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hacker defeats $1500 "smart gun" with $15 of magnets

Discussion in 'General Gun Discussions' started by old lady new shooter, Jul 26, 2017.

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  1. old lady new shooter

    old lady new shooter Member

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    I would NEVER have an electronic or biometric safe. Just like my cousin the medical device programmer who is diabetic, would never have an insulin pump.

    Separately but related to your post, your safes are a great design and I would have bought one but they are not on the California DOJ list. (Why, if I may ask?) I have a Fort Knox.
     
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  2. old lady new shooter

    old lady new shooter Member

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    Depends on the intelligence and prior knowledge of the designer.

    One thing that happens in software development, the actual developers don't understand the business at all, they depend on the systems analyst for that. If the systems analyst doesn't have independent knowledge of how the business operates, he or she is dependent on the users interviewed to provide all the requirements. Users are TERRIBLE at this. Not only that, they will sign off on a design document and then when the software is delivered loudly proclaim that it doesn't meet their needs.

    The only way a "smart" gun might be able to be successfully designed would be by a person with sophisticated technical competence who is also a gun person. Folks meeting those criteria are not likely to be interested in designing a "smart" gun. (Let's ask Trent... See, you're already laughing!)
     
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  3. old lady new shooter

    old lady new shooter Member

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    "Progress" implies improvement. The examples you cite all improved on previous technology. I don't see "smart" guns as an improvement at all, they lack what is probably the single most important characteristic of a defensive firearm, reliability.
     
  4. RPZ

    RPZ Member

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    Racing is for fun. Shooting can be life and death.
     
    Last edited: Jul 27, 2017
  5. RPZ

    RPZ Member

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    They also lack absolute control by the owner/user.
     
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  6. old lady new shooter

    old lady new shooter Member

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    Yes. Once upon a time that would have been a given. :fire:
     
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  7. RPZ

    RPZ Member

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    About the only improvement application for electric ignition guns at all is in competition. An electronic trigger can be moderated with any desired spring tension, travel etc for the "perfect" trigger. It eliminates lock time to instantaneous. It also eliminates any induced movement to the firearm by mechanical striker, firing pin, hammer, springs etc.
     
  8. Legionnaire
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    Legionnaire Member

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    I don't want a "smart" gun. I do think they might prove of interest to some law enforcement organizations if future technology lends itself to "retention." Might stop officers being jumped and shot with their own weapons. I think there may very well be good uses for the technology, even though I can't think of any that would benefit me as a recreational shooter.

    And might the idea of a "smart" gun incentivize some who would not otherwise explore shooting to do so? In that case, the technology (if affordable and not mandated) might actually win some otherwise hoplophobic converts to the shooting sports.

    I don't want a Tesla. But when the auto industry figures out how to extend a vehicle's range to 300 miles AND how to fully recharge the system in under ten minutes, I'll be interested. I already replaced all my gas-powered lawn equipment with electric lawn tools--not for any political or ecological reasons; I just don't want to have to store gasoline.
     
  9. FAS1

    FAS1 Member

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    I don't want to derail this thread, so I will refer you this one where I recently replied to a similar question. Thanks for asking.
    http://www.thehighroad.org/index.php?threads/which-bedside-pistol-safe.822923/
     
  10. J-Bar

    J-Bar Member

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    Manufacturers will want the safety mechanism to fail into "can't be fired" condition. Gun owners will want the safety mechanism to fail into "can be fired" condition. There is simply no way a "smart" safety can do both at the same time.
     
  11. old lady new shooter

    old lady new shooter Member

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    Exactly.
     
  12. herrwalther

    herrwalther Member

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    In military applications, there are artillery shells that can guide themselves onto a target. From what I understand they are close to being used in the field. Once the technology is made reliably smaller and cheaper, it would become more popular in small arms. Although I expect it will develop in crew served weapons first.
     
  13. barnbwt

    barnbwt member

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    If they'd market it as 'child safer' vs man-proof there'd be less skepticism. If there did not rely on government proclamations to protect their market, there would be no hostility. Alas, government screws up everything, in this case killing a promising new field of technology in its crib.

    No sane person would refute that an electronic burst sear would be superior to mechanical. Imagine being able download different trigger profiles, SA/DA/etc, and safety methods vs. replacing parts. Imagine a trigger that senses your flinch & releases before you pull the gun further off target. Huge area to explore, and that's just the FCG, not the sights or operating system.

    A smooth, rounded, white polymer iGun with completely touch-based controls, lol

    TCB
     
  14. RPZ

    RPZ Member

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    I am not so keen on the idea at all. In regards to child safety the best is still; keep them locked up if they are not old enough to know "you do not ever....", and or a mechanical key lock as already available in some make, models of handguns.
     
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  15. Guy B. Meredith

    Guy B. Meredith Member

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    I saw a list of requirements from the DOJ or some such--I'll try to dig it up--that listed the requirement that the mechanism must be in the operational mode upon failure. Of course that means that in order to defeat the electronics all that needs to be done is destroy the electronics.
     
  16. Guy B. Meredith

    Guy B. Meredith Member

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    I'm concerned that worship of technology will cause people to be negligent, leaving the gun laying around in plain sight and possibly forgetting to put the RFID in a separate location. Gun on dresser, child finds pretty RFID bracelet in a jewelery box on the dresser near the gun. And of course, thinking the firearm can't be used by criminals, make it open to easy theft.
     
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  17. lysanderxiii

    lysanderxiii Member

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    Precision guided artillery shells have been in service since the 1980's. See the M712 Copperhead laser guided 155mm Cannon Launched Guided Projectile, and the M982 Excalibur Precision Guided Extended Range Artillery Projectile.

    While the Copperhead required a laser designated target, the current M982 is GPS guided. But, at 70 grand a round they're a bit pricey for the average shooter
     
  18. barnbwt

    barnbwt member

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    Worship of technology? LOL. Got some real Luddites here, who sound about ready to ban smart gun themselves. Do explain how an RFID bracelet is less safe than a DAO revolver, seeing as many irresponsible/ignorant people mistakenly rely on the pull being too strong for a kid to pull. There's a NY law mandating this 'safety' for all guns in the pipeline, btw. Despite all the safety systems and free gun locks and even in the face of misguided safe storage laws, too many guardians (hard to call them parents) leave loaded guns with no manual safety of any kind out in the open with their unattended kids.

    Mechanical safeties have long been marketed as child safe(r). I don't see why an electronic solution *must* be a foolproof panacea for NDs before anyone will see it as beneficial, seeing as safes will still be available, and gun owners will still generally have a brain their heads.

    The only legitimate angle to our hostility is the banners' desire to make them mandatory and impractical as a way to make gun ownership harder or impossible. BTW, that same pressure is why we hate certain *mechanical* safeties that rely on keys or magnets. Absent that, it's no scarier than electronic sights (did you know they make pistols with no iron sights, now? Heaven forbid the battery fails or zero shifts for no reason because "electronics are unreliable" despite all the iron sights that have worked themselves loose from recoil; someone might not hit what they're aiming at!)
     
  19. Guy B. Meredith

    Guy B. Meredith Member

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    There are many negligent people as it is, possibly many of whom are not supposed to have firearms in the first place or generally negligent. I am pointing out that assuming too much of the "smart" guns technology can take it to a new level, beginning to include more generally responsible people.

    The fact that the majority of people responding to the idea of "smart" guns think in terms of hacking or government being able to disable the firearms shows how many people habitually defer to technology. Those who propose mandating "smart" guns worship the infallibility of technology as a given.

    The "smart" works only if the key is stored separately, for short term retention. It does not prevent use after theft or by curious young people old enough to use tools. Again, look at about the 3:95 mark in the video to see the ferris plug that can be removed to defeat the control mechanism.
     
    Last edited: Jul 29, 2017
  20. herrwalther

    herrwalther Member

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    Specifically I was talking about the Excalibur being close to field use. Using laser guided (Viper) munitions from an FO is relatively common in the military right now. Every now and then DARPA will hint they are working on a long range small arm that can change its direction slightly in flight. Last I heard they were using a smart .50 bullet for sniper shots.
     
  21. CZ-75BD

    CZ-75BD Member

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    "Wanted" stans "curving the bullet in flight", coming to life? Hollywood predicted that in 2008.
     
  22. GAF

    GAF Member

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    I suspect that if the market place has anything to say about smart guns it will say bankruptcy for smart gun manufactures.
     
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  23. herkyguy

    herkyguy Member

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    legitimate application of this technology perhaps for police work, but still a long way from being secure enough that any officer should have to trust their life to it.

    as far as the 2A goes, the video should put to bed, at least for now, any of these wacky ideas that private citizens should be required to use it.
     
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  24. herrwalther

    herrwalther Member

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  25. CapnMac

    CapnMac Member

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    They've tried. Debil is in the details, it's 300 miles at no more than 51.1mph (not easy in Texas). Aslo the fast chargers exist, it's the 440VAC wiring that is complicated

    (A whole bunch of places now mandate electric car charging stations in site design--very first thing the GC wants to VE [value engineer] is to see if they can be installed using 120 or 220 VAC feeders; those chargers require a subscription to use.)
     
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