Medal of Honor winner Drew Dix carried one (he's a friend of mine), along with a BHP. His favorite weapon though, was the .50 BMG.
Guns of Vietnam
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Bart Noir
Member
I wasn't there....
Had to say that, as I dislike posers. But I am glad to see some confirmation of the StG-44 (also known as MP-44) since I have been wondering for many years if the fella was right, the one who had been SF in the '60s to include the Tet time. He told me his team sometimes used this weapon when going into countries that we never, ever went into, nope, not once. Now you say that some were there in the hands of the VC. If only I could find a photo, of anybody using this weapon.
I have always wondered if he was the aforementioned poser type.
Bart Noir
Had to say that, as I dislike posers. But I am glad to see some confirmation of the StG-44 (also known as MP-44) since I have been wondering for many years if the fella was right, the one who had been SF in the '60s to include the Tet time. He told me his team sometimes used this weapon when going into countries that we never, ever went into, nope, not once. Now you say that some were there in the hands of the VC. If only I could find a photo, of anybody using this weapon.
I have always wondered if he was the aforementioned poser type.
Bart Noir
Brownshoe Sailor
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LLRPs and Swedish K's
I was hoist operator/gunner in a Navy SH-3D, Indian Gal 69, on a "Shining Brass" mission into NVN on 16 October '66. The White Rabbit team we inserted carried Swedish K's.
We (along with a second H-3) dropped the team on a ridgetop LZ we'd found a couple days previously, about 25 miles inland in the skinny part of North Vietnam. After they ran into some militia we went in to pick them up, two at a time on the jungle penetrator seat. The third pair had just got on and were barely clear of the ground when the firing started. My second crewman (on the M-60 pintle mounted atop a sheet of hardface that filled the lower half of the port side personnel door) and the four team members we already had on board were all firing back up the slope of the ridge to our port. I'm not sure the team's "Swedish K" machine pistols were doing much good at that range, but they'd punched out the port side cabin windows and were merrily blazing away. About the same time we took a rifle hit in the #1 engine fuel line, and JP came streaming through the cabin and out past my station on the hoist. Our pilot asked if we were clear to move out and I gave him an enthusiastic affirmative. We got out of the hover and started over the other ridge (east of us above our nose) before the fuel left in the fuel control ran out. A real golden BB affair.
On one engine we couldn't get much above 60 to 70 knots (normal in the poorly balanced armored SH-3s was 107 max) and 3,000 feet - so we couldn't pick up Tacan signals from ships in the gulf, but we knew the water was east and headed that way. Everything was fine until we crossed the coast near a town that had bridges - and AAA. Normally we were vectored away from AAA concentrations, so we weren't prepared for the pops and bangs and smoke puffs that started to look like one of those B-17 movies. Besides numerous fragments from bigger stuff, we took a string of three 37mm direct hits and lost the tail rotor control cables - but that old Sikorsky truck still made 15 miles out to sea where we ditched between a destroyer and frigate and were promptly rescued ourselves by a rival squadron. Pretty much everyone on board got hit, but between a flak vest and a badly bent M-60, when I woke up I'd caught only little pieces of frags and flying skin metal despite looking into a 37mm burst from four or five feet away.
http://raunchyredskins.us/Operations/SAR Pix.htm
I was hoist operator/gunner in a Navy SH-3D, Indian Gal 69, on a "Shining Brass" mission into NVN on 16 October '66. The White Rabbit team we inserted carried Swedish K's.
We (along with a second H-3) dropped the team on a ridgetop LZ we'd found a couple days previously, about 25 miles inland in the skinny part of North Vietnam. After they ran into some militia we went in to pick them up, two at a time on the jungle penetrator seat. The third pair had just got on and were barely clear of the ground when the firing started. My second crewman (on the M-60 pintle mounted atop a sheet of hardface that filled the lower half of the port side personnel door) and the four team members we already had on board were all firing back up the slope of the ridge to our port. I'm not sure the team's "Swedish K" machine pistols were doing much good at that range, but they'd punched out the port side cabin windows and were merrily blazing away. About the same time we took a rifle hit in the #1 engine fuel line, and JP came streaming through the cabin and out past my station on the hoist. Our pilot asked if we were clear to move out and I gave him an enthusiastic affirmative. We got out of the hover and started over the other ridge (east of us above our nose) before the fuel left in the fuel control ran out. A real golden BB affair.
On one engine we couldn't get much above 60 to 70 knots (normal in the poorly balanced armored SH-3s was 107 max) and 3,000 feet - so we couldn't pick up Tacan signals from ships in the gulf, but we knew the water was east and headed that way. Everything was fine until we crossed the coast near a town that had bridges - and AAA. Normally we were vectored away from AAA concentrations, so we weren't prepared for the pops and bangs and smoke puffs that started to look like one of those B-17 movies. Besides numerous fragments from bigger stuff, we took a string of three 37mm direct hits and lost the tail rotor control cables - but that old Sikorsky truck still made 15 miles out to sea where we ditched between a destroyer and frigate and were promptly rescued ourselves by a rival squadron. Pretty much everyone on board got hit, but between a flak vest and a badly bent M-60, when I woke up I'd caught only little pieces of frags and flying skin metal despite looking into a 37mm burst from four or five feet away.
http://raunchyredskins.us/Operations/SAR Pix.htm
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Leadbutt
Member
BrownShoe thank for the photos,, I was on a LRP team in the 60's can't tell you how many times the Navy SPADS and Air Force SANDY' saved our bacon.
Our teams primarly carried the 16 and the XM177/CAR but on long reach patrols we carried either Indig or "other" weapons
Our teams primarly carried the 16 and the XM177/CAR but on long reach patrols we carried either Indig or "other" weapons
BHP FAN
Member
Very cool stuff.There is a Historical pictures thread over on M1911.org that you should consider donateing to,as well.Thank you for your service,sir.
Vern Humphrey
Member
The Swedish Ks (officially the M/45) used in Viet Nam was actually a Smith and Wesson knock off, the M76. The wisdom of issueing those to people who might actually have to use them in combat is something that completely eluded me.
jhco
Member
IIRC the sniper rifle used was a m40a1 basically a remington 700
Another old and resurrected thread...
had to think back but a Col. I knew (who was a JAG in the army) swore he had an SF buddy that packed an MP38/40 'Schmiesser'. I'm always leary of stories like that but the Col. recounted a lot of colorful info about this soldier that had the ring of 'truth.'
had to think back but a Col. I knew (who was a JAG in the army) swore he had an SF buddy that packed an MP38/40 'Schmiesser'. I'm always leary of stories like that but the Col. recounted a lot of colorful info about this soldier that had the ring of 'truth.'
justashooter in pa
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I have seen ZB30 in 8X57 and in 7.62X39 conversion that did time in VN in the beijing military museum. chinese copies of the 1919 made in Hanyang arsenal in 8X57 and GI lend lease 1919 in 30-06 provided during the Stillwell period were also used as mounted guns.
justashooter in pa
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Hey Brownshoe,
That's a nasty situation. As a Bell Textron certified fuel systems P mechanic familiar with 212 systems for the Pratt Whitney PT6 (damned near to the 205 engine and in just about the same airframe) I understand what you're talking about.
That's a nasty situation. As a Bell Textron certified fuel systems P mechanic familiar with 212 systems for the Pratt Whitney PT6 (damned near to the 205 engine and in just about the same airframe) I understand what you're talking about.
84B20
Member
You can add a S&W model 10 with 4" barrel and a Walther P-38 (9mm). These actually weren't issued by the Army. I brought my own along. Since I was a photographer I didn't want to carry a long gun along with my cameras so after being issued an M16, which was taken away when I arrive in country and replace with an M14, I didn't want the extra weight since I had to travel all over the country for my unit.
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jhco
Member
Ithaca model 37 was used some
LRaccuracy
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Some pilots carried .38 special revolvers. I believe mine was a S&W model 10.
MABS-16 MAG-16
MABS-16 MAG-16
I wasn't there (I was born in '67) but I've read quite a bit about the war, especially on the small unit level.
My understanding is that pretty much *anything* made up 'till then turned up in Vietnam at one point or another.
The early U.S. advisors used a lot of U.S. WWII weapons, as did the ARVN troops the U.S. was advising. A lot of M-1 Garands were rebuilt in U.S. arsenals to keep the supply of foreign military aid to Vietnam flowing. The Garand was particularly ill-suited for the Vietnamese because many were of very small stature.
Later when the Garands were replaced with AR-15/M-16's, the Garands still in the rebuild pipeline were retained stateside. Many were rebuilt, put into storage, and never issued again. Some were later released under the DCM or CMP programs. I have one that went through that 60's era rebuild that I got from the CMP.
Early AR-15's were issued to U.S. advisors and Vietnemese troops before the U.S. military even planned to adopt the weapon itself. The AR-15 was smaller and lighter and had less recoil then the Garand, so it worked better for the Vietnamese troops. The suitability of the AR-15/M-16 as foreign aid to Vietnam was one of the things that kept that rifle program alive early on. The U.S. military didn't want it for itself, but was willing to let the ARVN troops use it.
The later models, the XM-16E1, USAF M-16, and US Army M-16A1 became the standard U.S. and ARVN weapon in the mid-sixties, largely replacing the M-14 (in U.S. service) and the M-1 Garand and M-1 Carbine (in ARVN service). The USMC hung onto their M-14's past the point were the army switched over. (I don't know if that was USMC preference or because of a lack of M-16's to arm the USCM. I suspect a bit of both).
The early U.S. advisors and Special Forces also used a variety of non-standard weapons as well, mainly left overs from WWII. From what I've read, it seems to me that if a U.S. advisor or SF unit got it's hands on something unique they wanted to use, and could get a supply of ammo for it, they'd use it until the ammo ran out or they were ordered not to use it anymore. In addition to the fairly common "Swedish K" SMG (and the U.S. S&W 76 copy), I've seen references to U.S. advisors or SF teams using German MP-40's, Chinese PPsH SMG copies, and other odd stuff.
The VC used anything they could get their hands on, especially early on before they were really being supplied from the North. As the war progressed, their weaponry was slowly upgraded with weapons brought from NV into SV via the Ho Chi Minh trail.
Early Viet Minh and early Viet Cong used mainly WWII era weapons: There were a lot of left over Japanese WWII weapons. They also used a lot of captured French weapons, especially when they were still fighting the French, but even later into the war. We're talking about French MAS rifles, MAT-49 SMG's, and things like that. Many of the captured MAT-49 SMG's were later rechambered in 7.62 (Pistol) instead of 9mm, for ease of ammo resupply.
The Mosin Nagant was another fairly common rifle for the VC early on. I believe these were Soviet aid exports. Of course, the VC being guerillas, would always use whatever they could capture from ARVN or U.S. troops or otherwise scrounge up. So, if the U.S. or ARVN used it, expect for the VC to have some as well.
Later, when the VC started getting regular supplies from the North, they used more Chinese built SKS rifles and Chinese built AK-47's (Chinese Type 56).
When the U.S. started sending in "regular" troops, in large units, instead of just advisors and SF teams, the weapons became more standardized. The early units used the M-14, with the XM-16E1 and then the M-16A1 becoming standard for many units sometime around '65 - '66. It did take time to make the transition, so both rifles were in use at the same time.
The grenade lauchers included the M-79 single shot launcher, an experimental 3 shot launcher that was tested in country (very few), and later an experimental underbarrel launcher that was withdrawn after combat use proved that it was not durable enough. The M-203 underbarrel launcher came around late in the war, after the first failed underbarrel launcher.
The standard U.S. Army pistol was the 1911A1. Army helicopter pilots were often issued a .38 Special S&W, although many acquired 1911A1's later. Army tunnel rates liked the .38 Special revolvers when they could get them, but most probably used the 1911A1 .45 as it was more readily available. The 9mm Browning High Power was a favorite of SF types.
Don't forget the South Koreans, the Australians, and other countries sent troops to Vietnam as well. There was a lot of different stuff used in the war.
My understanding is that pretty much *anything* made up 'till then turned up in Vietnam at one point or another.
The early U.S. advisors used a lot of U.S. WWII weapons, as did the ARVN troops the U.S. was advising. A lot of M-1 Garands were rebuilt in U.S. arsenals to keep the supply of foreign military aid to Vietnam flowing. The Garand was particularly ill-suited for the Vietnamese because many were of very small stature.
Later when the Garands were replaced with AR-15/M-16's, the Garands still in the rebuild pipeline were retained stateside. Many were rebuilt, put into storage, and never issued again. Some were later released under the DCM or CMP programs. I have one that went through that 60's era rebuild that I got from the CMP.
Early AR-15's were issued to U.S. advisors and Vietnemese troops before the U.S. military even planned to adopt the weapon itself. The AR-15 was smaller and lighter and had less recoil then the Garand, so it worked better for the Vietnamese troops. The suitability of the AR-15/M-16 as foreign aid to Vietnam was one of the things that kept that rifle program alive early on. The U.S. military didn't want it for itself, but was willing to let the ARVN troops use it.
The later models, the XM-16E1, USAF M-16, and US Army M-16A1 became the standard U.S. and ARVN weapon in the mid-sixties, largely replacing the M-14 (in U.S. service) and the M-1 Garand and M-1 Carbine (in ARVN service). The USMC hung onto their M-14's past the point were the army switched over. (I don't know if that was USMC preference or because of a lack of M-16's to arm the USCM. I suspect a bit of both).
The early U.S. advisors and Special Forces also used a variety of non-standard weapons as well, mainly left overs from WWII. From what I've read, it seems to me that if a U.S. advisor or SF unit got it's hands on something unique they wanted to use, and could get a supply of ammo for it, they'd use it until the ammo ran out or they were ordered not to use it anymore. In addition to the fairly common "Swedish K" SMG (and the U.S. S&W 76 copy), I've seen references to U.S. advisors or SF teams using German MP-40's, Chinese PPsH SMG copies, and other odd stuff.
The VC used anything they could get their hands on, especially early on before they were really being supplied from the North. As the war progressed, their weaponry was slowly upgraded with weapons brought from NV into SV via the Ho Chi Minh trail.
Early Viet Minh and early Viet Cong used mainly WWII era weapons: There were a lot of left over Japanese WWII weapons. They also used a lot of captured French weapons, especially when they were still fighting the French, but even later into the war. We're talking about French MAS rifles, MAT-49 SMG's, and things like that. Many of the captured MAT-49 SMG's were later rechambered in 7.62 (Pistol) instead of 9mm, for ease of ammo resupply.
The Mosin Nagant was another fairly common rifle for the VC early on. I believe these were Soviet aid exports. Of course, the VC being guerillas, would always use whatever they could capture from ARVN or U.S. troops or otherwise scrounge up. So, if the U.S. or ARVN used it, expect for the VC to have some as well.
Later, when the VC started getting regular supplies from the North, they used more Chinese built SKS rifles and Chinese built AK-47's (Chinese Type 56).
When the U.S. started sending in "regular" troops, in large units, instead of just advisors and SF teams, the weapons became more standardized. The early units used the M-14, with the XM-16E1 and then the M-16A1 becoming standard for many units sometime around '65 - '66. It did take time to make the transition, so both rifles were in use at the same time.
The grenade lauchers included the M-79 single shot launcher, an experimental 3 shot launcher that was tested in country (very few), and later an experimental underbarrel launcher that was withdrawn after combat use proved that it was not durable enough. The M-203 underbarrel launcher came around late in the war, after the first failed underbarrel launcher.
The standard U.S. Army pistol was the 1911A1. Army helicopter pilots were often issued a .38 Special S&W, although many acquired 1911A1's later. Army tunnel rates liked the .38 Special revolvers when they could get them, but most probably used the 1911A1 .45 as it was more readily available. The 9mm Browning High Power was a favorite of SF types.
Don't forget the South Koreans, the Australians, and other countries sent troops to Vietnam as well. There was a lot of different stuff used in the war.
Shung
Member
so is my M16A1 lower..
max popenker
Member
I believe that VC had plenty of ex-French weapons, incl. MAT-49 subguns (some were converted to 7.62x25Tok), MAC 1924/29 LMGs and MAS 49/56 rifles
Also, lots of Chinese-made, soviet-designed guns like SKS / Type 56 carbines, AK / Type 56 assault rifles, and PPSh / Type 51 subguns.
Also, lots of Chinese-made, soviet-designed guns like SKS / Type 56 carbines, AK / Type 56 assault rifles, and PPSh / Type 51 subguns.
Vern Humphrey
Member
By '66, when I started my first tour, the standard weapon for advisers was the M2 Carbine, no exceptions. Mine got wrapped around a tree and I carried a Garand from then on.
Fred Fuller
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lpl (Let the dead threads bury the dead...)
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