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H&R revolver club revival
- Thread starter Steel Hayes
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Steel Hayes
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With a single ejection rod and the serial number, puts it right around 1887-88
It’s a second variation Top break auto-ejector.
It’s a second variation Top break auto-ejector.
TTv2
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@sharkman
And, you probably already know this, it's a non smokeless model. From what I've seen of the 5 shot .32 top breaks H&R made, the smokeless models all have the modern bolt stop cuts on the cylinder. Not so with the 6 shot .32 top breaks, which I believe are smokeless capable due to the larger frame and cylinder.
Of course, this all rides on the the caliber being marked on the left side of the barrel. Without that, they're not smokeless models at all.
And, you probably already know this, it's a non smokeless model. From what I've seen of the 5 shot .32 top breaks H&R made, the smokeless models all have the modern bolt stop cuts on the cylinder. Not so with the 6 shot .32 top breaks, which I believe are smokeless capable due to the larger frame and cylinder.
Of course, this all rides on the the caliber being marked on the left side of the barrel. Without that, they're not smokeless models at all.
Blkhrt13
Member
Just picked up this lil 929 the other day. (Edited to add that her approximate born date is 1966)
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NIGHTLORD40K
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Not a revolver, but an H&R topbreak nonetheless. 1940 USRA Model.
Ironically, the name is an acronym for "United States REVOLVER Association."
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Tallball
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I don't recall the date on the first one. It's a top-break in 32 S&W. I just wanted a top-break centerfire revolver that was affordable and I could get ammo for it. The sights are incredibly small, but it's fun.
The other is from the H&R "sister company" of NEF. It's a 32 H&R magnum from the 1980's. The trigger is a bit rough, but it shoots just fine. It was my inexpensive introduction to the caliber.
The other is from the H&R "sister company" of NEF. It's a 32 H&R magnum from the 1980's. The trigger is a bit rough, but it shoots just fine. It was my inexpensive introduction to the caliber.
I have a few H&R revolvers, but apparently only have pics of two right now, I will try to get a family photo later today.
922 DA/SA
.32 Premier Top Break, circa 1905-1906
The sharpie is there for size reference this is not a big gun
Barrel marking:
Opened up
922 DA/SA
.32 Premier Top Break, circa 1905-1906
The sharpie is there for size reference this is not a big gun
Barrel marking:
Opened up
Paul R Zartman
Contributing Member
Found this 922 at the LGS, Guts in a plastic bag, got it cheap... pretty sure its a 2nd model large birdhead frame 2nd variation, probably 1941, shoots great now, lightly used...only problem it had was old dry oil and flat main spring was bent and holding too much pressure on hammer at rest...
Then I have my 32 long 3rd Model 3rd variation, somewhere around 1921, smokeless powder, call it Black Beauty... very nice shooter...
pretty sure its a 2nd model large birdhead frame 2nd variation, probably 1941, shoots great now, lightly used...only problem it had was old dry oil and flat main spring was bent and holding too much pressure on hammer at rest...
Then I have my 32 long 3rd Model 3rd variation, somewhere around 1921, smokeless powder, call it Black Beauty... very nice shooter...
LC '92
Member
Here is my American Double Action in caliber .44 Webley. No, I have never fired it and don't intend to. Not that I would be afraid to but I collect them and this one is unfired. The nickled trigger guard tells me it is pre-1896. I have 3 more .44's and examples of most other models too. I have been collecting early H&R revolvers since 1983.
With best regards,
Jeff
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CoalCrackerAl
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Mines 1974 vintage.
TTv2
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Those .44 H&R's a pretty hard to find as H&R didn't make them very long. I think I can see why too, the .44 Webley isn't all that powerful and at close distances a .38 S&W would have been as effective, but in a smaller, lighter gun with a more common caliber.
Monac
Member
On paper, at least, 44 Webley (better known as 442 Webley in the UK) was a fairly powerful cartridge. Standard cartridge listings, like "Ammo Enyclopedia" by Michael Bussard give it about 230 ft/lbs of muzzle energy, which is more than standard velocity 38 Special. (Wikipedia agrees: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/.442_Webley ). Ballistics are not as good as 38 Special though, because 44 Webley gets there by launching a fat, heavy bullet at lower velocity.
I think the real problem was that the US guns made for it (like LC '92s H&R or the very similar Iver Johnson guns) were very unpleasant to shoot with a cartridge that had fairly heavy recoil by the standards of the time. They are small, light guns, with tiny grips of indifferent shape. When Webley introduced the cartridge around 1868, they put it in a gun of decent size, the six-shot Webley "Royal Irish Constabulary" model. H&R and IJ were apparently trying to invent the Charter Arms Bulldog 44 about a century early.
For that reason, apparently, a cartridge called (coincidentally) 44 Bulldog was developed to give these guns something more pleasant to shoot. Its ballistics were downright pathetic, worse than the 41 Short Rimfire of the Remington Double Derringer; a pitiful 80 ft/lbs (Wikipedia again, but also agreeing with other listings: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/.44_Bull_Dog ).
44 Bulldog may have become the most common load in these guns, and then TTv2 is exactly right; a 38 S&W revolver would be a far better choice.
BTW, does anybody have a guess on whether a top break revolver could have been made in 44 Webley? I think the rim is too small, but in a solidly made 5-shot top break with a decent grip, it would have made an interesting alternative to S&W big six shot top break 44 Russian guns.
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Monac
Member
Found this 922 at the LGS, Guts in a plastic bag, got it cheap...
View attachment 1045632
View attachment 1045634
Then I have my 32 long 3rd Model 3rd variation, somewhere around 1921, smokeless powder, call it Black Beauty... very nice shooter...
View attachment 1045635View attachment 1045636
Nice! What are the rubber grips on the top break in the bottom left picture? They must make accurate shooting much more pleasant. Did you have to do any work on them to make them fit?
LC '92
Member
The H&R American Double Action in .44 Webley was produced from about 1883 until 1917 and in 3 barrel lengths and two finishes. That's a production life of 33 years in this caliber. It has the distinction of being the only American Double Action that H&R made that came standard with a loading gate. The first couple of years of production they came with round barrels and after that the rest were octagon.
The one I have illustrated in the previous post above, serial #602, was purchased by a gentleman that passed away in 1889, so it is at least that old. The serial numbers on these older guns were batch numbers so they can give little relevance to their manufacture date.
The picture below shows my very old round barrel .44, number#664, and illustrates both the loading gate and the round barrel. This revolver is no doubt from the 1884-1886 era.
H&R never made a production run of any top breaks in a caliber larger than .38. In-house experimentals, perhaps, but no production models.
Thanks for this discussion on old H&R revolvers. I'm loving it.
With best regards,
Jeff
The one I have illustrated in the previous post above, serial #602, was purchased by a gentleman that passed away in 1889, so it is at least that old. The serial numbers on these older guns were batch numbers so they can give little relevance to their manufacture date.
The picture below shows my very old round barrel .44, number#664, and illustrates both the loading gate and the round barrel. This revolver is no doubt from the 1884-1886 era.
H&R never made a production run of any top breaks in a caliber larger than .38. In-house experimentals, perhaps, but no production models.
Thanks for this discussion on old H&R revolvers. I'm loving it.
With best regards,
Jeff
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TTv2
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.44 Webley/.442 gets over 200 ft/lbs because it's a heavy bullet, one that doesn't expand. It pokes a hole, same as what .38 S&W does, and I'm willing to bet both would leave an exit wound. With those results, for a vest pocket gun used to fend off a mugger, the .38 S&W would do just as good.
I can't say how the recoil is for a .44 Webley in a 21oz revolver with the ergos of the H&R. It would probably be similar to what a Charter Bulldog feels like.
Paul R Zartman
Contributing Member
J frame grips i think, I'll look when I get home, not a perfect fit but great for shooting, have a set of wood grips on them currently...they look better but no pics on my phone...
Monac
Member
I agree with you about the comparison in self-defence value between 44 Webley and 38 S&W; namely, that with non-expanding bullets, there isn't any, or at least not much of any.
I find the idea of a good American made 44 Webley revolver back in the 1890's interesting, but that constitutes thread drift, and I don't want to change the subject of this thread: H&R pistols.
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22250Rem
Member
Nice to see this thread revived and to stay on that subject; here's my only H & R revolver. A model 676 convertible that I came across in 2014. Complete with both cylinders, the owners manual and the original box. Serial number puts it circa 1978 IIRC. Always wanted a 999 but saw this for a good price and jumped on it. Some of these pix have been on THR before but as long as we're on H & R revolvers some will reappear again.
...
.. & a period magazine ad from an internet seller:
..It's obviously led a sheltered life and will continue to do so even though it shows some light use. This is what caused me to buy a used Ruger Single Six convertible that showed up at the LGS two years later. I felt the H&R was too nice for the use that I give a .22 revolver.
...
.. & a period magazine ad from an internet seller:
..It's obviously led a sheltered life and will continue to do so even though it shows some light use. This is what caused me to buy a used Ruger Single Six convertible that showed up at the LGS two years later. I felt the H&R was too nice for the use that I give a .22 revolver.
Paul R Zartman
Contributing Member
tightgroup tiger
Member
Here is my old 22 special from 1925. 
Here is my 949I used to have the one with both 6 shot cylinders but I sold it and wish I still had it.
Same old story.
Here is my addition to this thread. Premier 3rd variation 1909-1913. In decent shape and functions perfectly I think.
I do have a question for those that have a Premier. The hammer doesn't retract when the trigger resets. It is still protruding through the firing pin hole. Also, there is what acts like a half cock notch/position of the hammer that obviously retracts the hammer/firing pin but also allows the cylinddr to free wheel. That just doesn't seem right for this late of a revolver. I'd expect something like that on an older model. I'm wondering if something was reassembled incorrectly sometime in the past.
I do have a question for those that have a Premier. The hammer doesn't retract when the trigger resets. It is still protruding through the firing pin hole. Also, there is what acts like a half cock notch/position of the hammer that obviously retracts the hammer/firing pin but also allows the cylinddr to free wheel. That just doesn't seem right for this late of a revolver. I'd expect something like that on an older model. I'm wondering if something was reassembled incorrectly sometime in the past.
A little research and I think I have answered my question. This fellow's 2nd model 3rd variation functions as mine does. Firing pin protruding and half cock are the same. This You Tuber poses that the half cock was a design feature to allow all chambers to be loaded.
He also poses that the hammer/firing pin can be placed between 2 live rounds and the hammer released all the way. The protruding firing pin will prevent the cylinder from rotating a live round under the firing pin.
He also poses that the hammer/firing pin can be placed between 2 live rounds and the hammer released all the way. The protruding firing pin will prevent the cylinder from rotating a live round under the firing pin.
And he is correct. The firing pin can be placed between 2 live rounds and make it safe for all chambers to be loaded and carried safely. It is slightly finicky as you have to pull the hammer back a tiny bit and rotate the cylinder before reaching the half cock notch. But is easily done once you figure out how to do it.
crestoncowboy
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The one my daddy had was a 5 or 6 inch. Swing out cylinder. True Vent rib. 9 shot. Had a thumb rest in the wood grip. Red lettering. It's mine now. Hasn't seen daylight in 15 years or so. Would be the last gun I'd part with despite being worth a small fraction of some of my others. Lol. Possibly next to last but the m1 carbine came from him to and I learned to shoot with the H&R. He got the m1 from his dad after I was grown. I don't even remember the model. 929. 949. I was thinking 999 but since everyone else here has a top break 999 then I suppose my swing out model isn't one. Lol
My daddies guns were a jc Higgins branded flite king, an Ithaca lever action 22 made in Germany (later became the Henry h001) and that H and R. He later added a Taurus for his ccw. Until I gave him a Beretta jet fire
Come to think of it my daddy was entirely too cheap to buy a quality gun.....
My daddies guns were a jc Higgins branded flite king, an Ithaca lever action 22 made in Germany (later became the Henry h001) and that H and R. He later added a Taurus for his ccw. Until I gave him a Beretta jet fire
Come to think of it my daddy was entirely too cheap to buy a quality gun.....
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