the time comes.

 

[BSA1]

My dad is a proud and uncooperative guy with a very dismissive attitude. If I give him the chance to argue and stall, he makes the most of it. If I make a decision without him, he goes along with it.

My F-I-L refuses to discuss anything about dying. He will not write a will, has not communicated how he wants things divided up and is having memory issues so he is not remembering what he has said. One of my b-I-l is literally a thief so things are going to get ugly when the time comes. Actually the whole family situation is going to get really ugly and my wife and I know we will have to make the decisions.

I have been able to take care of some things without telling him that has worked out ok. The key thing is not to discuss it around him after it is done. I need to make a trip to visit them and figure out a way to get his guns. (Small collection...couple of inexpensive shotguns, rifle and 22 rifle). He is sadly getting easily taken advantage of by his so-called friendly neighbors and probably will not remember loaning them out. I will probably tell him they need cleaning or some work done and since I am the gunny in the family he will probably let me take them. I will keep them in the vault until either he wants them back or he dies.

 

[Fine Figure of a Man]

An important subject that we all could potentially face from either side.
The best option for all of us is to set it up ourselves as part of a living will along with a will/trust, funeral plans, burial and or cremation, etc.
It really helps family and friends in a difficult time.

 

[Officers'Wife]

Fortunately my dad has already considered the possibility, among others. He not only has a will drawn up and updated but written instructions for guardians and trustees in the case that he and my stepmother should find themselves incapacitated.

While it is a hard subject to contemplate, he believes a part of his duty includes keeping himself and his loved ones safe even from him should the future hold such cruel disease as dementia. When I was doing volunteer work at the Veterans Home, on one occasion he went with me and found himself visiting one of my favorites in the dementia ward. After which time, he had a long sitdown talk with one of my cousins that happens to be an attorney and had a number of papers drawn up both legal and personal. From what I hear, he even has his funeral planned out and paid for. I suspect what he wants most to avoid is the feeding frenzy that occurred when his brother died in 2001.

 

[Swifty Morgan]

My F-I-L refuses to discuss anything about dying. He will not write a will, has not communicated how he wants things divided up and is having memory issues so he is not remembering what he has said. One of my b-I-l is literally a thief so things are going to get ugly when the time comes. Actually the whole family situation is going to get really ugly and my wife and I know we will have to make the decisions.

It's too bad people don't think of their families instead of basking in selfish denial. They don't realize what dying intestate does to one's relatives. Instead of a relatively orderly distribution, you end up with people scrapping and backbiting.

I don't know your state's laws, but I know that generally, oral bequests are garbage. You need a will, a trust, an LLC, or some other written instrument. If your father-in-law takes ill, tells people who gets what, and then dies, he won't be fixing anything. He'll just be setting the family up for lawsuits. And written wills have to satisfy various conditions. A written will can be worthless when it's not executed properly.

He can give away whatever he wants while he's still alive, however. Then whoever gets it will need to be able to prove he gave it to them and that he was in his right mind. Those who get left out may then try to prove coercion or that he didn't know what he was doing.

If he has anything worth spending money to protect, maybe you should go see an estate-planning lawyer without him, just to look after yourself.

I've learned a lot about how not to plan an estate from watching my grandparents. My dad, fortunately, is in a better situation. Because of his dementia, I had to take over his business gradually, and we have all sorts of written instruments to protect everything. When he dies, instead of selling everything because I have no idea what to do with it, I'll just keep on managing it and collecting the income, as I am now.

Anyone who has a business should try to get his children involved in managing it, EARLY. My family sold tons of property that should have been leased, mined, drilled, or farmed. We didn't know what to do with it, and my grandfather didn't train anyone or name a manager.

 

[Fine Figure of a Man]

One of my b-I-l is literally a thief so things are going to get ugly when the time comes.

All to common.
Don't forget the biggest thief of all, the IRS.

 

[Swifty Morgan]

The IRS and state tax people are pretty bad, but don't forget the lawyers. The more you pay lawyers while you're alive, the less your heirs will have to pay them later.

My dad's current estate lawyer has received a grand total of $1200. You would have to torture me with hot pokers to get me to say what we paid the attorneys for my grandparents.

 

[BSA1]

If he has anything worth spending money to protect, maybe you should go see an estate-planning lawyer without him, just to look after yourself.

Premature at this time as his wife (M-i-L) is still alive. The good news she will listen to my wife. As awful and cold as it sounds it will be best if he precedes her in death. We think she is planning on coming to live with us if that happens so I should not have any problems with getting control of the guns then

I have been through a situation of greedy relatives and a free for all grabbing everything they can. Just no way to get him to even acknowledge that both of them are getting up in years (80+ yoa) and the benefits of writing everything down.

 

[George P]

My F-I-L refuses to discuss anything about dying. He will not write a will, has not communicated how he wants things divided up and is having memory issues so he is not remembering what he has said. One of my b-I-l is literally a thief so things are going to get ugly when the time comes. Actually the whole family situation is going to get really ugly and my wife and I know we will have to make the decisions.

I have been able to take care of some things without telling him that has worked out ok. The key thing is not to discuss it around him after it is done. I need to make a trip to visit them and figure out a way to get his guns. (Small collection...couple of inexpensive shotguns, rifle and 22 rifle). He is sadly getting easily taken advantage of by his so-called friendly neighbors and probably will not remember loaning them out. I will probably tell him they need cleaning or some work done and since I am the gunny in the family he will probably let me take them. I will keep them in the vault until either he wants them back or he dies.

Even in the best of families, splitting up things after a death always seems to get ugly; the best thing to do is put your wished in writing.

 

[doubleh]

I'll tell you something, fellows. Until you have dealt with someone with dementia you have no idea of what it is like. They are totally lost to you and you to them. They live in a different time and place than we do. If I do descend into dementia I hope to pass on quickly both for my and my family's sake.

 

[Officers'Wife]

I'll tell you something, fellows. Until you have dealt with someone with dementia you have no idea of what it is like. They are totally lost to you and you to them. They live in a different time and place than we do. If I do descend into dementia I hope to pass on quickly both for my and my family's sake.

I worked on Pyle 3 which is the ward for dementia/Alheimers. I have seen firsthand what the curse does to patient and family alike. One incident that broke my heart beyond repair was when an elderly lady was asked why she bothered to visit her older son since he didn't communicate. The Saint said simply... He may have forgotten I am his mother and this man is his brother but we have not.

 

[.308 Norma]

Weird this should come up right now. One of my younger sisters works as a “Caregiver” for homebound (mostly elderly) folks. She cleans their houses, fixes them a meal, takes them to doctor appointments, or occasionally the grocery store, and reports on how they’re doing to the agency she works for. I’m pretty sure her wages ultimately come from the government, and are filtered through whatever the agency’s name is.

Anyway, my sister and her husband are about to leave on vacation for a few weeks. They’re going to Alaska, and last week she called to tell me about their plans. During the conversation she spoke about how worried she was about one of her clients that obviously suffers with dementia/Alzheimer’s. She said his family won’t have anything to do with him because he’s so ornery, and sometimes it takes him a while to recognize her. But the worst thing is, is that lately he’s taken to wandering around the neighborhood, even at night. “And he carries a pistol,” my sister said.

Well, I lost it. I blew up and told my absolutely clueless about guns sister that she needs to report the guy to the agency she works for. I’m about as pro 2A as they come, but honest to goodness – someone with dementia so bad that he occasionally wanders around the neighborhood, and he has a gun?! Somebody could get hurt, or dead, and it could be my sister or an innocent child. Besides, as I told my sister, I think if someone gets shot, she, and/or the agency she works for could be held liable because she knows he has a gun and she knows he sometimes wanders around the neighborhood with it.

 

[DoubleMag]

Not something we'd like to think about, but with an aging population of gun owners it may be something we have to think about, for our parents or ourselves.

Hopefully while they are still rational I would suggest setting up a Trust. Trust does not necessarily mean dying and it's easier to ''sell'' to the ornery.
People later in life usually accept they have less time to go then what they've already travelled, and understand planning. Some generic NFA trusts allow including all firearms and etc. and usually around the $100 range. Just don't include the NFA item that's not there.
Another potential ''sells'' for such a Trust is ''all that's happening is simply planning'', they as originator of the Trust still ''owns'' everything & has control, it's not a giveaway. And if they're at themselves enough to understand they can honestly say, ''I do not own anything'' seeing officially, the Trust does.

Also by naming trustees and/or beneficiaries the infirmed person can avoid taxes, avoid probate, and they can change it anytime they want if someone falls in/ out of favor- they'll love all that!

 

[BSA1]

During the conversation she spoke about how worried she was about one of her clients that obviously suffers with dementia/Alzheimer’s. She said his family won’t have anything to do with him because he’s so ornery, and sometimes it takes him a while to recognize her. But the worst thing is, is that lately he’s taken to wandering around the neighborhood, even at night. “And he carries a pistol,” my sister said.

You should tell her that she should be concerned about her safety also. Since it takes him a while to recognize her he might think he is being robbed and shoot her thinking he is defending himself.

 

[CraigC]

This happened with my father-in-law. He started having mini-strokes at age 47, now 20yrs ago and that devolved into vascular dementia. Before long there was a near-incident involving a shotgun and his nephew. No discussion was had, the guns were all removed from the house that day.

 

[George P]

You should tell her that she should be concerned about her safety also. Since it takes him a while to recognize her he might think he is being robbed and shoot her thinking he is defending himself.

Absolutely, my FIL, ex-leo and when he was about 94 would grab his gun an go investigating bumps in the night in his mobile home park.......He still remembered everyone and every detail; but you never know what someone is thinking when woken from a sleep at 3AM

 

[Caplock]

When my Grandpa couldn't remember the combo to his safe, he essentially took them away from himself.

 

[luger fan]

Everything you said was important, but this was the key for me. Grace and dignity.

Amazingly sensitive subject. One also hopes that our loved ones have the good sense and forethought to make arrangements while they are still sharp.

100% When you ask a loved one for their keys or guns you are asking for their freedom. SLOOOOOOOOOOOOLY.