Garands in Vietnam?

[offthepaper]

I was wondering, when the US entered into the Vietnam War the M14 was in place as the US standard issue rifle. But since we also were supplying the South Vietnam forces with weapons, it seems likely to me that the SV forces would have been supplied with M1 Garands (I'm making an assumption). Can anyone verify this, and also, when the M16's were introduced to US troops, were the SV forces upgraded with the M14's, or were they given something else?
thanks.
**also
anyone with personal experience in that war, what were some of the various weapons you saw some of the other forces fighting with?
thanks again.

 

[savetheclaypigeons]

The M1 proved an excellent rifle throughout its service in World War II and the Korean War. The Japanese even developed a copy for their own use near the end of World War II, but it never reached production. Surplus M1 rifles also armed many nations of the free world in World War II and postwar, including Germany, Italy and Japan. Some Garands were still being used in the Vietnam War in 1963; despite the M14's official adoption in 1957, it was not until 1965 the changeover from the M1 Garand was completed in the active-duty component of the Army (with the exception of the sniper variants, which were introduced in WWII and saw action in Korea and Vietnam). In other components of the armed forces, such as the Army Reserve, Army National Guard and the Navy, Garands continued to serve into the 1970s or longer. For example, photos of Ohio Army National Guard troops at the Kent State shootings in May 1970 clearly show Garands.


http://209.85.207.104/search?q=cach...e+Garands+in+Vietnam&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=1&gl=us
wiki.... not a 100% reliable source but a great starting point

 

[mokin]

I've seen a photo of an Army advisor accompanied by an individual (SV, non military) armed with an M1. The photo was dated 1964 (I think). The uniform, or lack thereof, made me think it could have been earlier. Sorry for the lack of detail. Maybe someone else has seen this photo or one like it?

 

[paintballdude902]

alot of the m1 carbines were used by the sv....actually i think the m2 would be more precise

 

[CH47gunner]

Early 1970, the ARVN's were pretty much all armed with M16's. Saw a few with M1 Carbines tho. Never saw an ARVN with an M14 either.
I flew missions for the Australian Army for a couple of days, out of a place called Ham Tan, in III Corps. The Aussies were all carrying FN-FAL's.

Bruce

 

[MudPuppy]

I've seen a few photos of ARVN with M1 Garands (little guys with a big rifle, usually a nearby US SF guy--that is, a BIG guy--with the little black M-16).

Don't recall ever seeing ARVN with a M14 though...hmm, wonder why that is. I'm guess surplus foreign aid leftovers of M1s.

 

[gunnerh]

In 1967/8 I saw a number of ARVN with M1/M2 carbines and a few M1 rifles. The US Coast Guard units I served with had M1's, M1A1 .45s and M2 carbines. When I went back in 1969 most everbody seem to have M16's.

 

[Trebor]

The U.S. supplied ARVN units and local South Vietnamese militia with Garands and Carbines and even sometimes BAR's and Thompsons.

U.S. advisors would sometimes also carry these weapons when working with South Vietnamese troops for ease of ammo supply, common training purposes, etc.

When the M-16 was introduced in theater the M-14 was still being issued by the Marines. They continued to use the M-14 for awhile after the U.S. army in Vietnam had pretty much completely switched over to the M-16.

Once the M-16 was firmly established with U.S. troops, the M-14 was reserved primarily for U.S. troops in Europe for NATO standardization.

This is all from what I've read over the years. I wasn't even born when we got involved in Vietnam.

 

[Neo-Luddite]

Ask Vern Humphrey on this.

 

[Zip06]

I got there in 1963 and the ARVN had carbines (M1 and M2), Garands, BARs and I saw some Thompsons and one M-3 grease gun. My initial issue was an M-2 Carbine.

 

[BLUEDOT72]

30 Cal Weapons in RVN.

One interesting item about the 30 Cal U.S. weapons in the hands of Vietnamese forces was that a great many were converted to shoot the .308 (M-14 & M-60) round. I saw BAR's, Light 30's and M-1s that had either been rebarreled or had a bushing set into the chamber.( I remember having a technical data sheet on this process once but I sure don't have it now) As I recall, either an epoxy or an extremely high-pressure load ( or both) was used to make the chamber thing-a-ma-jig permanent. The Light-30 machine gun used regular M-60 belts but they had to be reversed with the link opening UP. I was with a Seabee unit that got into country before all of our organic equipment got there, so we went on the scrounge. We borrowed these weapons through the Naval advisory folks at the Vietnamese Naval Base at Bien Thuy in 1969, but I don't remember the magazine situation with the M-1 and BARs but I distinctly remember reversing the belts for the light-30 Machine guns.

But, we had PF troops assigned to us who had regular 30-06 BARs and M-1's as well as 30 Carbines and M-79's.

The Seabees were issued M-16's in about 1968 after transitioning from the old 30 cal. weapons in about 1962-63. Another interesting fact was that the Coast Guard Reserve in Santa Barbara, Cal, in 1963 timeframe had AR-15's. I know because I borrowed several for familiarization firing for our small Units deploying into South East Asia. There were no M-16s available at any Marine or navy unit in SoCal at that time.

 

[Willy M38]

My dad was a MP in the ARVN. According to him he was issued a Garands during basic training. M14 was rare among SV soldier. Usually the guy that carry M14 are either special force or a hand me down kind of weapon. But by the time he graduate from MP school he was issed standard Colt 1911 and good old M16 for patrol, prison escort or any special event (like national holiday). He said secret service always empty his magazine when ever he on duty near the South Viet Nam presidential palace. I have picture of him with his M16, and with the Garands during basic training. let me find it and i will post them up.

 

[HorseSoldier]

Can anyone verify this, and also, when the M16's were introduced to US troops, were the SV forces upgraded with the M14's, or were they given something else?

The ARVN was initially provided basic surplus WW2/Korean vintage kit from the US -- Garands, carbines, etc. A lot of the small statured Vietnamese troops had trouble with the Garand (and BAR, etc.) and the carbine was reportedly much preferred.

The M14 would not have been any improvement in terms of ergonomics for Asian troops -- any problems the Garand posed were not going to be fixed by the M14. There was a push to provide the ARVN with M16s several years (1960 or so) before the first US Army or Marine unit was equipped with them (and before it was clear the US military would be adopting them at all), and some ARVN units were carrying them in combat as early as 1962 as part of the R&D program with the rifle.

 

[transformerguru]

from what i have read the Garand was primarily use early in the war. Mostly special forces were still using them. The sniper version, M1D, was used until 1968, then replace with the Remington m70, I believe(I don't have my book infront of me).

 

[Grizzly Adams]

When the M16 (junk) was first issued to the advisors and some of the Spec Ops units early on in the war, many of the troops would swap them with the ARVN for the surplus M1s and even the AKs.

 

[Byron]

In November or December 68,I was on a patrol near Bam Be Thout at the southern end of the Central Highlands. We came across an ARVN patrol,They had garands. By the way,I had no problems with my 16. Byron
D Co.,3/8th Inf,4th Inf Division,Oct 68-Oct 69

 

[mustanger98]

First off, for those who don't know me, I am not a Vietnam veteran, nor do I play one on tv. That said, in my study of small arms available in South Vietnam during the whole run of the war, M1 Garands were available on both North and South sides of the war. The French in NV'nam were getting military aid from the U.S. which mostly consisted of WW2 surplus and included Garands. However, the Chinese were capturing new U.S. weapons along the 38th parallel in Korea and sending them as military aid to the NV'ese and Viet Cong. Wierd war. And from what my old professor told me, that had the French complaining about our gov't's aid to them.

From the numbers of American Vietnam veterans I've conversed with over several years, it seems nobody had the number of complaints about M1's and M-14's that I've heard about M-16's. If somebody had an M-16, it seems to me they either loved it or hated it. Two of my 2nd cousins are Vietnam vets (USMC)... well Cousin Gunny had an M-14 and said it was a superb weapon. His younger brother, Cousin LanceCpl., said he had an M-16 and while it was a good rifle later in the war, it wouldn't be his first choice. Most of the complaints I've heard about the M1 Garand had to do with the possibility of doing the "en bloc shuffle" under fire after they'd trained with an M-14.

Ask Vern Humphrey on this.

I've been hoping he'd jump in on this one too.

 

[Grizzly Adams]

I'll let my first comment stand on how I fell about the issue.

 

[Hoppy590]

wasnt there some one here who reported seeing an M1 Garand in chow line in Iraq?

obviously a ceremonial rifle. but id still carry it

 

[CWL]

Garands were first used in Vietnam by the French after the US equipped them with 300K WWII surplus arms. This may have been as early as 1946 when the US was rapidly propping-up French-presence in SE Asia against the communists.

These rifles made their way down to the ARVN who never liked them because of their size compared to the average SE Asian male. The M1 carbine and later M16 was much more popular.

I believe ROK soldiers also were equipped with Garands when they first entered Vietnam.

 

[Marlin 45 carbine]

I served '68-'69 USN 2nd amphib Div. Marines had the M16, Navy men had some Garands, usually M1 Carbines, Thompsons or my fav pump 12ga.

 

[Joe Gunns]

The late gun writer col Charles Askins, a man of strong opinions and little patience, writes (Unrepentant Sinner 1985) about training the Vietnamese with M1 rifles in 1956-7 when he was there as an advisor. He notes the difficulties faced by men trying to shoot offhand a rifle that, in many cases, equaled 10% of their body weight.

 

[mustanger98]

GrizzlyAdams, I've never liked AR-15's or M-16's. It seems most of the M1 and M-14 fans I know don't like 'em either. I was simply making an observation of a few other opinions I've heard. I hope you didn't take it otherwise.

 

[critter]

I saw a TV interview (newsreel I think) of a small SV guy with an M1 standing next to him. Looked nearly as big as he was. He was asked why he carried the big ole M1 when most SV had carbines. He smiled very wide, showing his few remaining teeth, and said something to the effect that 'Many VC hide behind trees. Me get 'em!'

Warmed my heart.

 

[redman900]

check out shotgun news

This months Shotgun News has a piece on Garands in Vietnam, good info