Handloading and the Professional LEO

[Quoheleth]

I was reading Skeeter Skelton today (Hoglegs, Hipshots & Jalepenos) this morning in my office when it dawned on me - here was a law enforcement officer who handloaded the vast majority of his own ammo, using his own cast bullets which he (or a jailed trustee) made for him. He would - by his own admission - shoot through hundreds of rounds a week. Now, I'm sure that the vast majority of that was target/plinking work, but even still, that's a lot of ammo.

What got me thinking was his article about the (then-new) .41 Magnum, touting it as the workaday lawman's cartridge. His frequent comments were that he and others hounded ammo makers for two loadings - a hot-rod and a mild one - "for those who don't handload, or even for those who do." He then went on to describe the two offerings as almost as hot as a .44 Magnum (too much) and soft as a hot .38 (too soft). The ammo makers - at that time - missed the point, thereby damning the .41 before it even got going.

I'm not up on my .41 loads, but even if I were, LEOs can't even take the risk of handloading anymore, can they? I mean, not for duty. We talk about it all the time in our conversations as plinkers, but it's almost (dare I say it) personally irresponsible for an officer - unless in dire emergency - to dare use a home-rolled round for duty, because of the *&^% legal threat.

Not so much a question as a thought and comment...

Q

 

[rcmodel]

You are exactly right.

But those were distant times and different places.

Those old time lawmen like Skeeter, Bill Jordan, Charlie Askins, Harlin Carter, and many many others would probably all be in Federal Prison today for some of the other more serious stuff they all did at one time or another.

Wouldn't fly in todays kinder, gentler PC law enforcement world we live in today.

rcmodel

 

[zxcvbob]

I read somewhere of a handloading lawman that developed a load that he liked, then contracted with a small ammo manufacturer to make it to his specifications -- just to get around any legal/ethical/procedural issues with using non-factory ammo. I think it was a heavy-bullet .45 ACP load.

The article was written in first person, but i don't remember who. Seems like a good solution though.

 

[rcmodel]

Only if it was a one-man department and he was the Chief.

Todays LE world will almost certainly demand that officers only use issue ammo selected & blessed by the department ammo Pope.

And they will also demand that everyone use the same ammo.

rcmodel

 

[Ridgerunner665]

Forgive my language...but theres only 1 way to say it

Thats PC bull**** at work...I liked the old days far better.

 

[zxcvbob]

Only if it was a one-man department and he was the Chief.

Todays LE world will almost certainly demand that officers only use issue ammo selected & blessed by the department ammo Pope.

If I recall correctly, he was the dept "ammo Pope". I wish I could remember the name.

BTW, will a wide-nosed SWC ("Kieth" style) bullet feed reliably in a 1911?

 

[rcmodel]

Not in a lot of guns, unless they have been throated to handle them,

A good alternative is the flat point truncated cone.

It has the flat nose that transmits shock like the SWC, but is designed to feed in most 1911's as well as FMJ-RN.

451 45 CAL 230 GR FMJ/FP ENC
2nd. from bottom on this page:
https://www.hornady.com/shop/?ps_se...&category_id=359fe1327d3936033c58b4c83a69f1d3

rcmodel

 

[scrat]

I bet reloader fred could give a good take on this. if i remember correctly he used load for LEO

 

[Skip_a_roo]

I live in Indiana. I know of one fellow that carries a M629 with a trigger job, (he did it himself) and engraving out the ying yang. He also carries his hand loads in it! 180gr JHP with a whole bunch of 2400 behind it! He has to qualify with it that way in order to carry it. He has a small gun shop/range and hand loads as a side business too. Maybe he has a license from the ATF to produce ammo, I don't know. The department isn't that big but it is more than one and no, he isn't the chief. I recently asked a famous gun writer that knows this officer how he could get away with that. All I got was shrugged shoulders. You see, the gun writer knows this person personally!

I can't say anymore about this so don't ask. I asked the officer himself about it and he said "It has never come up in a court proceeding."

Good enough for me, I carry my hand loads as self defense rounds exclusively.

 

[Quoheleth]

Todays LE world will almost certainly demand that officers only use issue ammo selected & blessed by the department ammo Pope.

Not if the chief was a Lutheran

I can't say anymore about this so don't ask. I asked the officer himself about it and he said "It has never come up in a court proceeding."

Personally, I wouldn't take the chance, but I bet a lot of that depends on the jurisdiction and whom he knows in the courts. Here in Houston, with every legal eagle in town hunting a big score, that's asking for trouble. In other parts of Texas, it might not be as big a problem.

Q

 

[scrat]

i dont see how it would come up. I mean i just dont see in an officer involved shooting. Would he have to put in the report weather the officer used handloaded ammo or factory made ammo. So if its not mentioned in the report why would it come up in court.

 

[Skip_a_roo]

scrat, well said!

I guess that is what upsets me most about those that keep bringing up the whole handload for ccw issue. There has NEVER been a case where hand loaded ammo was the determining factor in a DEFENSIVE shooting. Not in an LEO shooting, Not in a civilian one either.

It's just fear mongering, plain and simple. Take our freedoms away in the pretense of safety or exoneration of guilt. DRIVES ME CRAZY!


The only case Mas and others quote was a situation that has more holes in it than Swiss cheese! Hand loads wasn't the issue in that case either, mitigating circumstances were!

At any rate, I don't want to hijack the thread. We just got done with this over on the Smith forum. If you want to torture yourself read it. It's in the reloading section too.

 

[coloradokevin]

You are exactly right.

But those were distant times and different places.

Those old time lawmen like Skeeter, Bill Jordan, Charlie Askins, Harlin Carter, and many many others would probably all be in Federal Prison today for some of the other more serious stuff they all did at one time or another.

Wouldn't fly in todays kinder, gentler PC law enforcement world we live in today.

Ahh, yes... "Kinder/gentler" is like our mission statement these days.

Rcmodel is right on the mark on his comment.

I can't risk using anything except the ammunition my department hands me. First, they tell us what is allowed, second (and more importantly) is liability.

If I were to handload my duty ammo, and use it in a shooting:

1) If the guy wasn't stopped immediately, I would be blamed for having sub-standard ammo. (liability)

2) If the guy died, I'd be blamed for having "extra lethal" ammo, or some such nonsense (liability, again).

As a case-in-point:

We are issued a different .223 cartridge for duty use than the one we use in practice. Unfortunately our department is always in short supply on this round (Federal TRU). So, we only really get one magazine worth from the department.

Most of us who carry rifles realize that we could potentially end up in an active shooter situation where extra ammo would be a great idea! So, most of us load "practice" ammo into extra magazines for those "just in case" scenarios (our practice ammo is XM193).

But, if I were to use that in a shooting, it is an automatic minimum of a 1 day suspension... Now imagine if I were to use something I handloaded at home!

i dont see how it would come up. I mean i just dont see in an officer involved shooting. Would he have to put in the report weather the officer used handloaded ammo or factory made ammo. So if its not mentioned in the report why would it come up in court.

Following a shooting in my department, the officer's gun is temporarily confiscated. Internal affairs responds to the scene along with various detective units. The crime lab guys run tests on the gun, check how much ammo is remaining in each magazine, photograph the scene, pick up casings from the scene, attempt to recover bullets, etc (just like on any crime scene... But they certainly go the whole nine yards on ours).

Every minute detail is documented on our shootings, because the department is worried about the potential for liability if it isn't.

Simply put, the odds are very high that they will easily figure out what ammunition we used in a shooting. And, if it is anything other than our issued ammo, everything I mentioned above is applicable.