"Gura tossed machineguns under the bus! What is he, a lawyer for the Bradys?!?"

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Meaning she interprets the Constitution correctly but doesn't like what it's saying?

Meaning she was attempting to derail Heller's (Gura's) argument. This case is about handguns. You'd better believe that if (when) we get our Individual ruling and there's another case (Hughes?) concerning select fire weapons, she'll be singing a different tune.

Oral arguments before SCOTUS aren't the place for rhetorical grandstanding. It's a knife fight. If you're trying to win, statements should be pointed at the case at hand. Questions might not be, and are very telling.

The only thing that comes out of this that matters is the ruling and the written majority opinion. Gura correctly fought introducing anything beyond the scope of the case.
 
I think, and I could certainly be wrong, that Mr. Gura’s "rising to te bait", re his comments on machineguns, NOT the subject of this USSC matter, might have been a mistake, however as above noted, that's simply what I think.

More important, and troubling too, could be the following. His reference to "plastic handguns manufactured to escape detection", no such handguns exist, and even POLYMER FRAME GLOCKS, show up quite clearly on "airport metal detectors". Also his reference to the constitutionality of "some gun ownership licensing" is problematic.

Such licensing would obviously bring with it, registration. As a matter of historical fact, and record, gun registration leads to confiscation. Gura lived and worked at one time in California, and California is one such place, where registration of guns led to/facilitated their confiscation. Has he forgotten that? One wonders.

He may have had other things in mind re these statements, see 19 March Pittsburgh Post-Gazette, however I submit that these statements could work to the disadvantage of the pro-gun side, giving ammunition to our enemies.
 
Alan
For all the weight these oral arguments carry - particularly on things not specifically applicable to the case - he might have just as well referred to the existence of UFOs with Earl Schibes paint jobs. The MG topic was off subject and exactly relevant to this case, even if the Justice took it there.
 
you have to have someone who is harmed by the law to bring a challenge to the law.
In the case of MGs, it's no different from how Mr. Heller gained "standing": you have to ask permission to get one, which WILL be denied. Find an otherwise willing seller & CLEO, file a BATFE Form 4 to buy an M4 (or a Form 1 to convert an existing AR15), get rejected, file a case on grounds that the rejection is the harm. That's exactly what Mr. Heller did. No criminal activity needed.
 
The only thing that comes out of this that matters is the ruling and the written majority opinion.

Not always, Justice Holmes' dissenting opinions dealing with procedural due process were later used as the legal basis for numerous court rulings that eroded and later overturned Lochner and E. C. Knight.

Certainly we want to chalk up a "W" for this case, but a proper dissenting opinion can be a strong tool to have on one's side.
 
however much we want to say that if Heller vs dc comes out in the favor of everybody owning firearms, wont we still be forced to do the permit and registration crapola?
In theory the NFA can be used as grounds to show that registration is good.. ie "we forced the tommy guns to get registered, and that made the gangsters stop using them" is that just simplifying things a bit much?
 
Alan:
Handguns capable of evading detection have been outlawed since ~1984 on the federal level, the law was set to expire in ~2004 and was renewed before that expiration took place.

Kharn
 
is that just simplifying things a bit much?
A little. Justices want to make a holding that affects as little as possible... this is important for the Court to maintain its legitimacy because if it moves out of step with the nation, the other branches will just ignore it or force it through political pressure to bend (see FDR's court packing plan of '37 - where the justices were threatened to get behind the New Deal or see the number of seats to SCOTUS expand from 9 to 15... obviously with all FDR New Deal friendly appointees). If you overturn what the vast majority of jurisdictions have accepted, then there will be cries of "Activist Judges!" and a big political push to see them removed, marginalized, or replaced.

So look at the legal REALITY of gun control TODAY. There are bans. There is registration. There is restriction, regulation, and control. Not in every jurisdiction, of course, but in many if not most. SCOTUS needs to present a holding that affirms the step they want to go in- the affirmation of an individual right and the unconstitutionality of a total ban on handguns- while affirming (if not expressly, implicitly) those measures already in place. This way they make a decisive step without rocking the world and losing relevance and power. Then, as challenges arrive, they can take further steps towards the direction they want to go, incrementally.

There's nothing new about this. The other side knew that passing gun control was an incremental battle used to define the American perception of the gun slowly over time. The same holds here for us. You rephrase the 2nd as an individual right as important as Free Speech and expressly stated and protected moreso than, say, privacy/abortion, then American perception changes. Overtime even dissenters can come to terms with such a decision and the court can continue to move. Go to fast, you're out of step and anything you do will be seen as purely political and simply get overturned by the next court that comes along.

Again, there IS registration there ARE bans. While certainly some of SCOTUS want nothing more than to overturn these tomorrow, they know better. They know they have to express a legal rule that is in step with TODAY'S regulations so that their holding is seen as legitimate. Then they can add future holdings to enforce the point and tear down gun control.

To use an example, imagine arguing with a hysterical person who is upset at you even if you did nothing wrong. If you open up by stating the objective truth that you did nothing and that their hysteria is unfounded, you'll likely get stonewalled if not make them more upset. Instead, you first apologize- embracing their world view for the sake of communication- then as they calm down, they come around and see that you did nothing and that they were upset about nothing.

This kind of "apologetics" is exactly what Courts have to do. Retroactively produce a rule that reflects the present reality, then use that rule to shape the future through moderate and continued adjustments. If they rule the way some want them to, it's true that- briefly- as a matter of law registration/bans/etc. would be unconstitutional... but the impact that would have on so many jurisdictions would result in a political move that I guarantee would make that holding short-lived. Slow and steady wins here.
 
Probably because he wants a Thompson :)

if that were the case, my respect for him just increased a notch

although to be fair, you can still own a Thompson, just semi.
 
Hey if any of you folks want to send me $25,000. I will buy and attempt to register a machinegun in Delaware.

I will be turned down because even though the Delaware Constitution has the right to keep and bear arms for any legitimate purpose, Delaware doesnt allow anyone to possess or register an NFA weapon as they are outlawed in DE.
 
That brings us back to why Heller happened in DC:
While you certainly could take on Delaware's ban on NFA stuff, the feds won't help because the "right" to NFA stuff has not been established federally. Better that any of you folks want to send me $1500 and I'll try to get a NEW machinegun in Georgia (very NFA friendly), get my BATFE Form 4 denied, and take the issue to federal court on exactly the same grounds Mr. Heller did. Being a purely federal issue then, not complicated by state bans overlapping federal bans/regulations, and based on a very recent SCOTUS case, that should get things cleared up easier at a higher level. THEN when Mr. Levy compels Chicago & Illinois to respect the 2ndA via the 14th, then YOU can follow up with compelling Delaware to respect the 2nd re: machineguns on the same grounds.

That's the theory, anyway. We'll see what happens in June.
 
Master Blaster says:
I will be turned down because even though the Delaware Constitution has the right to keep and bear arms for any legitimate purpose, Delaware doesnt allow anyone to possess or register an NFA weapon as they are outlawed in DE.

The above is what needs to be worked over by the court so reasonable standards won't allow the gun control folks to ban from private citizens a weapon the government allows their police and military forces to have. Though I guess the 2A would have to be incorporated via the 14th A in order to actually give meaning to the 2A in the states.:)
 
Fourthly, it's obvious to the judges how similar the DC, Chicago, NYC, and 922(o) bans are -
NYC does not have a ban on handguns. However, NYC may be a model for DC in that NYC has tons of rules, regulations, and red tap. The application is a proctological exam and is not even shall issue (to the best of my knowledge). Applications must be hand-delivered to 1 Police Plaza in downtown Manhattan... a major inconvenience. Ridiculous licensing and application fees, few gun shops, fewer ranges (thanks to zoning)...

NYC is a pantheon of regulation. But no bans. Prohibition by regulation is how they do it.
 
however much we want to say that if Heller vs dc comes out in the favor of everybody owning firearms, wont we still be forced to do the permit and registration crapola?
Murdoch v. Pennsylvania?
'no state may charge a license fee or tax for a right that is federally protected.'

I take that to read that unless registration and licensing is totally free, it would not be constitutional....unless the judicial system wants to wait another 70 years to touch a 2nd Amendment case or overturn murdoch
 
Perhaps Alan Gura can explain it better than anyone... from an email...

Thanks for your support.

The solution to 922(o) will have to be political in the end. The fact is,
outside the gun community, the concept of privately owned machine guns is
intolerable to American society and 100% of all federal judges. If I had
suggested in any way -- including, by being evasive and indirect and fudging
the answer -- that machine guns are the next case and this is the path to
dumping 922(o) -- I'd have instantly lost all 9 justices. Even Scalia.
There wasn't any question of that, at all, going in, and it was confirmed in
unmistakable fashion when I stood there a few feet from the justices and
heard and saw how they related to machine guns. It was not just my opinion,
but one uniformly held by ALL the attorneys with whom we bounced ideas off,
some of them exceedingly bright people. Ditto for the people who wanted me
to declare an absolute right, like I'm there to waive some sort of GOA
bumper sticker. That's a good way to lose, too, and look like a moron in
the process.

I didn't make the last 219 years of constitutional law and I am not
responsible for the way that people out there -- and on the court-- feel
about machine guns. Some people in our gun rights community have very....
interesting.... ways of looking at the constitution and the federal courts.
I don't need to pass judgment on it other than to say, it's not the reality
in which we practice law. When we started this over five years ago, the
collective rights theory was the controlling law in 47 out of 50 states.
Hopefully, on next year's MBE, aspiring lawyers will have to bubble in the
individual rights answer to pass the test. I know you and many others out
there can appreciate that difference and I thank you for it, even if we
can't get EVERYTHING that EVERYONE wants. Honestly some people just want to
stay angry. I'm glad you're not among them.

You want to change 922(o)? Take a new person shooting. Work for "climate
change."

Thanks,
Alan
 
Thanks for posting that, Bubbles. People needed to see it.
( I do hope none of the Justices see it, however. :eek: )

Not that I expect it to change some people's minds though... They want it all, and they want it NOW. :rolleyes:



J.C.
 
At least one federal judge could tolerate legal machineguns. Justice Alito voted to overturn 922(o) when he was on the court of appeals.
 
The solution to 922(o) will have to be political in the end.

Guess that means there will never be a solution. Other than the heroic Ron Paul, has anyone ever introduced a bill to loosen or eliminate the MG freeze?
I didn't make the last 219 years of constitutional law and I am not
responsible for the way that people out there -- and on the court-- feel
about machine guns. Some people in our gun rights community have very....
interesting.... ways of looking at the constitution and the federal courts.

What is he stabbing at with this?
 
Ratzinger,

Last 15+ years have seen a substantive change in the way folks look at firearms and associated rights. There is CCW in the majority of states, the AWB has never been re-instated, we have a positive 2A ruling (potentially) in the offing etc.

These changes occurred because of a combination of societal and political shift.

Society, law and politics are a slow moving avalanche that can be diverted but takes time, effort and money. Yes 922(o) can be rolled back but it will take time and vigilance to ensure no back sliding.
 
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