Hakim VS. FAL/DPMS/AR10/etc for SHTF

[coosbaycreep]

I was going to post a poll for this, but couldn't figure out how to make it work.

Anyway, I've had my hakim for awhile now, and until today, it never worked with a crap. I loosened the gas screw 1 1/4 turn from where it originally was, and out of about 70 rounds, I only had two jams. (Before I would've had 68 jams, and 2 rounds that cycled, so I'm pleased with it) I also had one dud, but that's Yugoslavia's fault, not the poor Egyptian bastards that made my hakim.

I still need to fine tune the gas adjustment a little, but I think this gun is finally going to function like it was meant to.

I've pretty much got most of the guns that I "need", with the exception of a high power long range bolt action, a .22 revolver, and a full power .30 caliber battle rifle. I've already got an AK with lots of ammo and mags, but it's a close range gun. I've got a nice AR15, but it's a heavy barrel, and I don't want something in that weak of caliber that's that heavy and expensive to shoot. I've also got an M1 garand and a bunch of ammo on order for it (I don't know what the hold up with CMP is), but it's slow and awkward to load (for me anyway), and I want something that holds more than 8 rounds.

Lately I've been planning to sell my AR or trade it for an M1A, DPMS, FAL, etc, but with all the renewed talks about another AWB, I don't think the price on that stuff is going to cool off enough that I'd be willing to buy one. But, I still really want a semi-auto with more power and range than my AK.

here's a list of pros and cons I've come up with for my hakim being my long range SHTF gun:

Pros:
-I already own it, plus I still have just over 600 rounds for it, 1 10rd mag, and 2 25 rd mags
-it's more accurate than I am, and I'd put it up against any of the M1 garands I've shot so far (I've only shot 2 though, counting my own), plus, I'll still be shooting after a Garand runs out of ammo
-it doesn't kick (but it also weighs 3 tons and the muzzle break is like having an M80 go off in your face)
-it has a bayonet lug (which isn't good for anything but looks, but that's still really important to me). I don't have a bayonet for it yet anyway, and if it weighed much more than it already does, I wouldn't be able to hold it up
-it has a scope mount, but I don't know how I would mount a scope on it, and if it would work very well
-the bolt and stuff is easy to field strip for cleaning
-it's ugly and unusual (which is what I'm into, since I'm shallow and superficial)

Cons:
-it's ugly and unusual
-it's ungodly heavy and awkward. You can see in the pics I posted, the only gun I have that's longer than the hakim is an 870 super magnum, and that has a 26 or 28" barrel on it. My garand is only a few inches shorter I think, but the garand honestly feels like a toy gun compared to the hakim
-jams are a pain to clear on it. I've had a few high pressure rounds when it wasn't ejecting right, and the dust cover was very tough to get open, and then I needed a cleaning rod (which I didn't have at the time) to get the empty shell out
-it's super loud, and the muzzle blast makes it painful to shoot. I rapid fired 10rounds through it today, and I think I closed my eyes for part of it because of the muzzle blast
-it's a rare, and basically obsolete gun, so I imagine parts are pretty tough to find if something breaks
-ammo availability is a concern too. From what I've read, 8mm surplus is pretty much drying up, and commercial ammo is suppose to be considerably weaker (plus I'd have to readjust the gas system to make it function properly), and cost prohibitive to stock up on
-all the ammo I already have is corrosive, and made in the '70s I believe, so that means lots of cleaning (which I hate), and the ammo isn't as reliable as what newer production .308 surplus most likely is
-I'd want more mags for it, and magazine availability isn't certain. I believe they take converted MG13 mags, and the only place I know of that sells them for a reasonable price is I.M.A. ($25 each). Either the mag or the gun has to be modified to work also (I don't know if my gun was modified, or if my mag was, and the other 25rounder I bought is still in the package), so that's one more thing that could be a reliability issue, plus it's doubtful that there will ever be anymore mags produced for these guns, since there isn't exactly a lot of people shooting MG13s and Hakims nowadays
-it's a hassle to field strip it down to the gas tube, port, etc., but that's not something that should need cleaned too often anyway


here's my list of pros and cons for getting a more modern gun in .308:

pros:
-most likely more reliable and accurate
-better parts availability for replacements or upgrades
-more ammo availability and variety
-lighter and smaller (unless you're talking about an M-60 or something)
-better ergonomics and more functional controls
-non-corrosive ammo
-no annoying muzzle break (depending on gun)
-I'd like to have one

Cons:
-it's highly unlikely that I could find a gun, suitable supply of mags, and the same amount of ammo that I already have for my hakim for under $2k, and some of these guns are way more expensive than that right now, if you can even find one. I've seen saiga .308s for $500-$600 lately still, but I don't know what it costs to convert them, and hi-cap mags are expensive (if you can even find them). I don't want another AK style weapon anyway.
-the price of .308 is freaking ridiculous, when you can even find it
-extra magazines are super expensive, when you can even find them

Going by my list, the main things that make me think I should just stick with the hakim is monetary. Now that it's working properly (I still want to put some more rounds through it though and get it as good as possible), my only real gripes about it is the clean-up after shooting corrosive ammo, and the muzzle blast. It's one of my favorite guns to shoot, and one of the coolest (by coolest I mean ugly and odd) looking combat rifles ever made.

I know a modern .308 would be more practical, but with the costs of stuff right now, I'd have to sell my AR and chip in some more money out of my savings, or just bite the bullet if my AR doesn't sell and cough up a massive chunk of money that I was going to use for a trip to Australia next winter. Around where I live, EBR prices seemed to have started cooling off a little finally, until today when there's more serious talk of a ban again, so I either risk overspending now, or holding off for a price drop, although they could get banned and then I'd never get one.

Regardless of whether I get a .308 or not, I'm still going to pick up a few more goodies for the hakim (it definitely needs a bayonet), but I'm still itching for a FAL or something too. Then again, I'm real tempted to get a .458winmag or something instead, so it will most likely come down to whatever I see at a shop or show that sparks my interest the most.

One of these days when we get some more good weather (probably not till July), I plan on taking out my hakim, my .30-06, AK, AR, and hopefully a .308 if I buy one or can get someone who owns one to go with me, and doing some non-scientific penetration tests against steel to see how much of a difference there is between these calibers. I imagine that .308 AP is pretty close to .30-06, but I don't know how 8mm mauser with FMJ would do, and I only have 20 rounds of 8mm AP (and it's expensive and sold out from the place I bought it).

Another thing, I really don't shoot any of my guns a whole lot, so the main problem with ammo cost is just the initial financial pain of getting enough rounds stocked up to feel comfortable. (I keep at least 1k for my AK, and will probably want at least 500 of 8mm or .308).

I originally wanted open sights on whatever I got, but now I'm thinking I'd rather have a scope instead. It seems like I've read that FALs and M1As are difficult to mount a scope on (and M1As look stupid with optics on them anyway), but I don't know if my Hakim would work with a scope. It has a weaver scope mount on the side of it, kinda like a dragunov or something:


What would I have to do to put a scope on this, and would it get in the way too much and make it too difficult to dissasemble or clear jams?

None of the places I shoot are over 100 yards, and most of the time I shoot at 40 or 50 yards. I'd like to start going to a range or something, or find a better place on BLM land than the places I generally go that would allow the opportunity to start practicing longer shots, but I don't think I would be shooting more than 200-300 yards in a SHTF situation because of the terrain around where I live anyway, so that's another consideration on which gun is more suitable for what I want as well.

So after all of that excessive information, what would you do? Stock up more for the hakim? Or look for a .308? If you think the .308 is a better option, which one would be the best for what I want?

 

[HeavenlySword]

Use an obsolete round when the SHTF? Are you crazy?

The R25, FN SPR, AR 10, FAL, G3-clone types were usually around 1.2k-1.5k

However, on the R25, G3 Clone (if you get the PTR91) you will want to replace many things, such as:
-a shorter barrel for R25
-use bigger FAL magazines for R25
-replace the goddamned PTR91 release with a paddle release, shown here (http://www.arizonaresponsesystems.com/notes/ptr91build/pageptr91build.htm)
-use the G3A4 stock for the PTR91

Remember, stocking up on non-firearms supplies is important too. Toilet paper, water purifier filters, dry food supplies, and fuel are your most critical resources, in addition to ammunition, barrels, and other miscellaneous weapons-maintenance items.

 

[Coronach]

So, you got through seventy rounds with only two jams, and you're asking if it's a good SHTF gun?

OK, reality check.

You should be able to get through seven hundred rounds, preferably more, with only two jams before you even consider asking this question.

As to the rest, you have a wierd rifle with sparse replacement parts and bad ergonomics and non-existant aftermarket support. Not ringing endorsements.

Will the Hakim do in a pinch? Of course. However, your Garand is a much better long range SHTF rifle.

Mike

 

[MachIVshooter]

The Hakim is a really neat C&R gun, but I wouldn't even consider it in a modern combat role. They were never tremendously reliable, and have always been considered heavy & awkward with rather poor ergo's.

 

[Gunfighter123]

As others have said ---- in any kind of life threatening SHTF -- the FIRST thing the firearm MUST do is go BANG EVERY TIME --- two jams in 70 rds. is a life threat TO YOU !!
I would save/sell to be able to get a Modern type battle rifle and my choice would be a SA M1A --- I have owned 5 or 6 of them and they ALL went BANG every time -- 99.9% reliable after a few hundred rds. without being cleaned.

 

[DarkCharisma]

If it's jamming in less then 100 rounds, this is NO gun to be using if SHTF. The AR will do everything you need it to do, as will the AK.

But if you have so little faith in a mean 5.56 and want something bigger, I would think that a LR-308 by DMPS would be the bees knees. (Who made this up? I heard my grandpa say this once.)

 

[coosbaycreep]

I'm still going to fine tune the gas adjustment some and hope it makes it more reliable than that, but I'm sure there will be at least 1 or 2 duds out of every 100 rounds regardless of how reliable the gun is, due to how old it is and what kind of conditions it was stored in, so I guess that's pretty much a deal breaker for SHTF anyway.

Honestly, I figured it was pretty much obsolete as anything but a big plinker too, but I'd still like to get a scope on it anyway.

If I do fork out the cash for a .308 now, at least I won't feel so guilty about it now that I've had other people tell me that's the route I should go. It makes me feel less guilty for wasting money.

 

[Coronach]

Heh. If you want it, get it. Not every gun has to have a rationale.

Mike

 

[Kentucky]

If you truly believe that a SHTF rifle is something you need, then it's purchase takes priority over a vacation to Australia.

However, you may not have to. If you are being really practical, look at what you already have and evaluate it according to need. We know you have:

Hakim
AK
AR
Garand
Shotgun

Now, for SHTF purposes the AK and the AR serve the same purpose. The Hakim as has been discussed is really useless due to it's reliability issues. The Garand could make a decent 600-800 yard rifle, but it will be a little trouble to scope, and will never be as accurate as some.

My advice would be to sell the Hakim, the Garand, and the AR. In todays market I figure that should net you somewhere between $2200 and $2500. I would take that cash and buy a DPMS AR-10 and at least 5 mags. I would get one with a 16" barrel and it will still be very accurate out to 800 yards (should go sub-sonic after that from what I have read). In a pinch, this rifle can also serve as a short/intermediate range carbine as well.

Get something like a Nikon Buckmaster or Bushnell Elite scope to top it off with, a QD mount for the scope, and spend the rest on 308 ammo. You wont need as much for it as you will your fighting carbine.

If you really dont want to spend that much money on the DPMS setup, get a PTR-91 ($1000), a Hensoldt scope and mount ($400), 25 mags ($100), and that still leaves you several hundred for ammo and another AK. Or handgun.

Now you dont have as many guns, but they are better quality and will serve your SHTF purpose much better. The next money I get would be put toward a backup AK, because your fighting carbine is probably your most important weapon in SHTF. Remember, two is one and one is none.

Of course, this is just a very practical way to look at things. If you are really attached to the Hakim and the Garand it probably wont work for you, but that is what I would do given the choices you have laid out.

 

[jpwilly]

^^^ What he said! But don't sell anything you have...you'll regret that! Just save your dollars up!

My DPMS LR-308 Carbine!

 

[jgatsios]

sell that c&r today and buy a Robinson Armament XCR in 7.62 X 39. An Arsenal milled AK would also be an outstanding choice (mine is an SAM7-S).

 

[Golden Hound]

I honestly think the OP already has his bases covered for "SHTF" with his AR and AK. Keep the Hakim and the Garand around to give to the stragglers who join your party later.

 

[hso]

The Hakim is not a go to gun. Reliability and replacement parts are a problem so it is relegated to a "recreational" firearm and not a life saver.

The AR and the AK fill similar roles so are redundant.

For the money that you'd get for your AK you could have a good Garand smith go through your M1 and return it to the battle rifle it was. For what you'd get for your AR these days you could turn it into a superior battle rifle and have money for a scope and mount like the C and D M1s used. 30.06 ammo from CMP is still cheap (.32 a round) and will DRT most any large game in North America.

Or sell all 3 and purchase a .308 and ammo and mags.

 

[Golden Hound]

I truly subscribe to the notion that in a real SHTF scenario (and let's be quite clear here - to me, that means a collapse of civilization and no organized law - anything less does not qualify, to me,) your real strength is in numbers and not in weapons. In other words, if you have two or three or four rifles lying around that are "redundant" and you really are trying to prepare for a real SHTF, you don't want to be selling those rifles to get a better rifle, you want to keep them around so that you can form a group and equip the other people with those rifles. You don't want to be Mad Max-ing it out there, you want at the very least one other person, and ideally a group of three or more, and all of them will need rifles. And if the people who happen to wind up in your group don't have their own rifles, they can use your extra rifles.

In this specific case you're probably better off trading the Hakim for an SKS. It's an oddball weapon and has its charm but as others have said, not really suitable for your needs.

 

[Kentucky]

I truly subscribe to the notion that in a real SHTF scenario (and let's be quite clear here - to me, that means a collapse of civilization and no organized law - anything less does not qualify, to me,) your real strength is in numbers and not in weapons. In other words, if you have two or three or four rifles lying around that are "redundant" and you really are trying to prepare for a real SHTF, you don't want to be selling those rifles to get a better rifle, you want to keep them around so that you can form a group and equip the other people with those rifles. You don't want to be Mad Max-ing it out there, you want at the very least one other person, and ideally a group of three or more, and all of them will need rifles. And if the people who happen to wind up in your group don't have their own rifles, they can use your extra rifles.

If this is the route you decide to go, (and I don't necessarily strongly disagree), then the OP should at least consolidate calibers. One rifle each in 8MM, x39, 5.56, and 30-06 doest not work well for group tactics. That is 4 different calibers, in 4 different platforms, with 4 different manual of arms. If that were the strategy to be pursued then he should liquidate the rest and buy AK's and lots of ammo and mags. This is going to leave holes in his long range abilities, but you cant have everything on a limited budget.

 

[druber]

In my opinion, your SHTF firearm should have AK-like reliability. Don't know when/if you may accidentally drop it into sand/mud/water etc. So for a long range rifle in .308 with semi-auto capability I would choose a M1A. However, I love my modified Enfield Mk III (not much modifications, mainly to reduce weight) and would use that over a semi-auto any day.