Hamilton/Burr dueling info needed!

[Snowdog]

A coworker and I somehow began discussing the famous duel between vice president Alan Burr and statesman Alexander Hamilton. Comparing historical knowledge, we were in agreement until the subject of the pistols used came into question.

I was under the strong impression (though I forgot where I originally learned this) that the pistols used were a custom pair of smoothbore .56cal flintlocks.
The coworkers believes the pistols were rifled .45cal Kentucky flintlocks, which were prevalent dueling pistols in those days.

Does anyone know the answer?
Caliber aside, the main question would be whether they were rifled or smoothbore.

(btw, I would post this in the BP forum, but the traffic there is painfully lacking)

 

[Old Fuff]

Gentlemen did not normally use pistols with rifled bores. To do so was .... well, unsporting.

 

[Hardtarget]

I have lost, (threw it away), my NRA American Rifleman copy that had a great article about the duel and the pistols. You might try their web site...maybe you can go to that issue. Good luck.
Mark.

 

[Remander]

According to the chapter called "The Duel" in the Pulitzer Prize winning "Founding Brothers" by Joseph Ellis (who later got in trouble for exaggerating his personal military history or lack thereof), the pistols were smooth bore and shot .54 caliber balls.

Ellis also says the pistols had a normal 20 lb trigger but had a "concealed device that set a hair trigger" that reduced pull to one-pound "hair trigger". (Someone explain that one to me, please. Not neccessarily doubting; just curious.)

Ellis adds that Hamilton, when asked by his second if he should set the hair trigger, replied "Not this time."

The ornate "custom-made pair of highly decorated pistols" had been used in two prior duels, one of which resulted in a fellow named Church shooting a button off of Burr's coat.

Ellis describes the pieces as "extremely powerful but extremely erratic weapons."

Of course, Hamilton ends up in the grave after it's done. With indictments against Burr for duelling (by then illegal) and murder, he fled to Georgia in disgrace.

No voucher for accuracy of this info, but that's what Ellis reports in his book.

 

[Mal H]

(Pssst, Snowdog - it was Aaron Burr.)

 

[roscoe]

Ellis implies that Hamilton died because he, quite intentionally, failed to tell Burr about the set trigger (the pistols were Hamiltons). Burr intended to wound, but 'missed', killing Hamilton. If Burr didn't have to fight that heavy trigger, he might have hit Hamilton where he intended, in the thigh.

 

[C.R.Sam]

Mal..........

Sam

 

[Coronach]

To quote one of the best commercials, ever:
Awon Buuh!

Mike

 

[Mike Irwin]

There's been a lot of speculation over the years about whether or not Burr intended to wound Hamilton, or to actually kill him.

I personally think it's pretty clear that Burr did intend to kill Hamilton.

The years of increasing animosity that had led up to the duel were perhaps some of the most bitter political infighting that this nation has ever seen, going far beyond what is seen today, with absolutely incredible allegations flying around in the "newspapers" that actually were organs of the different political parties, and the politicans who controlled those parties.

Burr had, according to a number of his confidants, stated that he intended to shoot Hamilton, and I find it very hard to believe that a man such as Burr would simply shoot to wound when he felt that his honor and integrity had been so badly damaged by an opponent.

According to several references I've seen, the pistols were a pair of Wogdon dueling pistols. Wogdon, along with Durs Egg, both of London, made some of the finest dueling pistols in the world at the time.

 

[Ky Larry]

I remember reading a magazine article back in the '70's about the pistols used in this duel. The American Heritige Foundation wanted to make several copies of the pistols made for sale to commerate the Bi-Centineal in 1976. They sent the pistols to a custom gun maker in Italy to be copied.Upon disassembly, he found the set trigger feature.
According to eye wittness accounts of the duel, when the men turned to fire, Hamilton's pistol discharged as he was lowering it to aim. Hamilton looked down at the gun in disbeleif and staggered several steps backwards. The seconds ordered Hamilton to return to his mark. When he did,Burr took deliberate aim and killed Hamilton.
There was a minor uproar in 1976 about this because ,since the pistols were Hamiltons,he had been caught cheating 200 years after the fact.
Please remember, I read this article 25 years ago so my memory may not be exact. If I've gotten my historical facts wrong, please forgive me.

 

[Snowdog]

Yes yes, Aaron. I've never been good with names and unfortunately historical significance sometimes doesn't improve the situation any.


So the specific caliber might be vague, but the pistols were indeed smoothbore?

Thanks for the information.

 

[Ky Larry]

Yes,dueling pistols were smoothbore. Remember,duels were fought to preserve honor. Usually, after both duelists shot at each other and missed, honor was considered restored and the matter was put behind them.

P.S. The oath of governor of the state of Kentucky contains a clause that the governor has never engaged in a duel.

 

[Tom C.]

The Dual

As I recall, in addition to the single set trigger feature, Hamilton borrowed the pistols from his brother-in-law. They were .50 cal rifled, with the set trigger and sights, as opposed to Hamilton's own pistols, that were .45 cal, smooth bore, no sights, dualing pistols.

 

[Keith]

It amazes me to see how many variations there are on the details of this duel. I suppose the Hamilton supporters created one story and the Burr supporters another.
I just pulled up what I could on Google and found no clear answers. I did find one interesting dueling myth...


By the 1860s dueling was on the decline because of legislation and public disapproval. It was also sputtering in Europe, where it was believed the American duel involved DRAWING LOTS AND HAVING THE LOSER SHOOT HIMSELF.
In 1894, one American put that myth to rest, writing, "Why this should be supposed to be the American way of dueling I cannot imagine. If there is any such thing as an American duel, it is what is familiarly known as 'shooting on sight.' The challenger sends word to his enemy that he will shoot him the next time he sees him, and thereupon the latter arms himself, and takes his walks abroad with much caution, until the two meet, when both begin a fusillade with their revolvers, and one of them is usually killed, together with from four to six of the bystanders."

Keith

 

[bountyhunter]

The challenger sends word to his enemy that he will shoot him the next time he sees him, and thereupon the latter arms himself, and takes his walks abroad with much caution, until the two meet, when both begin a fusillade with their revolvers, and one of them is usually killed, together with from four to six of the bystanders

I always wondered where "spray and pray" originated. It turns out, it can NOT be blamed on the new high capacity "wonder nines" after all.

 

[Mike Irwin]

"Shooting on sight..."

That actually happened in the 1850s...

Dan Sickles, the idiot Union General who advanced his unit beyond the Union line and into either the Peach Orchard or Wheatfield at Gettysburg (loosing his leg AND his unit at the same time), shot his wife's lover (the son of Francis Scott Key) to death in 1858 in front of his house.

He was arrested and tried for murder (the last shot at close range, supposedly right between the eyes didn't look good!), but used a new and novel defense that worked... temporary insanity brought on by the rage and shame of being cuckolded...

 

[Mannlicher]

Google is a wonderful thing. Put in Burr/Hamilton Duel, and the very first hit tells you:
"After Hamilton's and Burr's seconds tried without success to settle the matter amicably, the two political enemies met on the dueling grounds at Weehawken, New Jersey on the morning of July 11. Each fired a shot from a .56 caliber dueling pistol. Burr was unscathed; Hamilton fell to the ground mortally wounded. He died the next day."

See how much quicker you could have had the answer?

 

[Snowdog]

Mannlicher,

I do appreciate your effort to help, but also look at the next Google hit and the hit after. The conflicting reports lead me to believe that there is no authority on the web that can decisively answer the questions concerning the pistols used.

My first attempt to find the answer was with Dogpile.com, with my beliefs being satisfyingly confirmed as I read the exact passage you are referring to. Unfortunately, I noticed that very site failed to cite the source of their published information, so I needed to verify... and that's when I hit a wall.
The next hit mentioned .41 caliber rifled dueling pistols, and Hamilton having died two days later.
Also, there seems to be a split as to who fired first. Some say Hamilton made the comment before the duel that he intended not to fire at all and fired only after being fatally struck in the stomach/spine. Other's claim he fired first and missed for various reasons.

It's a real mess.

I do know there are a few books out there on the subject. Hoping some here had these books or at least read them at some point in time and could supply a decisive answer, I eventually posted the query here.
Alas, inconclusiveness seems to extend here as well; there has yet to materialize any concensus.

However, there has been some interesting info supplied. Again, I appreciate all assistance.

 

[Mal H]

It's odd that the pistols themselves aren't in some museum somewhere. You would think that those who attended the duel and the aftermath would have immediately recognized the historical value of them since the duel was between two world famous politicians and not two simple blokes dueling it out in the streets of Bumforge, Mass.

 

[Old Fuff]

One of those books was entitled, "Shots Fired In Anger," which I have, but can't lay hands on right now. It includes a full chapter on the duel, with pictures and descriptions of the pistols. Maybe you can find a copy somewhere.

The guns have also been writen up in several articles in the "American Rifleman." I suggest you contact the NRA and see what information they can provide.

Having seen photographs of the guns, I can assure you that they are not ".45 caliber Kentucky pistols."

As for the guns themselves, they do still exist. Last I knew they were in a collection in New York. One had been altered to caplock while the other remained a flinter.

 

[scotjute]

Its been well known by my family for years that Aaron Burr cheated!

Tom Hamilton

 

[Johnny Guest]

And, just to add further factors - - -

(I hasten to state that single-shot percussion pistols are far from my area of interest and any possible expertise. I do like to read, however . . . .)

Seems I read that this particular pair of pistols could have their triggers "set" by pressing the trigger forward after the hammer was cocked. This greatly reduced the weight of pull. This "single set trigger" was fairly widespread, even in that day, and continued into the 20th century, on target and some hunting rifles.

The presence of set triggers on dueling pistols might well have been considered cheating if both parties were not aware of the option. It really was NOT NECESSARILY cheating, though. A fine pair of pistols, especially ones fitted with sights, might well have been used for self protection, or even sport shooting and small game hunting. The "cheating" aspect comes into play when one of the "gentlemen" takes unfair advantage.

And, speaking of which, I have also read of cased pairs of pistols which had rifling from the breech up to about an inch or two of the muzzle. No rifling was visible at a casual glance. When such a pistol was loaded with a patched ball, it could easily shoot groups a quarter as large as those from a smoothbore. To get around such shenanigans, it was common for the seconds to each load a pistol in one another's presence, the pistols to be mixed and re-cased, and a coin toss decided which primary chose his pistol first.

But, speaking of shenanigans, the seconds sometimes conspired with each other to load the pistols with half-charges, or quarter charges of powder. Alternatively, heavy powder charges with thick wadding, and no bullets at all were not unheard of. As mentioned above, the affair of honor had to do with giving and accepting a challenge, and showing you had the intestinal fortitude to "stand fire." Such performance, even if no blood was drawn, frequently satisfied the requirements of honor, particularly if the insult of slight could be considered inadvertent, or given while intoxicated.

Of course, the "good result" of such a duel rested solidly on the total discretion of the seconds, and the mutual belief of the principals that there WAS INDEED mortal danger. There could be no honor if one of them knew there was no danger.

Dueling has been decried as barbarous, and it was indeed taken to silly extremes at times. On the other hand, it tended to keep politeness at a premium . . . .

Best,
Johnny

 

[sshbiker]

Hey guys,

I got this photo from "Alexander Hamilton" by Willard Sterne Randall. I could only find a few references to the pistols:

"It was the same hair triggered pistol that Hamilton's oldest son had used three years before when he had been killed in a duel."

"They had specially designed hair triggers that, if set, would fire fast and accurately at the slightest squeeze, jerking little; if not, it would take a determined, slower squeeze to fire the oversize, .554-calibre ball."

 

[TexasCharley]

Burr-Hamilton pistols

The Burr-Hamilton pistols were the property of James Church, who also married a Philip Schuyler daughter. Church was an interesting character. A British officer who deserted to the Colonial Army, he also dueled Burr and was wounded. As a deserter, he had been courtmartialed en absentia and sentenced to death. If he ever fell into British hands or was recognized on British soil, he would be summarily hanged. Nevertheless, after recovering from his wound he paid a visit to England. Risky business at best, and the reason for that visit was not discovered until 1974.
In the years following the Burr-Hamilton duel, the pistols came into possession of the Chase-Manhattan bank, where they are to this day. Chase-Manhattan is the lineal descendant of the Manhattan Water Company Bank established by Aaron Burr and others for the express purpose of breaking Philip Schuyler's monopoly on banking in New York.
In 1974 Chase-Manhattan decided to have 100 exact copies of the brace of English duelers made to give as Bicentennial gifts to heavy-hitting depositors. One of the pistols was sent by courier to the Uberti firm in Italy for duplication. When the pistol was disassembled, it was found to have 'blind' or 'hidden' rifling--the last 3 inches of the barrel--about as far as anyone of the time could see into a muzzle-loading pistol's barrel--is smoothbore. The rest of the bore is rifled. The pistol also had a concealed set trigger. The weapon would fire normally with about an 8-pound pull. If the shooter was aware of the set trigger and pushed forward on it until it clicked, the pull was reduced to 8 ounces! The second pistol, still at Chase-Manhattan, was examined and proved to be identical. The reason for Church's visit to England became clear. He went there to have his dueling pistols made into much more efficient murder weapons without anyone in the US knowing about it!
This information was first published in 1975 in American Heritage quarlerly and later that year in Guns & Ammo. It makes obvious what happened in the duel. Hamilton was aware of the set trigger, Burr was not.
Hamilton just got a little anxious and touched off that 8-oz trigger too soon.
TexasCharley

 

[Rockstar]

Any of you guys ever visit the Smithsonian? Right there, for everybody to see, are both pistols: Hamilton was shooting (much to his regret) a Colt Woodsman, First Series; Burr was shooting a .41 rifled pistol.