Handled and HK today, very impressed

[Sean Dempsey]

In my continued search for the right handgun, I handled my first HK today while looking for a Sig.

I am trying to choose the best handgun for my wants, and I had though the Sig was it. Basically, I wanted a SA/DA with a de-cocker. I find out with the HK USP today, though, that they have those features AND thumb safety.

The price is comparable to a Sig, but the added thumb safety is very appealing to me. As I am handling it in the store, I remember here that someone recommended for my needs a gun with a decocker, but NO thumb safety, but they didn't say why.

So where I am looking to drop about 800 bucks on one of the HK USP's in the near future, I am wondering what the crowd here will say about these weapons, and their decocking/safety features and possible advantages and disadvantages. I know these guns come highly recommended and that HK is a trusted brand the world over, I'm more asking about the theory behind decocking, SA/DA, and a thumb safety, and why some are very FOR and very AGAINST such features.


Thanks

 

[PPGMD]

The most common variant of the USP is the V1 with the slide release and the safety decoker on the left side of the pistol. You can change both of those, and the action of the pistol simply by getting the correct parts kit installed.

Anyways it depends how you carry, if you are carrying cocked and locked you need a safety. I also like a dedicated decoker because it's a much more reliable way of decocking your pistol.

Now my carry pistol is a Walther P99c AS, it has a butter smooth 8lb double action trigger pull, and cocking it only requires less then a .25" of slide movement. I carry it decoked with a round in the chamber.

My competition, daily shooter, and night stand pistol is a USP 40 v1. I usually keep that cocked and locked, but I don't carry it except at the range.

Edit: On the bottom of this page is a chart of USP variants, you can convert any USP to and from these variants, and you can add or remove the LEM trigger group.
http://hkpro.com/usp.htm

 

[MK11]

I've heard people (including John Farnham) criticize the HK set-up for cocked and locked, saying that in a pressure situation you could go to release the safety and actually push it so far that it de-cocks the gun. I have no idea if it's true or not, just an FYI.

You CAN shoot very well with a DA/SA, although a lot of people prefer a constant trigger, since the first pull is long and heavy and the transition to a short, light pull can be jarring. A lot of people bring up the famous Jeff Cooper quote about DA/SA being "an ingenius solution to a nonexistant problem."

De-cocking is fine, as long as you remember to do it. I was in a class where one of the students stuffed a Sig P229 back in the holster--still cocked. Nothing happened but it was definetely an "Uh oh" moment.

I'm still using a DA/SA mostly because I haven't found a Glock/XD I liked as much as a Sig, or a 1911 I trusted as much. I do like the M&P though, and may switch over to that for a constant trigger.

 

[Sean Dempsey]

I should add I want to carry it in my car or in my bag/purse with a round chambered, but decocked and saftey on. And in the nightstand, decocked and safety off.

I do not need a "on the body" gun as I carry a 638 and/or 642 IWB.

 

[whited]

.

You can carry a USP cocked and locked.

To me, that is the main reason to have a thumb safety.

HK calls their action a 'modified Browning action' and it is like a 1911 in this regard. The decocker is a nice feature.

It seems strange to me at first glance why anyone would recommend
a decocker but no thumb safety.

 

[Sean Dempsey]

In this thread http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=261827

Cheygriz said:

A good DA auto is just as safe as a revolver with a round chambered. Get a DA semi-auto with hammer drop only and no manual safety of any kind and carry it the same as a DA revolver.

 

[loplop]

Handling means (almost) nothing. Try shooting them.

You'll figure out which one is better for you, and it's not always the one you initially thought.

 

[hrgrisso]

My Argument AGAINST a Thumb Safety

While there are many adherents for a Cocked and Locked option I personally have no use for them.

For the record, I can shoot them just fine. But as for a nightstand, go to gun, I cannot recommend it. Here's why.

When training, most people do not train to disengage the safety (they should, and if you do, great). But without dedicated training, most people in a 'situation' will not think to disengage a safety.

My story. I'm a SIG guy in a family of 1911 people. A few Berretta's find their way into the crowd but that's neither here nor there.

I was trying out my new Berretta Px4 here about a year ago. One night I hear a BANG/Crash at my front door. Grab my gun and my light immediately charging into the darkness ready to do battle with whatever goblins threatened my girls (wife & 2 daughters). Thankfully it was just a neighbor who works nights dropping a BIG box of stuff on his way into his apartment.

It wasn't until afterwards when I was putting my gun away that I realized in the whole situation, I had never disengaged the safety.

Now this is more a comment on me, as well as on training, but without the right kind of proper training, in my mind a safety for cocked and locked makes no sense.

Buy what you like, train for reality. Know what failures to expect. If your willing to train, you probably won't make a bad choice!

PS: Still love the Px4 had it converted to a DA/SA pistol and Switched my nightstand gun back to a Sig. Berretta is my truck gun.

 

[Sean Dempsey]

Handling means (almost) nothing. Try shooting them.

There's nowhere to get access to this gun (or any handguns) to shoot. There are no formal ranges around here (indoor or outdoor), and the only friend I have that is into guns has a S&W Sigma.

small town living has it's drawbacks. I think the closest place I could maybe try out a gun is 5 hours away. I just gotta go on research.

 

[HorseSoldier]

If you don't want to use the safety on a V1 USP, you can simply use it as a decocker. I'd still go with the V1, as it is there if you want it, but not necessary for use.

 

[prolanman]

You could also go with the HK P2000 V3. This is a DA/SA with a decocker on the rear of the slide. The slide release is ambi. The DA is about 11lbs or so and the SA is 4.5. There is no safety on this model.

 

[PPGMD]

I've heard people (including John Farnham) criticize the HK set-up for cocked and locked, saying that in a pressure situation you could go to release the safety and actually push it so far that it de-cocks the gun. I have no idea if it's true or not, just an FYI.

Don't like the safety go to the Variant 3 and 4. Personally I have had no issues at all with accidentally decocking it, it requires a much longer amount of travel, personally I have to move my hand very slightly to get my thumb to naturally travel that far.

Anyways for the person that dislikes DA/SA trigger, you can get both a DAO, and the LEM trigger group for the USP. One of the advantages of the USP, with the right parts kit you can change the action just about any way you want.

 

[gudel]

also note that you can retract the slide while the safety is on.
all my USP's have Variant 1, except my P2000 LEM.

 

[Wordsmith]

I've owned a boatload of HKs, many of them USPs. As others here have stated, the advantage of the Variant 1 trigger is that you can carry the USP safely in single-action. I've also heard the supposed downside often repeated: that you might accidentally decock the gun while flicking off the safety. In hundreds of rapid draws with a cocked-and-locked USP, this has never happened to me.

These days, though, I prefer an HK P2000 for carry. It's an evolution of the USP, and though it doesn't offer cocked-and-locked capability, the rear-mounted decocker makes the gun thinner. The slide is also more rounded and thinned out than the USP's, making the P2000 a more comfortable gun when carried inside the waistband. I never carry my USPs anymore since getting the P2000. In fact, I'm selling them.

Also, you don't have to pay $800 for an HK. CDNN has P2000s for $659 and USP Compacts for $599-$699.

 

[10-Ring]

I like carrying my USPs chamber loaded, hammer decocked & safety off. I've fired enough rounds that I find the DA/SA transition natural and the longer DA initial pull comforting.
I'm not a SIG fan but there ALOT of them out there, many of them are here on THR. I am the HK fan through & through & recommend them highly -- IMO, if you get the HK, you'll influence your firearms purchases forever

 

[PPGMD]

It seems to me that the P2000 was designed for the LEM trigger group which is why it doesn't have a safety. If it was designed (from the get go) for the double/single group I think that they would have put a safety of some sort on the gun.

 

[nemoaz]

In my continued search for the right handgun, I handled my first HK today while looking for a Sig.

Did you take time to look at the HK's absurd magazine release? You must break your grip to try to leave that stupid thng. I can palm a basketball easily and there's no way I can reach it. Our factory trained instructors advise all the shooters with normal sized hands to use either their trigger finger or their offhand to release the magazine!!!! I guess it is a slight improvement over the heel release on all the other HK stuff.

And of course, no other pistol uses the same motion as the P2000/USP so you may get yourself killed if you forget what weapon or backup you are using.

The stock trigger on the USP isn't great either. P2000 has a better trigger, but no safety. (And the same absurd magazine release.) I do find the USP/P2000 trigger the easiest to stage of all long travel DAO's I've handled.

The external safety seems to be a nearly extinct beast. It's funny that the tactical talking heads think that a shooter can't remember to swipe off a safety but fully encourage level II and level III holsters that require 2-4 steps to get your damn hogleg out of the "leather."

For the price of the HK, you could get two equally capable XD's, Glocks, MP, or other pistols. I like the idea of the XD's grip safety.

IMO, if you get the HK, you'll influence your firearms purchases forever

Yeah, I'm on my third one, USPc, P2000sk, and now P2000. I vow to never purchase one of these... forever. Unless they change that stupid mag release.

 

[usp9]

whited said,

It seems strange to me at first glance why anyone would recommend
a decocker but no thumb safety.

I'm one who likes a decocker but no safety. When I draw a weapon, to me the perfect weapon is one that all I have to do is pull the trigger. No thumbing a hammer, no safety lever, nothing but a trigger to pull. However I do want to safely ease the hammer down after loading, thus the desire for a de-cocker. My CCWs reflect this philosophy; a Seecamp, P7, P2000SK and a Sig P232.

Draw, aim, fire. Keeping the K.I.S.S. principle makes sense to me. Fear makes people forget things. That's my reason at least.

 

[PPGMD]

Did you take time to look at the HK's absurd magazine release? You must break your grip to try to leave that stupid thng. I can palm a basketball easily and there's no way I can reach it. Our factory trained instructors advise all the shooters with normal sized hands to use either their trigger finger or their offhand to release the magazine!!!! I guess it is a slight improvement over the heel release on all the other HK stuff.

Hmm I personally have no issues using middle finger from my right hand to operate the trigger release. The only thing I have to do to make it work is to take my finger off the trigger.

My P22, and my P99 use a similar magazine releases too.

 

[modifiedbrowning]

Basically, I wanted a SA/DA with a de-cocker.

Another good option is the Walther P99 or P99Compact (AS version). They are great guns and usually sell for $525-575.

 

[Sean Dempsey]

For the price of the HK, you could get two equally capable XD's, Glocks, MP, or other pistols. I like the idea of the XD's grip safety.

I have owned 3 different XD's and sold them all. I would not own an XD again, or for that matter a Glock or similar handgun.

I ejected the magazine a bunch of times at the store, I didn't notice anything about the release that was odd or difficult to operate, felt fine to me.

I specifically want a weapon I can decock and place into a manual safety mode. Seems like the majority of the people here like the HK USP, and a few don't. The Sig was the first choice until today, but I think the HK has won out.

I do understand that alot of people here are concerned with fast operation and a quick-draw. Not wanting to worry about DA/SA or a safety being on or off makes sense. For me, an instantly "ready to fire" weapon is not a priority - I have 2 J-frames I carry that will fire without preparation. But for a full-size semi-auto handgun, the decocker and safety seem like what would work best for me. This gun will be in my purse, in my car, or by my bed. The need for a instant quick-draw and fire isn't something I would rely on this gun for.

Plus, I wear my IWB with the J-Frame so far tucked into my jeans, a quick-draw isn't possible anyways. If I need to quick-draw, I've already made a series of bad mistakes.

I do find it interesting the recommendations on the XD's though. The XD was my first gun, and I bought 2 more after that, but eventually sold them all because I didn't feel comfortable carrying them loaded. So, when I did have it on my person, it wasn't loaded and to use it, I would have to pull the slide back to load a round.

With the HK, I can load a round, decock, and then put the safety on. That is how I would prefer to carry, even if alot of the people here think that is how the cops will find me ("Get a load of this Harry, he couldn't quickdraw and his gun is still safed!!")


I do like the info I am getting on the HK though, hearing from owners is a big advantage.

 

[mkonops]

I've got a variant 3 USP and love it. I also have a Sig P226, and if I had to choose between the two I'd take the Sig. With a nice set of Nill grips, there is no gun more comfortable than a Sig - IMO.

 

[nemoaz]

I ejected the magazine a bunch of times at the store, I didn't notice anything about the release that was odd or difficult to operate, felt fine to me.

You mean you didn't notice it was a lever that you push down???? You got other pistols like that?

I do find it interesting the recommendations on the XD's though. The XD was my first gun, and I bought 2 more after that, but eventually sold them all because I didn't feel comfortable carrying them loaded. So, when I did have it on my person, it wasn't loaded and to use it, I would have to pull the slide back to load a round

With some DAO's you can put on heavy springs to approximate your j frame revolver pull. Glocks call these NY or NY plus triggers. If you don't feel comfortable with it... you don't. I understand. The HK is kinda innovative in allowing different carry options.

This gun will be in my purse,

Friends don't let friends carry manpurses.

 

[gudel]

You mean you didn't notice it was a lever that you push down???? You got other pistols like that?

the mag release push down is really a non issue. in fact, it is preferred by me, it is very useful during a fast reload.

you won't understand it unless you own one.

 

[Autolycus]

If you like the Sig and DA/SA guns look into the HK P2000. It is a real nice gun with great ergonomics and is completely lefty friendly.