Hand Weapon for Untrained Person

[ArfinGreebly]

Kill Mode?

It may be well to remember that, since the objective in self defense is not "to kill" the attacker, but rather "to stop" the attacker, a better term for this might be "overwhelming force" mode.

Whether you have distance or not, your counter-attack needs to overwhelm the aggressor.

If he's not overwhelmed, he's not gonna stop.

Once he has been adequately overwhelmed and presents no further threat, that's when you break off.

In close quarters, engaging in an overwhelm attack, you will be too busy staying alive to focus on whether the assailant lives or dies, but only that he has stopped assaulting you.

 

[ChaoSS]

Sometimes an attacker can be stopped with a low level of force. An unruly drunk in a bar may stop after he gets a good clock on the head. He may stop when you threaten him with a cane, or when you draw a knife. He may quit when two big guys grab him and tell him to settle down.

I don't advocate going into kill mode just because you are in a fight, but we do need to acknowledge that there is no way to stop an attacker other than killing or completely incapacitating them. I suppose that is a benefit of a weapon like a blunt object, it is easier to knock out a knee, knock someone out, break an arm, do what is needed to stop someone without killing them. There are times, however, when something like that is simply insufficient.

 

[ArfinGreebly]

Do What Is Sufficient

I suppose that is a benefit of a weapon like a blunt object, it is easier to knock out a knee, knock someone out, break an arm, do what is needed to stop someone without killing them. There are times, however, when something like that is simply insufficient.

And in that case, you would need to do what is sufficient.

 

[ChaoSS]

My only real point here is that what is often missing is not the training to use a weapon like a knife, but rather the will and determination to survive.

My secondary point was that a knife, even a small one, can often be a better weapon than something like a cane, although that is not without merit.

 

[Azul]

Collapsible batons are nice. An air weight 21" ASP is light and compact enough for easy carry and will put some distance between you and your attacker. A 16" is very good for a really confined space, it can be deployed and swung with force within a small car (my car at least.)
You don't really need to be trained to use a baton effectively in a self-defense situation (except for a little practice expanding it quickly). It's just a fancy stick, swing hard and aim for vulnerable spots.

 

[unloved]

You probably couldn't carry it around with you but, in a bedroom or office, I'd take one of these over an ASP or cane any day.

 

[spd1303]

I would have to agree with danbrew. A dog is a good choice. And the whole idea behind my suggestion was if u are untrained a paintball gun would help you keep distance from the bad guy. And I don't know about any of u, but if I got shot with a paintball gun a few times without any protection, I might rethink my opitions

 

[ChaoSS]

You probably couldn't carry it around with you but, in a bedroom or office, I'd take one of these over an ASP or cane any day.

That is slower than an asp. Throwing that at someone would do some damage, and that would make a hell of an impact if you can land a blow, but I'd rather take my chances with an asp.

I'd still rather have the knife when I can't have the gun though.

 

[unloved]

That is slower than an asp. Throwing that at someone would do some damage, and that would make a hell of an impact if you can land a blow, but I'd rather take my chances with an asp.

I don't know about slower. I certainly wouldn't throw it. I've got a lot of experience with making hammers do precisely what I want them to, so I'm quite confident I could land a series of devastating blows. The lowly hammer is also quite effective in hooking, trapping, blocking, and control maneuvers.

I'd still rather have the knife when I can't have the gun though.

I prefer guns and knives myself. I'd feel pretty good with my hammer in one hand, and my knife in the other, though.

 

[ChaoSS]

I don't know about slower. I certainly wouldn't throw it. I've got a lot of experience with making hammers do precisely what I want them to, so I'm quite confident I could land a series of devastating blows. The lowly hammer is also quite effective in hooking, trapping, blocking, and control maneuvers.

Slower. I've got alot of experience hitting things with hammers too, but the fact is that a hammer is simply slower than an asp. If someone manages to get out of the way of a strike with an asp, a quick wrist flick could redirect the weapon and still hit your opponent. A hammer isn't so easily moved.

Hammers are great for hitting targets that don't move. That's what they were designed for. The war hammer was an incredible weapon, but it was best employed against a heavily armored target that could not move as quickly, but needed alot of power to punch through.

Slip that hammer back in your bags, pull out your catspaw. That's light enough to move more quickly, heavy enough to do some damage, and there's a good chance you could make that thing do more damage than a hammer, or less, if you wished.

 

[JShirley]

An unruly drunk in a bar may stop ... when you draw a knife

Except that one should only use a knife defensively if you feel you or family are threatened with death or serious injury. In that case, your attacker should not know you have the knife until- perhaps- he is losing consciousness. Brandishing a knife is a good way to die.

For that matter, threatening anyone with anything is legally dubious and foolhardy.

J

 

[22-rimfire]

I don't know if I could do the quick stabbing without some hesitation which would announce the "knife". Obviously, you are correct about brandishing. I would have to be scared to death to just pull a knife out and use it without hesitation. Training would help considerably, but I can't see myself getting trained to use a knife. You X-military folks definitely have the advantage in this department.

 

[hso]

As JShirley pointed out we're talking about the use of deadly force and that obligates us to leave that to situations where we have a reasonable fear for our lives. A mouthy drunk in some bar does not equal that situation, usually. 3 mildly intoxicated thugs in a parking lot may. Those same 3 thugs where one picks up a brick/rock/pipe and says they're going to split your skull certainly does. Don't pull a knife unless a reasonable person would be in fear for their life.

It is important for us to know that use of many of the non-firearms weapons we discuss can be viewed legally as equivalent to the use of a handgun and we have the same legal obligations for reasonableness for their use.

BTW, training in the use of these weapons isn't that difficult to get and isn't that expensive. Single seminars are taught all over the country by trainers that travel and by local SD/martial arts schools on weekends. One seminar and some regular practice can make a huge difference in how well you defend yourself with any weapon. You must have the will to defend yourself and you should have the means.

 

[Marlin 45 carbine]

a swift kick in the groin or a knee to same area and an eye gouge and a crack on the noggin with a 3-D flashlight will adjust a 'tude quickly. easily executed by someone capable of pressing 100 lbs. that 20 oz estwing is a good one too.

 

[22-rimfire]

It is important for us to know that use of many of the non-firearms weapons we discuss can be viewed legally as equivalent to the use of a handgun and we have the same legal obligations for reasonableness for their use.

BTW, training in the use of these weapons isn't that difficult to get and isn't that expensive. Single seminars are taught all over the country by trainers that travel and by local SD/martial arts schools on weekends. One seminar and some regular practice can make a huge difference in how well you defend yourself with any weapon. You must have the will to defend yourself and you should have the means.

Good points that everyone needs to keep in mind. Deadly force is deadly force. I may have to check into available seminars, but I have no idea how to look for such offerings. Not really interested in martial arts training.

 

[Carl Levitian]

"You know, I'm quite tired of that old, ridiculous saying. I can't count the number of times I've heard people claim that a knife in the hands of an untrained user is more likely to get taken away and used against you. What a load of utter crock.

If someone has the talent to take a knife away from me before I can cut him up, then it doesn't really matter if he takes a knife from me, because he obviously has such prodigious skill that he could kill me or inflict any amount of damage on me that he wishes.

A person determined to defend themselves will not lose their weapon so easily, and I'm tired of people perpetrating that asinine myth."


Thank you sir, for bringing up this fact. Anyone thinking they can disarm a person with a knife and not get grievous damamge, give a co-worker or friend a magic marker and tell them its a knife and for them to cut you come close. See what happens when you try to take it away from them. The determination of the person is way more important than what he or she is armed with. Musashi killed more than one fellow samurai with a wooden bokan while they used a sword. Yes, training is nice, but a criminal is not looking for a root hog or die fight. Quickness and agility goes a long way as well. When I was into fencing, there was a 5 foot 4 inch little lady who was a rank beginer, but was wicked quick with a foil and scored against some much more advanced foes. Being a beginner, she didn't know she was making some wild untrained moves, and so drilled some upper classmen right in the heart.

Fear, determination, and adrenilaine surge can make one do very unusual things.

As for someplace where the law does not let you carry a weapon, like the OP, theres only two other ways to go; man's oldest weapon, a club of some sorts, or man's second olderst weapon, a cutting tool. A small sharp knife in a layered defense with a stick of some sort will do well in a repressive environment. Stick first, then knife in case it gets closer.

 

[gadinort]

For anyone, especially an untrained person, the first thought should be evasion. You may have to hit, kick, stab, scream, etc before being able to get away, but the assumption should be that if you know nothing (untrained) then your attacker likely knows much more about fighting than you.
After leaving a bar, a young woman's first thought on seeing a few goons with pipes in the parking lot should be to run back into the bar, not try to stab their eyes with her car keys! That being said, keys, letter openers, your mouth full of teeth, and a thumb digging into an attacker's eye are all useful as last ditch attempts.
But really, there is no excuse for not having some sort of training!

 

[22-rimfire]

But really, there is no excuse for not having some sort of training!

Really? What kind of "training" do you envision?

 

[ChaoSS]

Except that one should only use a knife defensively if you feel you or family are threatened with death or serious injury. In that case, your attacker should not know you have the knife until- perhaps- he is losing consciousness. Brandishing a knife is a good way to die.

It's all dependent on the situation. People have been killed in bar brawls before. I got jumped once by a couple of drunks who thought I had wronged them, and I thought I was going to have to defend myself with more than my fists. I'm not suggesting you pull a knife when some drunk gets in your face. I was just pointing out that there are different situations that call for different levels of violence to defend yourself.

 

[76shuvlinoff]

Wasp and hornet killer directed into the attacker's face(s). I know it's an aerosol device but how illegal can it be?

 

[nalioth]

Wasp and hornet killer directed into the attacker's face(s). I know it's an aerosol device but how illegal can it be?

Considering that when the military uses it, it is considered a "chemical weapon" (specifically a nerve agent), your guess is as good as any.

 

[commygun]

CRKT Bear Claw. Easy to conceal, easy to retain.

 

[Deltaboy1984]

Cane or a D-cell mag lite.

 

[JShirley]

I was just pointing out that there are different situations that call for different levels of violence to defend yourself.

Maybe my point was not clear. I am not saying never use a knife. I am saying, never brandish a knife. If you have to use it, do so, but don't just pull it out believing the mere sight will stop an attack.

You produce it without fanfare, and get to cuttin' without preamble.

That's the only way to use a knife that won't make it more of a liability than a potentially lifesaving tool. Otherwise, someone will get distance and just shoot you (and may even find legal justification). And, unfortunately, you will have it coming for using such poor tactics.

John

 

[ChaoSS]

Do you really think that is best? I mean, I know that guns and knives are very, very different weapons, but most SD uses of guns do not involve discharging the weapon.

If you are in a situation where your life is definitely in danger, then yes, get to cutting. If you are in a situation where nothing big is at stake, such as a simple drunk, you are probably best not drawing a weapon.

However, I can imagine a number of cases where pulling a knife and getting to cutting will get you locked up, especially in states that are less friendly to those engaged in SD, but going unarmed may just get you injured. I can imagine it being good to open up a little bit of space, draw a knife, and, without "brandishing", tell them to back down. If they are so intent on harming you that they charge a guy with a knife, you can reasonably say that you are in fear for your life. This wouldn't be against someone who might be carrying a gun, but it does have it's place.