Ha! Loaded up 357 magnum BP cartridges

[stubbicatt]

I hope today to be able to take some footage of shooting the 5 357 mag cartridges I loaded up with Goex 3f being fired in a Uberti 1873. Seems like it could be a hoot.

Anticipating fouling to be an issue, I reckon I'll wipe the bore before returning to shooting my old standby 13.2 grains of 2400 loading.

If I am able to capture any usable footage, I'll try to post it here later today or tomorrow.

 

[BullRunBear]

Don't forget to clean the spent cases. I shoot BP in 45 Colt and 45-70. Before leaving the range I swab the barrels (water will do), decap the cases and drop them in a jar of water with a few drops of dish detergent. After cleaning the gun at home, I scrub the inside of the cases with a bristle brush and let them air dry.

BP cartridges are a lot of fun and I've found them to be very accurate. The extra cleaning involved is no big deal. Also, BP pressures are low and I get well over ten reloads with those cases.

Please let us know how it goes.

Jeff

 

[4v50 Gary]

Cleaning the cases should be easy. I'd figure out a way to toss them in the laundrymat.

Looking forward to the video.

 

[MIOkie]

Good luck, stubbicat, I'm sure you will enjoy it and wish you loaded 20 more.

It is a lot of fun and adds yet another experience to the BP sport.

Seems like the BP charge is a bit more efficient in a metallic cartridge, as there are no gases escaping out of the nipple.

Have fun...!

 

[jeepnik]

Don't forget to clean the spent cases. I shoot BP in 45 Colt and 45-70. Before leaving the range I swab the barrels (water will do), decap the cases and drop them in a jar of water with a few drops of dish detergent. After cleaning the gun at home, I scrub the inside of the cases with a bristle brush and let them air dry.

BP cartridges are a lot of fun and I've found them to be very accurate. The extra cleaning involved is no big deal. Also, BP pressures are low and I get well over ten reloads with those cases.

Please let us know how it goes.

Jeff

If you do many, a mesh bag in the dishwasher works.

If it was a stainless .357, you could toss it in as well, after removing the grips.

 

[BullRunBear]

I keep forgetting to mention the mesh bag in the dishwasher technique since I am the dishwasher.

Jeff

 

[Stormin.40]

When I shoot BP in my 45-70 trapdoor I just take along a small container of water with me and through the spend cases in. When I get home I give them a good rinse when I am cleaning the gun.

Have fun, something about BP that makes what is already an awesome hobby and makes it better.

 

[stubbicatt]

Sorry fellas. No footage. I guess I didn't saturate the patches enough or something. Maybe it was a trace of CLP in the bore from the last cleaning. That bore took awhile to come clean, and I had to use a bronze bore brush.

I had shot 10 or 20 smokeless, followed by the 5 black, followed by about 20 more smokeless. I used some MPro7 cleaner moistened, not saturated, patches, followed by a bore brush, and then more wet and dry patches until it was clean to my liking. I probably should have cleaned it at the range, but it was a couple hours later at home when it was cleaned.

There were a few flecks of silver, but nothing soldered into the bore or anything. If I had only shot smokeless I wouldn't have cared so much, but didn't want any corrosion. The lifter had some black powder residue, and the cases showed signs of not really sealing the chamber all that well. Last patch was an oily patch with soiled-diaper smelling Ballistol. Perhaps it mixes better with my beeswax/crisco/olive oil lube than CLP.

In all it was a nice experiment, but I don't believe I'll repeat it. Perhaps a dedicated 44-40 would be a good choice. I guess I'll save my black powder loading for 45-70.

Although... perhaps a duplex load... I reckon the pressures won't be an issue, say 5 grains 2400 and the remainder black powder? Might seal the chamber a bit better... I can see another experiment looming on the horizon.

 

[Pete D.]

And? How did they work for you?
I ask because I tried something similar a while back....38 Special from my little Rossi carbine.
The Rossi is a gun that I shoot quite well. The BP .38s were horribly inaccurate.....I could not get them to print a group at all, not even at 25 yards......until I loaded some with a "grease cookie" between the powder and the bullet. Then they shot just fine.
I did not pursue the idea......too much work to clean a lever gun. Years later now, the gin is rust free, so I guess I did an ok job.
Pete

 

[stubbicatt]

PeteD, I did not shoot them on paper, but as all I do is shoot at range scraps and such, I did the same with the BP rounds. They did not shoot to the same point of aim, which is to be expected I suppose. Truthfully, I just tried them to see if they would go "bang" which they did.

Mr. Beliveau (sic?) of Duelist Den fame has a good video on cleaning up after black powder, and he uses a "moose milk" sort of cleaner, mostly water and some Ballistol for cleaning up, and it does a good job. Instead of following his lead, I tried another approach and was disappointed with the result.

It was fun, I suppose. I didn't use a grease cookie, nor a wad under the bullet, but did use a BP friendly bullet lube in a "fat" grease groove bullet. I think maybe I'll stick to smokeless, as I have a load that shoots well, and doesn't take as much effort or time to load. --I used a powder measure for the BP which is hand held, brass, and has a little piston inside a cylinder with a rod which comes out with graduations for charge weight, and a set screw to hold it in place. It is larger in diameter than the 357 magnum case, and pouring the charges one at a time is both time consuming and a little bit messy.

In all I had fun, which is the reason I shoot in the first place.

 

[J-Bar]

I'm proud of you for having the courage to experiment with black powder.

Bullet lube, rifle preparation and cleaning technique matters.

I shot 150 Goex .38 Specials through my Uberti 1873 on Saturday. It took 4 wet patches and two dry patches to leave the bore sparkling. Wiping and rinsing the the exposed parts of the bolt and carrier took another five minutes.

Not bragging, just saying that black powder shooting need not take a lot of cleaning time. There are lots of different cleaning methods and solutions, and a lot of different bullet lubes. Which tells you that most of them work, or else everyone one would be doing the same thing. It's a matter of experimentation to find what you prefer.

 

[Hellgate]

Stubbicatt,
I started out stuffing alox/beeswax lubed bullets into .357 mag cases and 3F Goex and by the 15th round was shooting 3 foot patterns at 50 yds. If you use a Snakebite "Grease wagon" bullet sized & lubed with a good BP lube you can shoot BP all day. I found if I used the 358311 (Lyman 158gr RNFP) bullet lubed with home made BP lube and a couple of beeswax discs (from sheet wax found in craft stores) I could shoot all day too. Mine weren't as accurate and shot like tracers when powder imbedded in the wax under the bullet base.

 

[Noz]

I shot the same match as J-Bar Saturday. He burned off some excess ammo that I did not but the cleaning was as he described. A little moose milk, a few patches (3 or 4) and a wipe down and you're done. Case full of FFFg with a 105 gr Big Lube on top of it. They all went exactly where I pointed the gun.

 

[stubbicatt]

Hm. My posting seems to have gotten lost. So I'll try again. I used the Lyman 358665 bullet and 25 grains of Goex 3f as recommended by the Goex website. There was some severe, almost tar-like gunk that took awhile to remove from the bore. I have read elsewhere that petroleum based products such as CLP will have an adverse reaction to black powder, and I wonder now whether that is what caused this grunge.

I haven't washed the empty cases, and in fact I'm not so sure where they are right now, as my range companions helped police up the area afterwards. I wonder whether I'll be able to use them again? If I find them, I'll ultrasonic them and see if that doesn't work.

I think I'll just stick to 45-70 and black powder for awhile.

Glad you other fellas have had such good luck with BP.

 

[shafter]

I wouldn't try a duplex load. I haven't been at it long, and I'm sure there's far more knowledgeable people here to correct me, but wouldn't the added black powder cause a large increase in pressure?

 

[stubbicatt]

Perhaps I am a lunatic, but all I've read about the pressure hazards of duplexing pertains to older BP firearms, where due to the steels used, they may burst. As I understand it, for rifles designed around higher pressure cartridges, the pressures of black and a kicker of smokeless will not exceed the smokeless only pressures for which the firearm is proofed. It will make the black burn more efficiently, perhaps enough to limit fouling.

Ferinstance, a trapdoor Springfield shot with duplexed loads is more prone to burst than would a Ruger #1 in 450 magnum or some such chambering.

The 357 magnum is a comparatively high pressure round. The cases I retrieved and examined which shot the 25 grains of FFFg, showed signs of not sealing particularly well, and the crusty fouling that took more effort to remove than I would like, might be ameliorated with a small 5 grain kicker. I'll give it a try at some point perhaps. Although I really can't say why I would, as loading the 2400 straight is so much more simple and so much easier to clean up after.

Perhaps my lunacy is illustrated best by the mythical philosophy exam where the question posed: "What is the meaning of life?" One student turned in his test with the one word answer, "why?". He got an A-. Another answered: "Why not?". Got an A+

 

[J-Bar]

Duplex loads are risky. I have never tried it, and don't intend to. And I doubt it would solve your fouling problem.

What lube did you use on your bullet? If it was not a black powder compatible lube, that will contribute to crud formation. I fill the groove and cover the bullet base with a mix of beeswax and crisco melted together.

Crimp the bullet heavily. That increases pressure for a more complete powder burn.

Prep your rifle for black powder loads. Get all petroleum based lube out of the barrel and action. Run a patch of Ballistol or Canola oil (PAM cooking spray) down the barrel. Coat the exposed parts of the bolt, carrier, and carrier passage with a light grease and spray with some aerosol Ballistol or PAM every 20 or 30 shots. The top of the carrier should look juicy while you are shooting. Black powder loads get the metal hot, particularly if you are shooting a lot of rounds quickly. If nothing else is available, pour water into the action and barrel to keep the fouling soft.

After shooting, spray some more Ballistol or PAM down the barrel and action and let it soak on the way home. Clean up will be a lot easier.

 

[MEHavey]

Uberti 1873:

SAECO #398/Lyman#2 (158gr) as-cast
DGL (Black Powder) lube
GOEx/3Fg/21.0gr (baaaarely compresses after vibrating down)
Starline Brass
FedSmPstl
Very easy/quick to clean w/ simple squirt of dishsoap in quart of warm water



1,010fps (same as Black Hills commercial "cowboy" load - AND - my stock smokeless W231/5.0gr load)

 

[Driftwood Johnson]

Howdy

Forget about Duplex loads. They were meant for the early 'bulk' Smokeless powders made in the early part of the 20th Century. They have no place with modern Smokeless powders unless you have considerable experience with various powders and internal ballistics.

Your problem is the bullet lube on your bullets. Black Powder requires a soft, 'gooey' bullet lube. The main purpose of bullet lube with Smokeless powder is to lubricate the barrel as the bullet slides down the bore, to prevent the sides of the bullet softening from friction, causing the lead to melt and solder itself to the bore. However with Black Powder there is an additional requirement. A Black Powder compatible bullet lube will remain soft and gooey in the bore. Each successive bullet will tend to wipe out the lube left behind by the previous bullet. The tar you are experiencing is typical of hard, Smokeless bullet lubes when fired with Black Powder. The BP turns the bullet lube into a hard deposit, difficult to remove. It also ruins accuracy as it builds up in the rifling. The difficulty you encountered removing the tarry deposit is typical of shooting Black Powder with Smokeless bullet lubes.

When you say you are shooting in Uberti 1873 I assume you are talking about a rifle. Sometimes folks refer to the SAA revolver as an 1873.

You have several options. You can melt the regular lube out of your bullets and pan lube them with soft, BP compatible lube. I did that for years with a mixture of Crisco and Beeswax. You can buy bullets already lubed with a BP compatible lube such as SPG. Or you can add a 'lube cookie' between the bullet and the powder. I will warn you though, I gave up on lube cookies a long time ago. Too much work. I discovered that the soft cookie was gluing itself to the base of the bullet, causing it to fly like a lopsided dart, ruining accuracy. So I wound up placing a card wad between the bullet and the cookie, as well as a card wad between the cookie and the powder, to prevent the lube from adulterating the powder and causing an incomplete burn. Kind of an Oreo cookie affect, card, cookie, card. Way too much work if you are loading a few hundred rounds. Plus, you have to adjust the powder charge to allow for the extra volume all that stuff takes up.

These days I only shoot Big Lube bullets lubed with SPG. Much less work.

Regarding cleaning the cases, all I do is dump them in a jug filled with water and a squirt of dish detergent. This must be done within 24 hours or the brass WILL corrode. Once I get them home I rinse the brass with plenty of clean water until the water runs clear. Then I spread them out on cookie sheets lined with paper towels to air dry. Then into the tumbler, no different than Smokeless brass. Wouldn't dream of throwing them in the washing machine. And I never scrub out the inside of the cases. Wasted effort. If the cases have been well rinsed, none of that powdery stuff on the inside of the case will prevent the powder from igniting and burning properly.

 

[bubba15301]

try magnum primers

 

[stubbicatt]

The lube in the bullets is a BP friendly grease made from beeswax, crisco, olive oil, and a touch of Murphy's Oil Soap. I am not concerned about the bullet lube. The bullet is Lyman's fat grease groove RNFP bullet. For now, I believe the issue is perhaps traces of CLP in the bore from the prior cleaning, which combined with black powder, created the tarry substance.

Usually with smokeless, cleanup is a breeze, a couple wet patches on a jag moistened with CLP, followed by a couple or few dry patches and I'm done. This last time, the time I shot the BP cartridges, I switched to MPro7 moistened patches. They were sticky going down the bore which prompted the bore brush. I suppose the issue could be CLP or maybe the Mpro7. Either way, the bore is clean now, and lubed with Ballistol patch for the last pass down the bore. Also since then I have mixed a batch of moose milk, which worked really well for my dedicated BP rifle. If I load BP in my 357's again, I reckon to use that solvent and see if my results are less sticky.

I really appreciate all your input. Thanks again.

 

[Dave Markowitz]

FWIW, I have found that MPro7 is a very effective cleaner for BP fouling.

 

[MEHavey]

Once my BP guns (many. many pistolas, rifles, etc, etc) are cleaned/dried with plain ol' dishsoap & water, I slather everything with BreakFree inside & out.

As long as I simply dry-patch out the barrel before loading up the next shooting session, there is never any trace of petroleum-based fouling problem.

Moosemilk is fine (great) when an abundance of soapy water is unavailable (and I give it as my fixed opinion that Ballistol an't nothin' more than fancy water soluble NAPA machine cutting oil -- doesn't mean I don't still have a can of the stuff on the shelf )

As to MPro-7, I was suprised to see that it does advertise itself as a BP cleaner.
At the rate I go through soapy water, though, that'd be a might expensive.

 

[25cschaefer]

I loaded some 357s with a full charge of Pyrodex under a 55gr squished round ball. It nearly started the atmosphere on fire and I'm pretty sure it melted the entire ball inside the 2in snub nose I was shooting.

 

[stubbicatt]

Dang! Don't do that again! Without the atmosphere, we all would have nothing to breathe.