H&R Defender 38 inquiry

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The gun is worth$300 not much more. Your 870 .410 if like new is worth closer to$500 and a bit much weight and operation wise for most 80 year old women. . I would keep the 870 and cut the barrel to 18 1/2" if you need a defense weapon and find her some .38 S& W which you can online if you live in a free state. Show her how to use it and if the ammo costs $50+shipping. Which it probably well today tell her to will it to you or when she gets too weak for it. As mentioned a 5 000 pellet .410 load is very effective out of an 18" barrel. Very similar to a whole cylinder full of those 38 S&W out of a 4" barrel !
 
Yes- The .38 S&W gives good SOFT target penetration, usually at upper end of the FBI limit.

Too bad the heavier 178 or 200 gr loads are difficult to obtain currently.
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My bellwether for bad times in the firearms marketplace has always been the price and availability of “premium”. .32S&W Long. This is how bad things are right now:
https://www.gunbroker.com/item/890068391

I’m not as concerned with the price as with the number of bidders.
 
True ; guns stored in Crown Royal bags many years MAY be worth more ! :)

Its a special millennium 2000 edition bag too, that has to add value. Half gallon size of course!

@GeoDudeFlorida
Too bad the H&R is not 32SWL, I have at least 100 rounds of that and a couple hundred brass cases. They fit my 32CNP Colt PP special.

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If y'all didn't catch it earlier, the serial is 12989. I've seen three dated examples online surrounding that serial, putting it in 1943 or 1944 manufacture.
 
Not to be to nit-picky, that table is for rifles and shotguns, H&R pistols don’t use a date code letter.
That’s why I purchased Mr. Goeforths book.
My 923 (R date code) and 732 (AE date code) show them. I was told that revolvers before 1940 do not use date codes when I was corresponding with Mr Goeforth about my pre-Defender.

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My bellwether for bad times in the firearms marketplace has always been the price and availability of “premium”. .32S&W Long. This is how bad things are right now:
https://www.gunbroker.com/item/890068391

I’m not as concerned with the price as with the number of bidders.
If you are over 70 like me, and kept note of that my hats off to you ! Of course that IS 300 rounds of good stuff .
Back before internet not many kept a stash of 300 .32 S&W Long ! I May have had that many, and still have a ton of empties and maybe a couple hundred factory loaded ones . I got molds and makings ! I got a Stevens 44 Boys rifle in .32 S&W Long with a tang sight :) and a few revolver and one exquisite Walther Semi auto Target Pistol in S&W .32 Long Rimmed :) It was my dad's "cheat" caliber in Centerfire NRA bullseye competition on East coast in the 60s - in a Colt Officers Model Match !

I keep a .38 S&W hid out while relaxing in condition White :)
 
My 923 (R date code) and 732 (AE date code) show them. I was told that revolvers before 1940 do not use date codes when I was corresponding with Mr Goeforth about my pre-Defender.

View attachment 973146
View attachment 973147
You know what the date is for that AE code don't you ? I think that was a later code, but they flip around so going by memory doesn't work for me anymore, cept on pre 64 Win 70s :)
 
If you are over 70 like me, and kept note of that my hats off to you ! Of course that IS 300 rounds of good stuff .
Back before internet not many kept a stash of 300 .32 S&W Long ! I May have had that many, and still have a ton of empties and maybe a couple hundred factory loaded ones . I got molds and makings ! I got a Stevens 44 Boys rifle in .32 S&W Long with a tang sight :) and a few revolver and one exquisite Walther Semi auto Target Pistol in S&W .32 Long Rimmed :) It was my dad's "cheat" caliber in Centerfire NRA bullseye competition on East coast in the 60s - in a Colt Officers Model Match !

I keep a .38 S&W hid out while relaxing in condition White :)
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Like I said, it’s not the price that concerns me, it’s the number of people eager to pay that price.
In .32Long target, Federal is fair, Fiocchi is pretty good, RWS Olympic is the good stuff. I would gladly pay $300 for 300 rounds of RWS Olympic (shipped) but $50/box for a $25 box of Federal is not a good deal.
 
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Its a special millennium 2000 edition bag too, that has to add value. Half gallon size of course!

@GeoDudeFlorida
Too bad the H&R is not 32SWL, I have at least 100 rounds of that and a couple hundred brass cases. They fit my 32CNP Colt PP special.

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If y'all didn't catch it earlier, the serial is 12989. I've seen three dated examples online surrounding that serial, putting it in 1943 or 1944 manufacture.
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I’d imagine the current owner’s problem with the revolver is the stiff trigger and long trigger pull. If so, maybe find something of equal value with a good, light, short trigger and small round butt. I have no clue what is available in your area but maybe it’s worth the time to look.
 
If you are over 70 like me, and kept note of that my hats off to you ! Of course that IS 300 rounds of good stuff .
Back before internet not many kept a stash of 300 .32 S&W Long ! I May have had that many, and still have a ton of empties and maybe a couple hundred factory loaded ones . I got molds and makings ! I got a Stevens 44 Boys rifle in .32 S&W Long with a tang sight :) and a few revolver and one exquisite Walther Semi auto Target Pistol in S&W .32 Long Rimmed :) It was my dad's "cheat" caliber in Centerfire NRA bullseye competition on East coast in the 60s - in a Colt Officers Model Match !

I keep a .38 S&W hid out while relaxing in condition White :)
Nah. I’m still a youngster. Pushing 60 I can see it but I don’t think it’s seen me yet. Mebbe.
I like calculating trends. It’s kind of a hobby. Unlike people mathematics never lies. :)
 
How are they any more effective than the 146 grain load? The 200 grain RNL load was introduced here in the US and then adopted by the British, who later dropped it (for reasons of international law) for the 178 grain FMJ version. Both of those faded out of production decades ago. Did either of them have a better reputation than the original, and still available, 146 grain RNL load?

I understand that there are many old, flimsy, and originally inexpensive 38 S&W revolvers still out there, and ammo makers may not want to make anything that those guns cannot handle. But given the lukewarm popularity of the other 38 S&W loadings, I didn't think they actually had much to offer. But I'm always glad to learn I am wrong so that I can stop talking nonsense. :)
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You're right. I can't imagine how a heavier bullet with a broader meplat moving at higher velocity could possibly be more effective on soft tissue. Silly me.
 
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You're right. I can't imagine how a heavier bullet with a broader meplat moving at higher velocity could possibly be more effective on soft tissue. Silly me.

These bullets do NOT move at a higher velocity. Part of the point of the 200 grain 38 S&W design was that it moved at a LOWER velocity than the 146 grain load. This was supposed to reduce its rate of spin, thus reducing its stability, thus (in conjunction with its greater length) cause it to tumble on impact, thus, in a theory that was never successfully demonstrated, increasing its stopping power. The 178 grain version was faster than the 200 grain, but still slower than the original 146 grain load. That is why the sights on Webley and Enfield revolvers are so far off when used with standard 38 S&W loads.

Second, bigger meplats don't matter, not at this level of power. That is why semi-wadcutters and Keith-style bullets weren't any better for self defense for RNL. Nor were "truncated cone" type bullets at even 9mm Luger velocities; that was actually the original 9mm Luger bullet design.

Furthermore, the 200 grain and 178 grain loads DON'T have bigger meplats. The 200 grain load had a hemispherical nose, which the British thought mattered (for no discernible reason), and the 178 grain was even pointer than the 146 grain load. The meplats on these rounds do not differ significantly from the 146 grain load.

Look, it has occurred to me that maybe 455_Hunter would like 178 or 200 grain 38 S&W loads just so his Webley, Enfield, or S&W .38-200 revolver will shoot to point of aim. But that is not relevant to this H&R 38 Defender, which was made for American ammo, nor would it improve stopping power as far as I know - which is why I asked.
 
These bullets do NOT move at a higher velocity. Part of the point of the 200 grain 38 S&W design was that it moved at a LOWER velocity than the 146 grain load. This was supposed to reduce its rate of spin, thus reducing its stability, thus (in conjunction with its greater length) cause it to tumble on impact, thus, in a theory that was never successfully demonstrated, increasing its stopping power. The 178 grain version was faster than the 200 grain, but still slower than the original 146 grain load. That is why the sights on Webley and Enfield revolvers are so far off when used with standard 38 S&W loads.

Second, bigger meplats don't matter, not at this level of power. That is why semi-wadcutters and Keith-style bullets weren't any better for self defense for RNL. Nor were "truncated cone" type bullets at even 9mm Luger velocities; that was actually the original 9mm Luger bullet design.

Furthermore, the 200 grain and 178 grain loads DON'T have bigger meplats. The 200 grain load had a hemispherical nose, which the British thought mattered (for no discernible reason), and the 178 grain was even pointer than the 146 grain load. The meplats on these rounds do not differ significantly from the 146 grain load.

Look, it has occurred to me that maybe 455_Hunter would like 178 or 200 grain 38 S&W loads just so his Webley, Enfield, or S&W .38-200 revolver will shoot to point of aim. But that is not relevant to this H&R 38 Defender, which was made for American ammo, nor would it improve stopping power as far as I know - which is why I asked.
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Current Remington "Wheel Gun" .38S&W 146gr. has a published velocity of 685 fps. That is a lab-test velocity, not a real-world, 4" revolver velocity. In a real Colt's Police Positive, it chronographs at 580-600fps. Try it for yourself. The 1940's-60's Remington 200gr. "Super Police" had a published velocity of 685fps and it actually made that from a 2" S&W Terrier - and in the British Webley, the Mk. 2 .380/200 load was required to produce 640 to 660 fps from a 4" Enfield No. 2 revolver. Remington and Winchester did use a wide round nose bullet and the Lyman 195gr. also had a wide, round meplat. Images and specifications are available in various manuals.
url=https%3A%2F%2Fi1.wp.com%2Fwww.forgottenweapons.com%2Fwp-content%2Fuploads%2F2014%2F03%2F38sw.jpg

The point was not to move slower than the 146, 145 or 150 grain loads, but to leave the barrel of a snub-nose revolver - a market the .38S&W dominated until small-frame .38Spl revolvers from Colts and S&W appeared on the scene - and tumble on impact, leaving an extensive, shock-inducing wound channel. The round wasn't meant to induce a "one-shot kill", it was meant to pacify and deter a criminal, leaving them incapacitated but alive, leading to arrest and trial. It was a very effective stopper in its time - and if you are going to use a light, handy, low-recoil, very accurate revolver today as a man-stopper, there are worse choices than the .38S&W and the 200gr. load is a good one with a long history of police and military use. But it isn't for a weak top-break design. It is for the solid-frame or strengthened top-break designs like the Enfield.

That was my point in that first post: the police- and military-style loads produce too much torque - force applied to an axial point - for older, weaker split-frame, top-break revolvers. Pressure is not the major concern, torque applied to the top-strap around the focal point of the frame hinge, and carried into the weak latch pin - the only thing holding many top-break revolver designs closed - is the primary concern. Work the force equation for yourself and see where the integral of the forces accumulate as the bullet goes down the barrel. The heavier, larger .360" diameter, 200 grain bullet moving at 660-700fps is applying considerably more torque than the 146 grain, .357" bullet of modern production with its smaller charge. The "Super Police" .38S&W loads from Winchester and Remington were designed for solid-frame revolvers and very strong actions like the Webley - which used a top stirrup to hold the action closed, not a pinned latch.

The load was in production from the 1920's up through the early 1970's (Winchester discontinued their 200gr. .38S&W load in 1971) and by police forces in India and Hong Kong into the 1980's. I have a RHKP Colt Police Positive Special and have seen - but failed to acquire, sadly - a 1980's India-contract Ruger Security Six in .380/200. That's a long time for advertising hocus-pocus to keep a failed design persisting in the commercial marketplace.
 
Pretty much all of what GeoDudeFlorida says above is different than I have read, or have ever heard, but perhaps it represents new research and I am out of date and wrong. In particular, I mean what he says about torque applied to top-break revolvers, and that the velocity of the 38-200 38 S&W load was the same as the 146 grain load, but pretty much everything he says as well.

It still seems to me that if any of the 200 or 178 grain 38 loads really had anything to offer over the standard 146 grain load, they would have achieved far wider use than they actually did. In particular, I have never heard that the tumbling-on-impact effect was ever shown to happen.

I will leave it for others to remark on his post, because I have nothing else to offer. At least I have gotten an answer to my first question, which what the 178/200 grains loads had to offer, even if that answer contradicts what I thought I knew.

Now I would like to find out where GeoDudeFlorida has read this, so I will not go around disagreeing with people if they are right.


PS - GeoDudeFlorida wrote: " I...failed to acquire...a 1980's India-contract Ruger Security Six in .380/200. That's a long time for advertising hocus-pocus to keep a failed design persisting in the commercial marketplace."

That is completely true. But it's not a long time for a bureaucracy on a tight budget to keep something in service they have a big stockpile of, or a still-functional production line for. When did the NYPD finally switch to hollow points? The 1990's? Bureaucratic resistance to change is can be a mighty force, especially when change costs money, or there is not great impetus for change (or, in the NYPD's case, PR resistance to change). The Indian cops may not have cared very much until they needed to begin shooting people more, much like the way European cops were fine with 32 ACP FMJ until the Munich Olympics, and Red Brigades and the Baader-Meinhof gang showed up.

PPS - I think S&W made a version of the Model 10, called the Model 11, for those markets too.
 
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But that is not relevant to this H&R 38 Defender, which was made for American ammo, nor would it improve stopping power as far as I know - which is why I asked.

From the Defender advertising I get the feeling that the UK market was very much an intended buyer since it specifically list the 38/200 as one of the cartridges.

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The sights pretty much suck anyway.
 
There was a version of the .38 calibre H&R called "The Bobby" making the English connexion clear.

Back when a free Englishman might lawfully own a revolver, Webley would furnish a foresight for 146 grain commercial cartridges.

I once saw at a gun show Smith and Wesson K38 barrels, new in wrap, roll marked "For 146 gr cartridge." I thought that was strange, .38 Special wadcutters are 148 gr.
It took me a long time to realize they must have been for .38 S&W K38s.
Not a catalog item that I ever saw, unlike the Model 11 M&P .38 S&W.
 
At the time the Defender was introduced the US was officially neutral. We were not at war. But we were sending supplies and ammunition and arms to Great Britain. Lend Lease was not yet a law but sales to Great Britain & Canada were quite common.
 
There was a version of the .38 calibre H&R called "The Bobby" making the English connexion clear.

Back when a free Englishman might lawfully own a revolver, Webley would furnish a foresight for 146 grain commercial cartridges.

I once saw at a gun show Smith and Wesson K38 barrels, new in wrap, roll marked "For 146 gr cartridge." I thought that was strange, .38 Special wadcutters are 148 gr.
It took me a long time to realize they must have been for .38 S&W K38s.
Not a catalog item that I ever saw, unlike the Model 11 M&P .38 S&W.

A) The version of the Defender that was called the Bobby and was purchased by the British was a 6-shot 32 S&W Long revolver. That is strange and I have never understood why the British bought those instead of 38 S&W /.380 Enfield pistols, but that's what they did. There's a couple of pictures here: https://flicense.blogspot.com/2017/12/h-bobby-revolvers-for-unarmed-uk-police.html

JIm Hauff, who finished Bill Goforth's book about H&R before his own death, posted about them at The Firearms Forum, and probably elsewhere as well: https://www.thefirearmsforum.com/threads/h-r-mk-ii.105894/

The British never bought H&R 38 S&W revolvers as far as I know, although they may have wound up with some as equipment on Liberty Ships. IIRC, the Norwegians got some that way.

B) The sights were lousy on the early Defenders, but at some point during the war H&R redesigned the gun and gave it the same adjustable sights as the Model 999 Sportsman. They should have called it the "38 S&W Combat Masterpiece". :)

C) I think people in the S&W forum would be interested to hear about those S&W "146 grain" revolver barrels. Or they could tell you more about them.

D) Per jar's post above, I have never heard, before GeoDudeFlorida posted it here, that American top break revolvers could not handle the 200 grain "Super Police" 38 S&W load. He states that it was loaded to the same velocity as the 146 grain load, but both cartridge reference books I have (Bussard's "Ammo Encyclopedia". 6th edition, and Barne's and Woodward's "Cartridges of the World", 16th edition) say that the 146 grain load had a muzzle velocity of 685 fps (just as GeoDudeFlorida says) but that the 200 grain load's MV was 630 fps. I have no idea what the implies in terms of chamber pressure or torque stress on the barrel.
 
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A. I did not know that. I guess it was taken as a supplement to the .32 Webleys instead of the .38.

D. One of the old time gun writers reported kicking the latch right off a top break .38 with the 200 gr Super Police. Of course it might have been so worn it would not have stood much 146, either.
 
When I acquired my S&W Lend-Lease .380/200 I did some research on how to load for it. Mostly here but other places as well. Here are some of the links I saved - I only saved the ones with actual loading data and links to suppliers, like Matt's Bullets and MBC. They are long threads and you have to follow the attached links but it is all good data.

https://www.thehighroad.org/index.php?threads/38-200-super-police-data-needed.198726/

https://www.thehighroad.org/index.php?threads/38-s-w-vs-38-200.45370/#post-553438

https://www.thehighroad.org/index.p...stern-38-special-police.857422/#post-11256790

I don't know why this topic always seems to trigger some people. It's almost as if they can't tolerate the thought that someone, somewhere, might do something they don't like and they have to brow-beat and insult them into sublime obedience. Humanity. Sometimes not so humane.

Anyway, if the OP is interested in trying 200gr. "hemi's" in a .38S&W, there is some good loading advice and links to suppliers in the above.

ATB.
 
I don't know why this topic always seems to trigger some people. It's almost as if they can't tolerate the thought that someone, somewhere, might do something they don't like and they have to brow-beat and insult them into sublime obedience. Humanity. Sometimes not so humane.

Anyway, if the OP is interested in trying 200gr. "hemi's" in a .38S&W, there is some good loading advice and links to suppliers in the above

ATB.

GeoDudeFlorida, please let me know, as soon as conveniently possible, where I acted triggered toward you, and where I have tried to insult you into sublime obedience, and thereby fallen below the standard of humanity. I wish to edit my posts immediately to remove such things. It was not my intent to do them, but I must have done them anyway, and without your help, I will be unable to improve.

I thought I was just disagreeing with you, and asking how you came by your opinions. That just shows how wrong I can be, doesn't it?
 
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