Guns and Gaming...

[Aaryq]

Howdy folks. I hope this is the right forum to put this in. In addition to being a firearms enthusiast, I enjoy playing table-top role playing games. In the game that I play, the damage for guns is...for lack of better words FUBAR. Examples would be a .30-06 doing the same damage as a .30 carbine, or 7.62x25 and 5.45x39 doing the same damage. I'm gonna put a list down for you all, and if you could, rate their damage 1-10 and penetration 1-7. Due to the nature of the game, most of these will be calibers currently/formerly used by the military (and if I miss something feel free to add it.

Fired From a Rifle-length barrel (it will vary but we don't need to get too technical)
.50 BMG
.500 S&W Magnum
.50 AE
.460 S&W
.454 Casull
.45-70 Gov't
.45 Long
.45 ACP
.40 S&W
10mm
8mm Mauser
.357 Magnum
.38 Special
9mm Luger
9x18mm
.380 ACP
.303 British
.30-06 Springfield
7.62x54R
.300 Win Mag
.300 WSM
7.62x51 (.308 Win)
7.62x39
.30 Carbine
7.62x25
.243 Winchester
5.7mm
5.56x45 (.223)
5.45x39
.22 Magnum
.22 LR
.22 Short
.17 HMR
.17 HM2


Fired from a Pistol Length barrel
.500 S&W Magnum
.50 AE
.460 S&W
.454 Casull
.45-70 Gov't
.45 Long
.45 ACP
.40 S&W
10mm
.357 Magnum
.38 Special
9mm Luger
9x18mm
.380 ACP
7.62x51 (.308 Win)
7.62x39
.30 Carbine
7.62x25
.243 Winchester
5.7mm
5.56x45 (.223)
5.45x39
.22 Magnum
.22 LR
.22 Short
.17 HMR
.17 HM2


Shotguns:
12 Gauge Slug
12 Gauge 00 Buck
12 Gauge Birdshot
20 Gauge Slug
20 Gauge 00 Buck
20 Gauge Birdshot
.410 Bore Slug
.410 Bore 000 Buck
.410 Bore 00 Buck
.410 Bore Birdshot

 

[Fosbery]

You need range bands

 

[grimjaw]

This has been the problem with most damage allocations from gaming systems. Either they are *too* accurate, and therefor so technical that it takes away from gameplay, or they are more broad but unrealistic.

Your scale will depend on whether or not expanding ammunition is used, what part of the body is hit, etc.

jm

 

[Officers'Wife]

Hi Aaryq,

If I recall correctly an Army Col named Hatcher put *ball weight* and *muzzle velocity* into an equation that predicted 'knock down' power. I don't recall the equation at the moment but his work in a library or subroutine might be the way to go in the programming. That way if a player finds himself with a 22 or a .69 cal Brown Bess it would just be a matter of calculation.

Selena

 

[RyanM]

You might like the RPG system I'm developing. The official rule for firearms is that base damages must be determined by MacPherson's equations (plus my own, if available). Also, damage is determined solely by be ammunition. Each ammunition has a range and damage rating for 5 classes of firearms, which are based on barrel length.

Going for something that's about as easy as D20 / D&D to play, and easier than GURPS to design new stuff (i.e., no integral calculus).

 

[akodo]

0 - 22 25
1 - 32 380 38long etc
2 - 38special 9mmL
3 - 40 357 sig 44 special
4 - 357 45acp
5 - 10mm 44mag
6 - 50AE 454 480
7 - 500 SW 460SW

I'd not bother to scale up semiauto rounds in carbines or SMGs but I'd bump up 357 and 44mag etc in rifle length barrels by one catagory
rifles

1 - 22LR in rifle
2 - 22 mag in rifle
3 - 22 hornet, 32-20 and family
4 - 30 carbine
5- skip
6 - intermediate rifle rounds (5.56, 7.62x39, 30-30 etc)
7 -super 22s, etc (22-250)
8 -lightened true rifle rounds (243)
9 -true rifle rounds (7.62 NATO, 30-06, 8mm mauser, 270, etc)
10 -'magnum' small caliber and heavy big caliber (7mm rem mag, 300 win mag 338 win)
11 - super mags and thin skin dangerous game (300 ultramags 300-378, 375 HH, etc)
12 - classic heavy dangerous game (416 rigby etc)
13- magnumized modern heavy dangerous game (460 weatherby etc)
13 also, beyond 30 cal extreme range rounds (338 laupa etc)
14 -beyond 38 cal extreme range rounds (416 cheyannetactical etc)
15 - 50 BMG and family
16 - the bigger soviet stuff
17 - the newer 50 BMG replacement stuff
18 - 20mm stuff

 

[Richbaker]

I don't care what anyone says, .50BMG has GOTTA be a 10... .22/.25 a 0!

 

[Autolycus]

Check out a game called "Millenuims End". THe game basically has you play Blackwater mercenaries in a very similar world. The combat system is very accurate and very good.

Remember though that a lot of these games may have similar damages for these guns but it kind of makes sense. A 9mm will leave you as dead as a .45 ACP in the real world. Accurate combat systems are very hard to get realistic. The best in my opinion is Millenuims End and Legend of the 5 Rings or L5R.

 

[Autolycus]

By the way, whar game are you playing? It looks like the White Wolf damage system.

 

[Slugless]

I don't care what anyone says, .50BMG has GOTTA be a 10

.50BMG goes to 11.

 

[fearless leader]

I haven't fired many of the guns on games, but I agree the damage levels are incredibly wrong.
One of my favorites is Medal of Honor Allied Assault. I noticed that the 8mm Mauser Sniper rifle cannot reliably kill the enemy, or a magazine from the MP-40, but the .22 suppressed pistol is roughly equivelant of a 105 howitzer. I can reliably kill the enemy if I shoot him in the "berries" with the suppressed .22. I noticed the suppressed weapons have more killing power in effect on the games. The 12 ga. shotgun in the chest at arms length usually takes 3 shots to put down an enemy, and no more than 3 in the head. I can unload a BAR which is a 30-'06 in the enemies head, and he shakes it off and kills me.
I have shot distant enemies with the suppressed .22 and not been able to hit them with the sniping rifle.
As tough as those Nazis were, it's no wonder we suffered the losses that we did in some battles. Most men shot in the head with a High Power rifle are impressed and act like it hurt to say the least. Go Figure.
On Mercenaries, Playground of Destruction, the Russian SMG is more effective than an RPK, Grenades rarely kill....the enemy, they do a number on me.
I rarely have to shoot someone more than once or twice with the Barrett Light 50 BMG.

 

[General Geoff]

With a damage scale limited to scale of 1-10, many calibers will have to be listed as similar.


I ran a D20 modern campaign once as the GM, and I just ad-libbed damage ratings for various calibers depending on what my players chose to use. It's far easier to do that than to make up a gigantic chart for all known calibers/barrel lengths/ammunition types.

.22 handgun? 1d6+1 damage
.357 mag revolver? 2d6+1 damage
.380ACP handgun? 2d4+1 damage
10mm auto pistol? 2d6+2 damage

.223/5.56mm rifle? 3d6+2 damage
.30-06 rifle? 3d8+2 damage
.308 rifle? 3d8+2 (same as .30-06)
.338 lapua rifle: 3d10+3
.50BMG rifle: 4d10+4

for a rifle chambered in a pistol caliber: use pistol damage +1
for a pistol chambered in a rifle caliber: use rifle damage -1


(granted this is just for the d20 system)



You could look up the average muzzle energy of said caliber/barrel length, and use a conversion formula to find said damage. That might be the most realistic.

 

[eliphalet]

Wild Bill Hickock and others in times past have found that table top games and firearms are not such a good combination.

 

[General Geoff]

how so?

 

[Fosbery]

General Geoff,

He was shot in the back of the head whilst playing poker.

Everyone else,

The original poster was talking about a table top game i.e. pen and paper roleplaying e.g. Dungeons & Dragons. Not a computer game

 

[cpileri]

here's what I did

Using your K.I.S.S. principle and setting a 1-10 scale, I just laid down a simple 'diminshing returns" graph and used this scale:

raw score scaled score
620K and up 10
440K- 619999 9
300K- 439999 8
200K- 299999 7
120K-199999 6
90K- 119999 5
75K-89999 4
55K- 74999 3
20K- 54999 2
under 20K 1


Where the raw score is simply a multiplication of caliber (in inches) times weight (in grains) times velocity (in fps).
The exponentially less return gives some favor to the weaker rounds, and especially the larger diameter rounds; to give them a fighting chance. It also approaches 10 quickly. So sure the 50 BMG is a 10, but so are alot of others- 10 basically represents an 'overkill' cartridge for human targets.
Email me and I can send you the excel file.

Here's the results, but with rifle rounds fired from rifles and pistol rounds from pistols. I used a veyr standard american loading for each cartridge (if you see the excel, you'll see what I mean). I also left out buck/bird shot as I didnt know how you wanted to handle multiple wound channels.

cartridge.............RPG Value......Scaled 1-10
50 BMG................976140............10
.500 S&W Mag......345625.............8
.50 AE.................215312.5 ..........7
.460 S&W............208840..............7
.454 Casull...........224276..............7
.45-70 Gov't..........258312............7
.45 Long Colt.........99880..............5
.45 ACP................88170.5............4
.40 S&W................66000.............4
10mm.....................90300............4
8mm Mauser............129038.5........6
.357 Magnum............70507.5........3
.38 Special...............50765.4.........2
9mm Luger...............52706.85........2
9x18mm...................34046.1..........2
.380 ACP...................30033...........2
.303 British................135285.........6
.30-06 Springfield......149688.......... 6
7.62x54R ...............128878.4........6
.300 Win Mag............164934.........6
.300 WSM................152460..........6
7.62x51 (.308 Win) ...129360 ..........6
7.62x39..................89894.55........4
.30 Carbine.............67421.2..........4
7.62x25..................44939.5..........2
.243 Winchester........65124 ...........3
5.7mm.....................19264 ............1
5.56x45 (.223)........39738.6 .........2
5.45x39...................33040 ..........2
.22 Magnum............ 17113.6.........1
.22 LR.....................9633.6 ...........1
.22 Short ................5367.61..........1
.17 HMR...................7456.2............1
.17 HM2...................6140.4........... 1
12ga 1oz slug .........485413.5.........9
20ga 3/4oz slug......313619.25........8
410bore 1/4ox slug ....64944 ..........3

Alot of suprising calibers came out valued as "1", and a bit underrated is the 223 Rem, but that's because of its small diameter. Just the way th emath works out. Of course, its your game so alter it any way you wish.

Maybe a better mathematician can give some better graphs, which might let some calibers fall out better.

C-

 

[Officers'Wife]

Hi cpileri,

I agree with your math somewhat, I don't really think the caliber would be necessary in the calc. E=MA after all. Considering the shock value of small high speed ball in tissue distortion very nearly equates itself to the larger wound channels of large slow moving ball.

Selena

 

[General Geoff]

That's a pretty good chart. I'd like to see how it stacks compared to raw joule ratings.

 

[Titan6]

I am not sure I understand the question but damage perdiction is most often based upon KE dump, penetration and bullet expansion. These are often very different based upon the type ammunition used.

 

[General Geoff]

One could assume that all ammunition in the game (for simplicity's sake) is ball, and/or make special modifiers for JHP, frangible, etc..

 

[esmith]

In all games bullets fly in perfectly flat trajectories. No matter how far or close it is. You could shoot a character from 10 ft in the head with a revolver then do the same with someone at a mile away.

 

[General Geoff]

Also remember:

Be very wary of using realistic damage charts for firearms! It can break the game considerably, especially when all things in reality are not accounted for. If you end up using the chart above (or any other somewhat realistic damage chart), don't be surprised when all of your players are using .50BMG and .338 Lapua Magnum rifles all the time, because they will practically guarantee insta-kills for nearly any foe.

Reality isn't fair or balanced; games are supposed to be, for playability's sake. Using real damage conversions WILL unbalance the game.

In all games bullets fly in perfectly flat trajectories. No matter how far or close it is. You could shoot a character from 10 ft in the head with a revolver then do the same with someone at a mile away.

Not true; most table-top games account for range by assigning modifiers to attack rolls and such. And there are also video/computer games that have simulated real-world ballistics.

 

[Regolith]

In all games bullets fly in perfectly flat trajectories. No matter how far or close it is. You could shoot a character from 10 ft in the head with a revolver then do the same with someone at a mile away.

You haven't played enough games. In earlier ones this was true, however most modern video games take ballistics into account.

Also, cpileri: Last time I checked, Energy = 0.5 x Mass x Velocity^2. If you don't take into account the squared velocity and the one-half multiplier, you're chart isn't going to be very accurate.

 

[General Geoff]

For someone with more time/patience than me, here's a muzzle energy calculator:

http://www.cruffler.com/BallisticCalculators/BallisticCalculator.shtml

From there you can take raw energy in either ft/lbs or joules, and condense them to simpler numbers for a power chart.

 

[rockinrussky]

Fallout

Hey, you ever tried checking out Fallout? Its a computer RPG series (really really good one) that has a scale for damage for quite a few of those rounds mentioned. I can't recall off the top of my head, but I know most of the pistol calibers mentioned are in there. There is a damage range in there for every gun where the damage is further determined by the type of ammo used (as in, fmj, jhp, ball, etc) in addition to the amount of penetration vs. armor. (ex: 357 mag revolver, 15-25 damage, for JHP cartridge: +20% damage, -10% penetration) Anyways, it may not be exactly what you're looking for but I would still recommend at least looking up the stats for the game online.