Hakim/Turk ammo myth BUSTED!

[telewinz]

Just got back from the range as promised (32 degrees) WITH my Hakim rifle in one piece. I fired 70 rounds of Turk 8mm ammo and 50 rounds of Romainian ammo. To function the rifle the gas setting had to be at the first click which is at about 7 o'clock position. Neither round would eject at less than that setting (valve turned off?). Both rounds were VERY pleasant to shoot and had the same felt recoil (much less than my 30/30 bolt action rifle w/scope). The Hakim is very accurate off-hand with either round and easily hit 6-8 inch rocks at 100 meters, point of aim. This rifle is as fun to shoot as any AR15 but man all that power!

All rounds regardless of brand ejected from 3-8 yards with very little abuse to the spent case, similar or less than my other auto rifles.
In the pic, you will see on both rounds there is a slight "burr" where the extractor or ejector hit it. Again certainly no more han what I have experienced in the other military auto loaders over the years. I was saddened that the Turk stripper clips will now load the Hakim magazine, they do not project down enough to meet the top of the magazine follower. What stripper clip does the Hakim take?

From this first hand experience, it is my intention to order Turk 8mm bulk ammo asap. The rifle was no where near as dirty as I had expected, two patches with WW2 bore cleaner and a squirt of WD40. I will let it sit over night and keep an eye on the bore and gas chamber. I cleaned it with the front site pointing down so that the bore cleaner would flow into the gas chamber. The only danger I saw to firing this ammo was over heating the barrel, with the full length handguard and light recoil it is very easy to ripoff 30 rounds without letting the barrel cool. The Hakim and Turk ammo are "keepers" in my book. I plan to get more of each.

Pics: the round on the left is the Romainian 1963 and the on the right is Turk 1943. Notice the dent in the case body.

 

[telewinz]

Pics

Romanian on the left and Turk on the right.

 

[Tropical Z]

I prefer my early 70's Romanian,but dang if that Turk stuff isnt reasonably priced! Id like to bring in about 1400 rounds just for plinking.Somebody has something like 2800 rounds for about $120.00 or something like that.Of course shipping would kill ya!

 

[telewinz]

I prefer my early 70's Romanian,but dang if that Turk stuff isnt reasonably priced!

So do I but the ammostore has the Turk on sale for $126 for 3360 rounds! I just emailed them to see how much UPS would be. If they weren't at the other end of the state in Canton, I'd just drive and pick it up. I just fired 70 rds of Turk (43) in my Hakim with the gas ajusted to the first click, no problem.

 

[GD]

I have heard too many other "first hand experiences" in which Turk ammo destroyed Hakim extractors. I love Turk ammo also but I save it for my bolt actions. My Hakim gets Romanian which I pay about 8 cents per round.

 

[Tropical Z]

Thats the deal i was thinking of! Ill have to give em a call.

 

[lowammo]

Hello everybody! Found your site by accident-- Glad I did!!! You've got a newbie here! I'm an old hat at several other sites under the same username. I have had too much fun with my Hakim. I have used the Turk ammo with good results. I think of the Hakim as an SKS on Steroids! I've owned no less than 30 SKS's over the years but this is my first Hakim. At first glance, I was going to pass on it. The owner of the gun shop where I do most of my business talked me into taking a second look. I'm really glad that I did. This puppy is just plain fun to shoot. Not to forget...cheap to feed! And if you guys haven't already heard, TAPCO has the gas adjustment tools on sale for like .99 cents.

I was glad to see this thread on the Hakims. I think that we're in a very small group as I have not seen very many Hakims around. Matter of fact, the one that I bought was the first one that I had ever seen.

Can anyone hook me up with a source for Hakim parts and/or accessories???
Glad to be a new member here, THANKS GUYS!

 

[telewinz]

Chicken Little alive and well

Welcome lowammo

[email protected] seems to be the man for Hakim and Rasheed parts.

Its been 24 hours since shooting 70 rounds of that EVIL Turk 8mm ammo in my Hakim. Gas system and bore are still like new, the Turk ammo is corrosive but then what 8mm surplus isn't? Ajust your gas valve like they say (1st click?) and don't use Turk ammo in a rusty/rough chamber. Turk 8mm is no more dirty than any other surplus ammo I've fired in other rifles.

I'm driving to the AmunitionStore.com in Canton, Ohio and pick-up 3360 rds while they still have it on sale for $126. According to "Web Legend" the Turk ammo I was shooting was the "hottest" turk ammo of the bunch. The nickel plated bullets I have are suppose to be machinegun ammo only yet it shot just like the Romainian. I must have a very "special edition" (or properly ajusted gas valve) Hakim if it will shoot Turk ammo without mishap. If you don't understand how to operate your Hakim you should not shoot ANY ammo thru it.

I have spent the last week doing a search on the Firing Line, FALfiles and the Gunboards web sites. Most comments on Turk ammo (especially during 2001) are positive, the ones that have warnings or negative comments (2002 and up) on Turk ammo being too powerfull for auto loaders start off with " I heard" rather than "I experienced". I am sure Hakims and FN49's have been damaged in the past but so have Garands and every other semiauto rifle for one reason or another. Of course its a personal decision to shoot that EVIL Turk ammo, but as long as you don't buy Turk, the price will stay low (supply & demand) and their will be just that much more for me.

 

[lowammo]

THANKS Telewinz!!! I'll check them out! Looking to see what I can buy for this toy. I don't expect to find too much in options but it's always good to know where to get replacement parts if needed.

 

[telewinz]

Evidence

Could this be a high speed photo of an Hakim at the moment of firing the EVIL Turk 8mm Ammo?

 

[telewinz]

A few comments based on "personal experience"

I've run about a thousand rounds of Turk 8mm through my parts gun and it shoots fine. It will hold 2 inches at 100yds all day long. The FN49 is really not that bad to clean. When I first purchased this gun, the headspace was .010 long. I'm sure glad I checked it before I fired it. Fixed it by measuring every bolt and buying the longest one. Turk 8mm sure hits hard!

I got my Hakim several years ago. The rifle has a super crisp trigger and will shoot 3" groups with all kinds of surplus including Turk, Equadoran, Bulgarian, Yugo, Egyptian and FN.

I've used the Turk in bandoliers extensively in my SAFN-49. Clean religiously (corrosive), but impeccable function.

Turk is fine but remember the silver bullets are MG ammo. A lot hotter.
I shoot it in my Hakim all the time. Works fine.

I've shot probably 1000 rounds out of my 49 using the Turk 'MG Special' w/o ANY problems. The FN is like the FAL: adjust the gas and go have fun. I haven't seen sign of excessive pressure, excessive beating on the recoiling parts, or other warnings of incipient failure or damage.

Good site for Turk 8mm ammo tests, some good some bad. Make you OWN decision.

http://www.turkmauser.com/turkmauser/ammo.htm

 

[P95Carry]

Good thread tele ..... glad it ran well.

I should have mine in about a week I think .... just a question re cleaning ... followed pretty much what you mentioned but ... how well can you reckon to have cleaned the gas system after corrosive?

Can you expand on that just a bit ... is a more comprehensive strip useful .. and, what is take down like on that puppy? I will have quite a bit to learn I think.

 

[telewinz]

from American Rifleman - March 1987

Questions and Answers column
I recently purchased an Egyptian Hakim rifle and, since it came with no instructions, am at a bit of a loss about operating and field-stripping it. How does it work?

Answer: The Hakim is an Egyptian version of the Swedish Ljungman rifle in 7.92x57 mm (8 mm) rather than the original 6.5x55 mm. The Ljungman is one of those rifles that is far more significant for the technology it introduced than for its use in warfare, which was pretty much confined to the Sinai War of 1956.

The rifle's most important feature is the direct-impingement gas system, an ancestor of the one used in the M16 rifle. Gas is bled from the barrel under the top handguard (the spot is marked by a pie-shaped valve stud) and directed through a tube to the front of the bolt carrier. On firing, the gas forces the carrier rearward, camming the rear of the bolt upward out of engagement with the locking shoulder in the receiver.

Most of the confusion in handling the Hakim comes from the separate receiver cover. To operate the rifle (with bolt forward and the magazine empty), ensure that the safety lever is to the left in fire position and proceed as follows.

1.) Grasp the serrated sides of the breech cover or the cartridge deflecting bar and push the cover all the way forward. Then pull all the way to the rear until a click s heard.

2.) With the muzzle pointed down-range, the rifle may be loaded by inserting a full magazine, by loading cartridges singly into the magazine, or by two five-round stripper clips. Note that chargers for the M1903 or M14 rifles are too large for the Hakim.

3.) After loading, push the breech cover about 1/8 inch forward until a click is heard., then pull the cover sharply rearward. This releases the bolt carrier and bolt, which spring forward to chamber a cartridge. The breech cover remains rearward.

4.) If the rifle is not to be fired immediately, engage the safety by moving it to the right.

5.) To unload, be sure the safety is applied and the rifle pointed downrange. Unlatch the magazine catch and press it forward to remove the magazine. Then move the breech cover forward and back to eject the chambered round.

6.) To close the action with the rifle unloaded, press the breech cover forward until a click is heard, then release forward pressure. Depress the magazine follower with a finger, then slide the breech cover fully forward. Then, with the fingers pressing firmly against the side of the breech cover, press the cover latch at the cover rear. Maintaining pressure with the thumb and fingers, allow the cover to slide rearward until it contacts the backpiece.
To field-strip the rifle, first ensure it is unloaded, then:
1) Remove the magazine.
2.) Push the breech cover about 1 inch forward, point the safety lever straight rearward and lift the backpiece up and out of the receiver.
3.) Remove the breech cover, recoil spring and guide to the rear.
4.) Slide the bolt carrier and bolt rearward off the receiver.
5.) Invert the bolt carrier and bolt, pull the bolt partway to the rear, rotate it slightly on its long axis and separate it from the bolt carrier.
Despite its peculiar looks and unusual mode of operation, the Hakim is a very pleasant gun to fire and had a good reputation for accuracy. Recoil is unusually mild, thanks to both the gun's 10-1/2 lb. weight and its muzzle brake. This device is certainly effective in redirecting gas; the Hakim kicks up quite a breeze when fired. It is not an ideal gun for the reloader; spent cases are directed against the reflector bar, which severely dents them before sending them forward. Some Hakims and Ljungmans had a rubber covering on the deflector to keep the denting to a minimum; reloaders may wish to install a piece of surgical tubing over the deflector to save cases. Perhaps the best course is to use the very cheap Berdan-primed military ammunition now sold by several importers, and let the dented cases lie.

This pretty much does it. When I first get a rifle, I tear it apart (refinish if needed) and coat the parts with RIG. To clean I use Windex but recently picked up a can of WW2 bore cleaner thats intended to address corrosion. I flip the Hakim upside down with the front site pointing down. This permits the bore cleaner to flow thru the gas port into the gas chamber. The gas tube is stainless steel like the M16. I squirt some WD40 down the tube and down the bore AFTER I have run several patches of bore solvent down. I spray the entire action with WD40 when done, it works for me. To be safe I check the Hakim for the next few days but so far this method WORKS.

Some say to remove the handguard and completely unscrew the gas valve. I won't, it takes too long and will increase wear and tear. As long as the gas valve turns easily, there is no rust. I do unscrew the gas valve when I first get it and apply RIG to the threads. I find that an M1 Carbine wrench works well for removing the gas valve but a purpose built tool is available if thats your wish. The Hakim is an easy rifle to maintain, but like anything else you can make it as difficult as you wish. Remember, at 50,000 psi, there isn't too much stuff that WON'T fly out the gas tube. I almost want to use the term self cleaning but you do have to neutralize the primer salts.

Due to the gas system design, you will feel gas blowback, any oil left in the gas tube WILL spray in your hair or forehead. Wear a hat.

 

[P95Carry]

MOST useful tele .. many thx for that ... now I shall feel better prepared when the puppy arrives.

 

[lowammo]

P95Carry, PREPARE FOR FUN! It sure beats plinkin' with a .22 rifle. Let us know what you think when yours arrives!

 

[P95Carry]

Let us know what you think when yours arrives!

lowammo ... I most surely will .... however right now .. partly due to time constraints but - most of all to that white stuff called snow ... the range is long overdue. I have a ''queue'' of guns lined up for range duty too ... in most cases I have added, changed sights ... mod'd this, and mod'd that .. I think I need a whole week devoted to range!

Once I have it in my grubby paws tho .. I shall strip and prepare ... at least range-ready. Next thing then will be whether I can coax these old eyes to handle iron sights ... most longarms now have had red dots etc fitted.

I think I am going to order the big batch of Turk ammo this week .. my Turk Mauser still likes fed! I wondered about a drive to Canton and back but .. reckon 8 hours drive, plus gas ... plus no carry in OH . I'll bite the bullet (7.92 naturally!) and pay whatever gross shipping charge is needed!

Probably take and post a pic tho .. for starters!

 

[telewinz]

Drove to the AmmunitionStore.Com in Canton, Ohio (1.5 hours) and got my 2 crates of Turk 8mm ammo $102 plus tax. Real nice people and quick service in and out in less than 15 minutes. You won't want your wife and kids to unload your ammo, each crate of 1400 rounds must go 80 pounds at least. The crate is strury with rope handles, not as nice as the Russian or Yugo ammo but its still worth keeping. The lid is held on with 12 wood screws and wrapped with wire. There are two wax seals at either corner that for the most part were still intact. The outside of the crate is embossed with the caliber, No. of rounds, and year of manufacture. The inside is lined with a mild steel foil with a zip wire for opening. I only opened one crate manufacured in 1939 and of the random 40 rounds I inspected all were in good shape with the cupro-nickel plated bullets. The bullets DO have a steel core. The other crate was marked 1941 and since copper gilding bullets were not made by the Turks till around 1945 they should be the same. The clerk told me that some of the Turk marked crates in fact are loaded with German WW2 ammo, maybe I will open that 1941 crate after all She seemed to think that was a problem but I don't see why. Less than four cents a round with stripper clips and bandoleers, I can't reload .38's that cheap.

The Turkish ammo resembles the 1916 version, German S cartridge.

Cartridge Bullet Weight Avg Velocity Standard Deviation Extreme Spread Energy Avg Velocity Standard Deviation Extreme Spread Energy

Turkish 1941 154 FMJ 2872 13 44 2830 2700 40 2491
Turkish 1943 154 FMJ 2918 24 63 2903 2772 17 50 2629
Turkish 1951 155 FMJ 2917 9 30 2925 2746 12 42 2612
Equadorian 1955 196 FMJ 2466 37 89 2668 2357 31 89 2428
Yugoslavian 1953 198 FMJ 2388 23 70 2485 2269 38 110 2237

 

[P95Carry]

Hey tele ... thx for your assiduous figures there ... takes quite some time assembling data like that .... most useful.

I considered a drive up there but .... just too far to be economic .. probably 4 hours each way .. all that time and gas .... better I shell out the $55 or so shipping ....... apparently because over 200 lbs weight .. there is some easing of the shipping cost .. was not quite as grim as I anticipated. Even adding that .. this is about the most ''budget'' ammo you can ever imagine. Might as well be some 22lr!

Spoke to Shannon this morning and have some ordered up . it'll never get any cheaper!

I have approx 1,000 left from the last batch ... and just looked to see what was what .. the steel jacket stuff is '41 .. and in buttons pouch blue bandoliers ... but with that I also got quite a lot of gilded bullet stuff, appearing to be 1950! I'll take a pic of these just for interest' sake and post em ... bit later.

Don't really need more yet having just had the Turk to feed .. but I rather think the Hakim will be one hungry puppy! Should see me thru for a few shoots yet!

 

[P95Carry]

Here ... coupla pics of that ammo ... the two years in my last batch. Sometimes interesting to see the stuff for comparison' sake. On left of course ('50)... the gilded bullets ... and pouches have no buttons .. and on right the old stuff ('41) in the button-down pouches.

Then, just to give some headstamp info .... on left again .. are two rounds of the 1950 .. and to right, two rounds of 1941. Haven't dug around to interpret the remainder of headstamp info yet.

 

[telewinz]

wish I could take great pics like yours

Make sure you checkout this site on Turk ammo.
http://www.turkmauser.com/turkmauser/ammo.htm

One thing I discovered when taking out my gas valve and retainer spring...make sure you screw the valve all the way down. the spring may stop you turning when you still don't have the valve fully seated. Lift up on the spring and go one more turn. Otherwise your valve is wide open yet may point towards closed. I wonder if this condition has accounted for any "damaged" Hakims? For flexibility I filed an additional groove that will permit the valve to be closed just a hair more than what was minimal/normal. I'll see if the Turk is strong enough to still function with a hair less gas. If not, nothing lost.

My '39 is in buttoned blue bandoliers and the '43 is in green buttoned bandoliers. The clips will not work on the Hakim. They stop short of the magazine follower by about 1/2 and inch. Life is hard What shocks me is how much factural info is out there about Turk ammo yet people tend to make it up as they go along. I like to find out how strong the Hakim action is compared to other rifles. The Garand is quite strong compared to any rifle.

 

[P95Carry]

Most useful link tele .. thx for that ....

Hell!! That Yugo stuff .... 199 grain bullet ... sheesh!

Oh and your comments on gas valve ... NOTED!!! You may well be right re reasons for ''damaged'' Hakims. I shall study the gas valve assembly and mechanics very closely when I get mine .. being an engineer I have NO excuses for screwing up really!


Re the pics ... you may have been already I don't know ... but the stuff I posted a while back, to try and help folks with image stuff ... IMAGE MATTERS - whilst accessible thru the THR Library link ... may give you some food for thought ... go to ''Pic' Taking'' on the flyout menu and look there ... lighting has a great deal to do with it ... then things like tripod, manual control etc.

I did invest in a better camera too ... seem to have to go up to a certain level to get the darn things that'll let you decide exposure and stuff for yourself!