Guns, tools or dangerous weapons? What is your view and why?
- Thread starter TCB in TN
- Start date
- Status
Millwright
Member
Don't own any "dangerous guns", myself. I either fix them or junk them !! >MW
oldfool
Member
I thunk I was the only one here old enough to remember Venn !
but if doing Venn diagrams, you could optionally include some circles labeled "design intent"
subjectively a tad more complex
(logic is not as objective as mathematics alone would imply, never was, you know; humans never were rational beings, just beings who rationalize)
but if doing Venn diagrams, you could optionally include some circles labeled "design intent"
subjectively a tad more complex
(logic is not as objective as mathematics alone would imply, never was, you know; humans never were rational beings, just beings who rationalize)
MinnMooney
Member
Let's put it into some sort of rateable perspective. I spend equal time shooting, mowing, chain-sawing and reading novels.
Number of times hurt from each :
Shooting : 0
Mowing : 5
Chain-sawing : 2
Reading Novels : 1*
That makes shooting as my safest activity followed closely by reading novels. Damn that mowing the lawn!
* I fell asleep and rolled off the couch.
Number of times hurt from each :
Shooting : 0
Mowing : 5
Chain-sawing : 2
Reading Novels : 1*
That makes shooting as my safest activity followed closely by reading novels. Damn that mowing the lawn!
* I fell asleep and rolled off the couch.
Guncollector1982
Member
- Joined
- Jun 21, 2010
- Messages
- 80
Hey Minn....your lawn mower aint a Husqvarna is it..... they make chainsaws to...
they make chainsaws to...toycruiser71
Member
It's a weapon. Gun's were originally designed for two purposes. Putting food on the table and killing your enemy. As firearms evolved, so did their uses. We started shooting for enjoyment, punching holes in paper and other shooting sports, skeet etc. What we call them is strictly semantics. If a person wants to call them tools, weapons, paperweights, it doesn't matter, they will always be weapons first and foremost. And there is absolutely nothing wrong with that, thank God and our Founding Fathers. I thoroughly enjoy owning and shooting my weapons.
All Horses are Mammals.
Not all Mammals are Horses.
If we could grasp that, we ought to be able to grasp that all Guns are 'Tools', even if not all Tools are Guns.
Tangible Weapons of any sort, are various kinds of Tools.
'Tool', is the Super Category...under which secondary categories or classifications are organized.
Just like in Taxonomy...there are hierarchies of Category and Brachiation.
Not all Mammals are Horses.
If we could grasp that, we ought to be able to grasp that all Guns are 'Tools', even if not all Tools are Guns.
Tangible Weapons of any sort, are various kinds of Tools.
'Tool', is the Super Category...under which secondary categories or classifications are organized.
Just like in Taxonomy...there are hierarchies of Category and Brachiation.
Hondo 60
Member
Guns are BOTH tools & dangerous weapons.
It all depends on who's holding it.
A responsible adult who's out hunting or target shooting will have the necessary tool in his/her hand.
Some punk who's up to no good will have a dangerous weapon in their hand
It all depends on who's holding it.
A responsible adult who's out hunting or target shooting will have the necessary tool in his/her hand.
Some punk who's up to no good will have a dangerous weapon in their hand
danez71
Member
(As stated, I dont like the term tool or weapon.)
So, when you ("you" generally speaking) want someone to hand you a screw driver.... do you ask them to hand you a "tool"?
When you're out shooting with your buddies.... do you ask them if you can shoot their tool? (no pun intended ladies and gents)
Same thing.... do you ask them if you can shoot their weapon?
For a group to (typically) be SO insistant on using the 'correct' term "mags/magazines" I find it almost odd that they want to call a gun a tool.
Im not trying be a pie-hole... seriously, whats the 'advantage' of calling it a tool and why the double standard as compared to magazine and clip?
So, when you ("you" generally speaking) want someone to hand you a screw driver.... do you ask them to hand you a "tool"?
When you're out shooting with your buddies.... do you ask them if you can shoot their tool? (no pun intended ladies and gents)
Same thing.... do you ask them if you can shoot their weapon?
For a group to (typically) be SO insistant on using the 'correct' term "mags/magazines" I find it almost odd that they want to call a gun a tool.
Im not trying be a pie-hole... seriously, whats the 'advantage' of calling it a tool and why the double standard as compared to magazine and clip?
scythefwd
Member
danez71 - Actually, I have asked to fire someone's weapon. It was an AR, and I didn't know what caliber it was chambered in. All I know is that is sounded like it was silenced compared to my .308
I'll repeat myself - constitutional protection only accrues if the gun is a weapon.
There is not a constitutional protection of instruments that are tools for uses other than as a weapon.
I know ONE tool usage of a firearm and that instrument is not allowable to the general public.
There is not a constitutional protection of instruments that are tools for uses other than as a weapon.
I know ONE tool usage of a firearm and that instrument is not allowable to the general public.
Zoidberg523
Member
Absolutely - the Bill of Rights protects firearms as a weapon. However, the term "weapon" falls under the larger, broader heading of "tools".
chaplain tom
Member
As for guns being dangerous weapons, I agree an earlier post that read something like this. "I don't own any dangerous guns, I either fix them or junk them." And the philosophy that guns are not dangerous, people are. That great American philosopher Archie Bunker once said when Gloria confronted him with stats on how many people had been killed with guns the year before, "Would it make you feel any better little goil if they was pushed outta windows?" I believe that says it all...
The gun is a subset of a tool definition is nice semantics. However, the tool argument is used not as an academic, semantic debate but by some as an RKBA defense.
The gun is not dangerous as it is a tool. Look a chainsaw is dangerous.
Thus, please Mr. Anti - don't take away or regulate my not so dangerous tool.
But again dangerous tools for construction and chemistry are heavily regulated. You don't walk into Walmart and buy a gallon of cyanide.
Also, as I said before, if you try to convince someone not of the choir that a gun is just a tool and shouldn't be regulated - they will think you are quite silly. They will then probably ignore other pro-RKBA arguments.
You cannot protect gun rights by trying to downplay their use as weapons.
The sporting argument failed in the UK and Australia - no one bought it.
The gun is not dangerous as it is a tool. Look a chainsaw is dangerous.
Thus, please Mr. Anti - don't take away or regulate my not so dangerous tool.
But again dangerous tools for construction and chemistry are heavily regulated. You don't walk into Walmart and buy a gallon of cyanide.
Also, as I said before, if you try to convince someone not of the choir that a gun is just a tool and shouldn't be regulated - they will think you are quite silly. They will then probably ignore other pro-RKBA arguments.
You cannot protect gun rights by trying to downplay their use as weapons.
The sporting argument failed in the UK and Australia - no one bought it.
Zoidberg523
Member
I agree, and I also agree that that approach is foolish, as the RKBA needs no defense or reason - it is a right. However, here, among other fellow gun enthusiasts, a debate in semantics is exactly what it amounts to.
We all (I assume?) believe in the RKBA, and so this discussion becomes, not a debate over the defense of the 2nd Amendment, but a simple debate over classification.
I FULLY agree. As I stated previously, they are protected as weapons. However, scientifically, "weapons" (as handheld devices that help accomplish a task [Webster's definition of a tool] - be it cutting, putting holes in things, or even killing) belong under the heading of "tools".
danez71
Member
I agree.
Everyone needs to quit defining "tool". The word "tool" is not in the 2A. This isnt a "tool" forum. And the anti's are trying to ban your "tools"
Sir William Blackstone, 1723-1780, wrote on common law shortly before the Declaration of Independence was written. Blackstone law book/legal dictionary is the standard still today.
Look up "arms" in Blackstones or any other legal dictionary and see what it says. Hint: "Tools" are not mentioned but "guns" and "firearms" are (as well as "weapons").
The 2A says "arms". We all know that... but many here keep defining "tool" for some unknown reason of which is not even relevant to the 2A.
I'll ask for the 3rd time.... what benefit does calling them "tools" provide? No one has even tried to answered that.
Seriously. I'd like to hear that side of the arguement
Based on dictionary definitions:
A firearm is a tool for a professional (cop, guard, soldier, etc.) in that it is part of the equipment he/she must have to preform his/her duty.
A firearm is a toy (or, more broadly; recreational equipment) to a hobbiest shooter ( shooting sports)
A firearm is a weapon for self preservation (whether killing food or defending self). And it cannot be readily used as a tool.
Historically, it's primary design function was to kill, remotely.
All other tool's and toy's primary design function is NOT to cause injury or to kill.
Even the knife, in the grand scheme of things, is a weapon.. Historically it's primary use was to kill (not as remotely as a firearm). After it killed something, with the help of the operator, it could also be used to disassemble the kill into more edible chunks. which made it also a tool, I suppose.
A spear is a weapon, a knife to which a stick has been added, in order to kill somewhat more remotely. Cannot readily be used as a tool.
An arrow is a weapon, a small knife attached to a shorter stick, propelled by either a sling stick, or a bow... to kill even more remotely. Cannot readily be used as a tool.
At the far end of the spectrum, we have bombs... they are also weapons, designed to kill even more remotely, and in larger quantities. Canot be readily used as a tool.
Wow, I said alot in my first post... but I think I managed to say what I think makes the distinction... from a historical perspective.
A firearm is a tool for a professional (cop, guard, soldier, etc.) in that it is part of the equipment he/she must have to preform his/her duty.
A firearm is a toy (or, more broadly; recreational equipment) to a hobbiest shooter ( shooting sports)
A firearm is a weapon for self preservation (whether killing food or defending self). And it cannot be readily used as a tool.
Historically, it's primary design function was to kill, remotely.
All other tool's and toy's primary design function is NOT to cause injury or to kill.
Even the knife, in the grand scheme of things, is a weapon.. Historically it's primary use was to kill (not as remotely as a firearm). After it killed something, with the help of the operator, it could also be used to disassemble the kill into more edible chunks. which made it also a tool, I suppose.
A spear is a weapon, a knife to which a stick has been added, in order to kill somewhat more remotely. Cannot readily be used as a tool.
An arrow is a weapon, a small knife attached to a shorter stick, propelled by either a sling stick, or a bow... to kill even more remotely. Cannot readily be used as a tool.
At the far end of the spectrum, we have bombs... they are also weapons, designed to kill even more remotely, and in larger quantities. Canot be readily used as a tool.
Wow, I said alot in my first post... but I think I managed to say what I think makes the distinction... from a historical perspective.
Harley Rider 55
Member
Tool
It allows you to accomplish something you ordinarily couldn't do without a tool. You cannot tighten the heads on an engine with your bare hands - you must have a wrench. You cannot choke a grown grizzly bear to death - but you can kill it with a firearm.
It allows you to accomplish something you ordinarily couldn't do without a tool. You cannot tighten the heads on an engine with your bare hands - you must have a wrench. You cannot choke a grown grizzly bear to death - but you can kill it with a firearm.
General Geoff
Member
Tell that to C. Dale Peterson.
Harley Rider 55
Member
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Could he tighten head bolts using the kung fu grip?
Could he tighten head bolts using the kung fu grip?
General Geoff
Member
You know... I would not bet against it.
- Status
Similar threads
- Locked