guns of the korean war

[KiltedClaymore]

having just finished watching every last episode of M*A*S*H (thanks to netflix) i was wondering where are all the guns used in Korea? I see the Chiniese Mosins every once in awhile, and the usual Garands and carbines, but where are the m3 grease guns, the thompsons, more mosins, tt-33, ect?

 

[Jim Watson]

The prop department didn't have any. It's a tv show, and part comedy, part tearjerker, not a traditional war story at that.

 

[Deanimator]

It's M.A.S.H. The point is not realism. The point is to try to equate Korea with Vietnam, and as a secondary goal, get some laughs.

In one espisode, the camp was besieged by a North Korean sniper. Eventually, they brought in a Bell 47 carrying a guy with a Thompson SMG who hosed down the sniper. Alan Alda of course bemoaned the sniper's fate. Call me cynical, but I suspect that even Cindy Sheehan would applaud the imminent demise of someone trying to blow her head off... at least until the guy was dead.

 

[matt87]

Alan Alda had quite an axe to grind with that. IMO, a forerunner to the modern Hollyweird type.

 

[Cannonball888]

I started feeling ill watching M.A.S.H. when Alda took over writing.

 

[KiltedClaymore]

i dont mean in the show! I mean on the market!

 

[matt87]

Well, M3s were designed to be cheap, disposable SMGs. Considering that and the fact that many were of WW2 vintage, there can't be too many knocking about these. The NFA, FOPA etc. must surely limit the number on the market too. IIRC it'd be two tax stamps for one (SBR, FA), let alone the massize post '86 market price. Also, I've heard that they are popular within certain military persons who like them as PDWs.

 

[News Shooter]

A couple of years ago a young woman 28 ish, who used to work for me, was in town and I took her to dinner in the North End in Boston. Alan Alda and his party came and were seated next to us. I discreetly told her that Alana Alda was sitting next to her. She said "Who?" Getting old stinks

 

[buzz_knox]

Considering that and the fact that many were of WW2 vintage, there can't be too many knocking about these.

The major issue with transferable M3s is that they were still military issue (for US armored crews) until the 90s. Combine that with the number distributed/sole to other countries or foreign groups, and not many were available for civilian sale.

IIRC it'd be two tax stamps for one (SBR, FA),

No, you only need one tax stamp. If you have a full-auto weapon, you don't need a separate tax stamp to have the original short barrel on it.

 

[Cosmoline]

"Taegukgi" is a much, much better movie about the Korean war and is quite accurate as far as weapons go. The South Koreans had a lot of US military surplus including Garands and M-1 carbines. The North Koreans had 91/30's and other secondhand weapons from the Soviets. The Chicoms came in later in the war, and brought the newer M-44's with them. NATO forces would have had the most up-to-date weaponry though the main battle rifle was still the Garand. Apart from the subguns all are pretty easy to find. I've heard of N.Korean made Mosins but never seen one. I don't know if these are post war or not. Mostly they would have used Soviet or Chinese Mosins and the odd mix of Toks, Nagant revolvers and some semiautos.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sxdMAt7uAlc

 

[Deanimator]

The Chicoms came in later in the war, and brought the newer M-44's with them.

The PLA brought lots of ex-KMT weaponry, including the Chiang Kai Chek version of the Mauser Standard Modell (Kar98k), Czech VZ-26 LMG, etc. They also had lots and lots of PPSh SMGs.

My college faculty advisor and one of my poli sci instructors had been an officer cadet in an ad hoc special operations unit of the ROK Army.

One day, after the PLA had come into the war, they were surprised in camp by Chinese troops. One of them had a PPSh with a 71 round drum. He shot the living crap out of everyone and everything in his way, then just put his weapon down and put up his hands. This obviously puzzled the crap out of everyone. When he was questioned about how and when he ended up in South Korea, he seemed surprised. When they asked him again, he said, "We're not in Korea, we're in China!" Everybody just looked at each other in confusion. After a bit more questioning, he said that he'd been told that the United States had invaded China and that he was being drafted to chase them out. They put him and a bunch of other draftees on a train headed for the front. When they got off, they were told they were still in China, and were marched off to the front.

When they asked him why he put down his weapon and surrendered when he so obviously had the upper hand, he replied that they'd given him a uniform, the PPSh and one loaded drum. They showed him how to charge his weapon and fire, but not how to reload. So when he ran out of ammunition, he just surrendered because he didn't know what else to do!

 

[Cosmoline]

Ha! That's one for the movies.

I suspect there were more than a few old Arisakas around from the Japanese invasion as well.

 

[Deanimator]

I suspect there were more than a few old Arisakas around from the Japanese invasion as well.

Actually, second line ROK Army formations and militia were armed with arsenal reworked Type 99 Arisakas. They were rechambered to .30-06 in Japan, but the original .311 bores were retained. They weren't crap for accuracy, but it was a quick way to put SOME kind of firearm in the hands of people whom it was hoped would never need them.

Back in the early '90s, Rutger's Book Center used to come to the Ohio Gun Collector's Association Show in Cleveland. They carried a thin little pamphlet about these "kimchee rig" Arisakas.

 

[Cosmoline]

I'd like to do more reading about that war, but most of the book stores seem to be heavy into US WWII topics and light on anything else. As they say it's the forgotten war.

MASH, with it's "why can't we all get along" rhetoric, rings mighty hollow given the state of North Korea today. They say the people there are now considerably smaller than their cousins in the south because of multi generational malnutrition. Smuggled film shows dead people lying in the streets but everyone afraid to acknowledge their existence lest they be deemed enemies of the state. It's like some vision of hell.

I wonder if the Turkish troops there were still fighting with their Mausers.

 

[Deanimator]

I wonder if the Turkish troops there were still fighting with their Mausers.

I think we supplied them and the Greeks with M1s, BARs and M1919s/M1917s.

I believe the French and British retained their #4Mk(n)s and MAS49s. If I remember correctly, the plan for the invasion of Japan involved COMPLETELY equipping British landing forces, including M1s and GI fatigues.

 

[Gunnerpalace]

I one episode I remembered seeing AK's without their magazine, BTW were AK used in Korea?

 

[Cosmoline]

I really doubt it. In the early 50's those were the prized possession of the Soviets. As I understand it they farmed out M-44's and then SKS-45's as the 50's rolled along but didn't start letting go of the AK's until the 60's and 70's.

 

[TexasRifleman]

IIRC it'd be two tax stamps for one (SBR, FA), let alone the massize post '86 market price.

Just FYI it's only one stamp. A machinegun may have a short barrel without any additional tax stamps. Only semi autos are SBRs. Machine guns are machineguns regardless of barrel length.

 

[DoubleTapDrew]

where are the m3 grease guns, the thompsons, more mosins, tt-33, ect?

I wonder about that too since they turned out a LOT of those guns, especially the cheaply produced subguns, yet there aren't a whole lot of transferrable ones on the market. I wonder if there will be a huge number of non-deactivated, non registered war trophies turning up in personal effects when the WWII generation dies (and the horrible fate that will befall those pieces of history if the registry stays closed to us serfs).

 

[Hiaboo]

The m3 grease guns, thompsons, etc etc are sitting in those pacific islands on abandoned military bases rusting in huge piles. I have seen pictures of this, I wish I saved those pictures alas i have not.

 

[sturmgewehr]

Well, M3s were designed to be cheap, disposable SMGs. Considering that and the fact that many were of WW2 vintage, there can't be too many knocking about these. The NFA, FOPA etc. must surely limit the number on the market too. IIRC it'd be two tax stamps for one (SBR, FA), let alone the massize post '86 market price. Also, I've heard that they are popular within certain military persons who like them as PDWs.

A machinegun under the NFA doesn't need two tax stamps to be 1) full auto and 2) a SBR. Being a machinegun on the registry covers it all. Now, put a suppressor on it and yes, you will need two tax stamps.

The last machineguns on the NFA registry happened in 1986.

The M3 remained in service with tank crews into the early 1990's.

During the Korean War 33,000 M3's were manufactured by the Ithica Gun Co.

 

[mp510]

A machinegun under the NFA doesn't need two tax stamps to be 1) full auto and 2) a SBR. Being a machinegun on the registry covers it all. Now, put a suppressor on it and yes, you will need two tax stamps.

Normally yes, but,...

There is an ATF letter that says that a suppressor permenantly attached to a machinegun reciever is a onestamp machine-gun, since the suppressor is then part of the machinegun, and machinegun is a trump-all classification.

 

[tinygnat219]

Korean War guns were what we had left over from WWII. As for MASH, the show was deliberately Anti-War.

 

[Timthinker]

If you wish to know what weapons were used in Korea, then think about the small arms used in World War II. The Korean War was fought largely with WW II infantry weapons. The one exception that comes to my mind, apart from jet aircraft, is the 3.5 inch "super" bazooka that replaced its 2.36 inch predecessor. There are other exceptions, but this is an accurate general assessment.

Regarding TV shows, they are designed primarily for entertainment rather than historical accuracy. This is why I use the term Hollyweird when I discuss movies and TV shows here.


Timthinker