Hangfire! Hangfire!

[jr_roosa]

I had an unbelievable event today at the range. In one batch of rounds, I had almost 1/3 of them hangfire in my Garand. Normal ejection, brass looks fine, solid hits on primers, unsure of hits on target since I moved my head away from the sights while waiting. The last hangfire was about 90 SECONDS, and my shooting partner verified this, since time passes slowly with hangfires. Some of the others were near 30 seconds, many were 5-10 seconds. There was a clear "click" of the hammer dropping, and repeat trigger pulls did nothing. I wanted to shoot up the batch to get rid of it, but the 90 second one convinced me that I was being stupid and I should stop. That last round I inspected by hand before I shot it, and it had a good primer seat below flush, and had powder that I could hear with a shake.

Mixed GI brass, Winchester LR primers (I'm 1/2 way through the brick with no other issues), IMR4895 47 gr, Hornady 150gr FMJBT bullets. I primed, seated, and charged on my Dillon, and I visually checked every round for powder. This was the first batch of rifle ammo on the 550B, so I was being double extra paranoid.

The powder and primers are the same I used 2 days ago at a match without any issues on rounds loaded the day before this batch.

I had this issue long ago with Win748, but I stopped using ball powder in .30-06, and I wondered if humidity was an issue then. People then were incredulous that I could have more than a 10 second hangfire.

http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=539155&highlight=hangfire

My thoughts are that the powder and primers are fine given normal performance in other loads the day before. There was maybe a thunderstorm that day, and I reload in my garage, so it's possible that I had high humidity, but the weather underground puts the dewpoint that day at 42deg. We were shooting in the mountains at about 55deg and at 8000 feet. Maybe I got some condensation in the case from the cool morning weather? That range is the same one I always shoot at, and have had no issues with hangfires there.

Also, maybe the Dillon wasn't seating the primers solidly enough? Primers should be all-or-none though if seating was an issue.

Thoughts? I'm going to start pulling bullets. I'm also going to buy a hygrometer for my loading bench.

-J.

 

[carbine85]

My guess is the powder got damp somehow. Hard to say if it's the powder or condensation in the case. If you brought the cases into a warm spot from a colder spot they could have condensed some. It wouldn't take much. I suppose the powder could do the same thing.

 

[243winxb]

What method was used to clean the brass before loading?

 

[TheCracker]

Sounds crazy. Only thing I could think of is humidity inside your cases as you mentioned.

55 degrees! That would be amazing. It's still hitting 98 every day here!

 

[jr_roosa]

Brass was tumbled in walnut last year and stored in a paper lunch bag in an empty Fat Tire beer case. Rcbs case lube to size and then tumbled off for a little while in corncob after it was loaded, which is my usual technique for everything but long range loads.

Beautiful day at the range anyway. Sunny, cool, and a few puffy clouds.

Google buffalo creek gun club for pix of the range in the mountains.

J.

 

[Slamfire]

How deep did you seat your primers?

I have had problems with primer pockets reamed too deep. Caused misfires, maybe it could cause a hangfire.

I did have the experience of misfires in 40 ish, 50 ish weather with a handgun. The mainspring was worn out though the primers looked well hit. I was using a ball powder and it was cold. I had hangfires, misfires. I replaced the mainspring with a new one, went out in slightly warmer weather, no hangfires or misfires.

 

[jr_roosa]

The primers were below flush but some felt flush. The RCBS primer seats consistently below flush.

As I was troubleshooting, I shot a couple that felt a little high and they were fine.

I'll pull them all and fire off the primers to see if they all go bang. Not very scientific but we will see.

-J.

 

[Slamfire]

Oh good God, do not load high primers in a Garand or any gas gun. If the anvil is seated firmly and pushed into the primer cake, with a high primer you have created the perfect conditions for an in battery or out of battery slamfire.

If the anvil is not seated firmly and the primer cake not pushed into the anvil, you are more likely to get misfires. However, people have gotten the things to fire on a second strike.

Seat your primers about 0.003". It is my recollection that Frankford Arsenal set them to 0.000" to 0.005" deep. I tried seating them to 0.008" and got misfires when I used that ammunition in a bolt rifle.

 

[jr_roosa]

None were actually high. I was displeased with the Dillon seating depth for this very reason. I like them seated deep. Flush seating gives me the heebie jeebies, but those ones didn't seem to hang. Rounds with high primers get pulled and reseated.

-J.

 

[PO2Hammer]

Do you tumble after de-priming?
Maybe media in the flash hole?

 

[jr_roosa]

Sometimes I tumble the lube off loaded so I don't have to clean the flash hole. These were like that.

Long range stuff I tumble between sizing and loading and then pick the media out by hand.

J.

 

[jr_roosa]

The powder looks and smells fine, it metered to +/- 0.3 grains or so, the primers all go "bang" about the same way, and I can't really seat the primers too much deeper with my RCBS hand primer (I tried this after the bullet and powder were removed).

I think I'll just write this off to some unknown contamination, probably moisture condensing on the primers or powder. I'm burning the powder, resizing and cleaning the brass, and reloading the bullets with new primers and powder.

Thanks for the input, and if you ever have a hangfire, leave that rifle pointed downrange with the action closed for a few minutes. I'll probably go for 5 minutes if this ever happens again.

-J.

 

[PO2Hammer]

I never thought a hang fire of more than a few seconds was possible with modern smokeless powders.

 

[medalguy]

In my time in the AF we always told our troops to wait 2 minutes at a minimum in the event of a hangfire, and to keep the muzzle under control during that time. Alibi shots were allowed after everyone else had completed the course of fire. That doesn't seem like a long time but as you know, in the event of a hangfire that's forever.

 

[1KPerDay]

90 seconds?!?!? That's scary.

 

[ArchAngelCD]

Oh my goodness, really? 90 full seconds? I would have gotten hurt because I rarely wait longer than 30 seconds before ejecting the round. I have waited 9 seconds for a round to fire that felt like 90 seconds but a real 90 seconds is very scary! I would have gotten hurt I think!!!

How long do most others wait?

 

[jr_roosa]

I never thought a hang fire of more than a few seconds was possible with modern smokeless powders.

Neither did I. Our range is about a 15 minute drive from cell phone coverage, 25 minutes to a paved road, and maybe an hour to the nearest trauma center. I wasn't touching that op-rod handle to blast that bolt through the receiver and into my shoulder or catch a face full of brass bits. My nightmare thought was the round cooking off the instant I unlocked the bolt lugs, but while it was still in the chamber. 60,000PSI against an unlocked bolt. Yikes!

When it went a full minute, I thought it was time to check my watch and wait a full 5 or 10 minutes for everything to cool off. I was actually thinking that one had to be a dud and looking for a way to get the rifle somewhere that it could sit safely where the muzzle was in a safe direction, and where the free recoil wouldn't scratch the thing up. There were no rifle racks at the 200yd line, and the only surfaces were the ground, the back of my truck, my rifle case, and the shooting bench. About 30 seconds into that thought process it fired, and I still had it pointed at the berm and I still had the rifle against my shoulder.

Remember the rules at all times, I guess.

-J.

 

[gamestalker]

I've never experienced a hang fire, and the only mis-fires I've ever experienced were with factory ammunition. But with mis-fires I usually wait 20 or 30 seconds. As far as a 90 second HF goes? 5 or 10 seconds seems extreme in my opinion, but I've never had one or even seen one happen before.

As for my method of reloading, I clean the lube off by rinsing my brass with either alcohol or acetone, and then tumble it in walnut media until it looks completely clean, and no dust is sticking to it inside or out. I realize this seems extreme, but I'm very OCD about my reloading practices, as I feel that over a long peroid pf time and hot / cold conditions could turn lube residue into a vapor, thus contaminating the powder or primers. I maintain an extensive inventory of loaded ammunition, sometimes I'll have ammunition that won't get completely used up until I have a use for it some 10 or 15 years later, it always funtions flawlessly.

GS

 

[243winxb]

For a 90 second hangfire, i would guess tumbling media in the cartridge. Winchester has had primer problems since they moved the plant, but no hangfires that i know of.

 

[warhwkbb]

I'm betting on walnut media in the flash holes.

 

[edfardos]

that's worse than watching the toaster or a jack-in-the-box!

90 seconds -- well done, glad you're okay!

I don't use 4895, so I'm curious how full the case is? 80%?

 

[jr_roosa]

I'm betting on walnut media in the flash holes.

Nope. These cases saw no walnut between sizing and priming. They were tumbled at the end.

I'd say the powder level is about 1/8" below the shoulder. Lots of air.

-J.

 

[jr_roosa]

I still had half of the cases to pop the primers in...it was too loud and late last night.

I got out my ophthalmoscope (the thing for looking in the back of people's eyes). It works great for looking in cases...it has an adjustable magnifier and has a reflector that shines the light straight to where you are looking.

Anyway, no walnut in the flash holes, no walnut granules in the pulled powder, but one case had powder lodged in the flash hole. Maybe more had this and the granules got knocked out when I was pulling the bullets? I wonder if you lit one end of a granule, had a misfire from blocked flash hole, and it smoldered until it could light the rest of the powder?


Untitled by jr_roosa, on Flickr

Must be from tumbling loaded rounds. Never had a problem before...maybe this mixed GI brass had the perfectly wrong sized flash holes to make this happen. Maybe this and a little bit of moisture all together?

Who knows.

-J.

 

[fguffey]

“Who knows” is normally followed by “what evil lurks etc..” As to the who knows about the delayed fire, I do, problem it only happens to me.

I was ask to test a rifle involved in a will with the ammo included. The first attempt resulted in a delayed fire. There was no second attempt, I returned home and pulled 3 boxes of ammo down, some of the cases had powder caked from front to back, some had powder caked in the head of the cases, others had powder caked behind the bullet. One of the examples could result in a disaster.

The caked powder took a few minutes to burn through, I did not load the ammo, had I been the loader I would have opened the bolt and kicked the case with the dent in the primer out.

Then there is the primer, I do not have a guarantee the primer will not have a flawed delay burn, and, I have never tumbled loaded ammo, when I want to show off at the range I have shinny ammo, shinny ammo is not necessary but, JIC.

F. Guffey

 

[jr_roosa]

I only polish a second time to take the lube off.

J.