Hangfire on 454 Casull; Advice Requested

[toadeye]

I just loaded my first rounds ever and took them to the range this week. I wanted to create low recoil range rounds for my 454 Casull pistols so that I could actually practice firing more than 20-30 rounds in a range session before I wear myself out.

I loaded 454 Casull Magnum with the following at 5 different powder loads based on Freedom Arms load data:

Primer: CCI Small Rifle, Magnum
Bullet: 255 gr Hi Tek MBC, Cowboy #9, SWC, .452 diameter
Powder: 231, at 8.5 g, 9.5, 10.5, 11.5, 12.5

I lubed the cases with a spray on both sides with Hornady One Shot, and then loaded the rounds.

I fired the ammunition through a 6" Freedom Arms Model 83, and a 2.5" Ruger Super Redhawk Alaskan.

I experienced hangfires on roughly 20% of the 8.5 gr loads, and 10% of the 9.5 gr loads. The hangfire delay was always less than a second. The hangfire resulted in extremely low recoil. Perceived recoil was less than a 38 special out of an N-frame revolver. A hangfire out of the Ruger resulted in the bullet getting stuck in the barrel. The Ruger also had a lot of unburnt powder. I was only able to fire 3 8.5 gr loads out of the Ruger before the bullet became stuck.

I suspect the tighter tolerances between the cylinder and frame on the Model 83 helped propel the bullets out of the pistol with the low compression hangfire, and the looser tolerance on the Ruger resulted in the bullet getting lodged in this barrel.

The 454 Casull is a large case, and there is a lot of room in that case with only 8.5 gr of powder. Heck, there's a lot of room with 12.5 gr of powder.

Do you think my hangfire was caused solely by the low amount of powder? Could the hangfires have been partially caused by lube interacting with the powder? Do you think a faster burning, but still low recoil and FA recommended powder, such as Bullseye could be more effective in avoiding hangfires, particularly in the Ruger? Should I apply a tighter factory crimp? I've noticed that some of my commercial rounds, particularly the HSM 454 325 gr Bear Loads, are exceptionally factory crimped.

FWIW, I shot my best group from the rest out of the 83 with 11.5 gr of 231. And, offhand, perceived recoil was less than a 44 magnum out of a 6.5" N-frame; low enough to shoot all day.

 

[murf]

i would try a cci 300 primer and less crimp.

what color is the "unburned" powder?

luck,

murf

p.s. welcome to the forum!

 

[toadeye]

Thank you murf.

The unburned powder is slightly brownish or, maybe, some extra iridescence on the dark grey 231. But there are full flakes of powder in the cylinder and around the back of the barrel.

 

[Cheesemaker]

i would try a cci 300 primer and less crimp.

The 454 Casull uses small rifle primers not pistol primers due to the pressure.

How much crimp were you applying? Why did you need to lube the cases - what dies are you using?

I have loaded a lot of 454 Casull (no Magnum in this cartridge name) -I have never used the powders you have listed. I typically load mine in the mid-range of published loads. Even those can be a handful in the Alaskan.

 

[EricBu]

Off the cuff, I'd say yes, 231 is somewhat case position sensitive and in that big ol' case..... Take a brass rod to the range with you for future tests. I'd shoot the 12.5 next over a chrony and see where you're at and go from there. If you are getting unburned powder AND hangfires, I'd definitely think powder position (you can tilt gun back before firing to test), but also you may need more crimp. If you are getting soot and unburned powder, definitely tighten up that crimp. I prefer TG for my big case downloaded ammo, as it cares less about case position.

And you say you got the load data from FA......but did you verify that is indeed 454 data and not 45 Colt data? Because if you use low end colt data in a 454 case......

 

[murf]

Thank you murf.

The unburned powder is slightly brownish or, maybe, some extra iridescence on the dark grey 231. But there are full flakes of powder in the cylinder and around the back of the barrel.

that indicates a low pressure powder burn. the regular pistol primer should ignite the powder without pushing the bullet out of the case.

luck,

murf

 

[CoalCrackerAl]

Sometimes a magnum primer will help with powder burning.

 

[murf]

oh, and it sounds like you are playing outside the bounds of the reloading manuals ... be careful. i suggest you switch to a 45 colt case and a slower "legal" load.

luck,

murf

 

[toadeye]

The 454 Casull uses small rifle primers not pistol primers due to the pressure.

How much crimp were you applying? Why did you need to lube the cases - what dies are you using?

I have loaded a lot of 454 Casull (no Magnum in this cartridge name) -I have never used the powders you have listed. I typically load mine in the mid-range of published loads. Even those can be a handful in the Alaskan.

Thank you.

I'm using Hornady Custom Grade New Dimension Nitride 4-die. I'm crimping the brass into the crimp cannelure with the seater die, and then applying a very slight factory crimp. This is my first time, so I figured it would just be easier with One Shot lube. I'm also loading 44-40, and if the cases aren't lubed with one shot, I have a hard time extracting them from the expander die on the Hornady Cowboy set.

Based on what you're saying and what EricBu is saying, it sounds like I should put a bit more of a crimp in there, and stick with bigger loads.

FWIW, I can hold on to the Alaskan with its Hogues a lot easier than the Model 83. Those micarta grips need a death grip on the hot loads. I almost get more fun out of the 83 with hot loads handing it to curious strangers at the range ("Hold on tight!")

 

[toadeye]

oh, and it sounds like you are playing outside the bounds of the reloading manuals ... be careful. i suggest you switch to a 45 colt case and a slower "legal" load.

luck,

murf

The loads are coming straight from Freedom Arms. They're generally pretty conservative with their load data. And they advised me against firing 45 Colt out of a 454 cylinder. I don't know if that's mostly because they want to sell me a 45 Colt cylinder, but I've seen other people comment in various forums that 45 Colt can cause damage to FA revolvers chambered in 454 Casull.

 

[ballman6711]

First, welcome to THR!

oh, and it sounds like you are playing outside the bounds of the reloading manuals ... be careful

This^^^. I just looked at FA's website and they aren't showing any data for a 255gr coated bullet. They do show a jacketed bullet, but in 240gr and 260gr using HP-38 (which is the same as W231).

Be sure when using One Shot to spray it well, then walk away for a few minutes to let it dry. I usually walk away and have a cup of coffee or a cigarette (or both) before going back to begin loading.

I would also recommend seating and crimping in separate steps, and using a heavy crimp so the round can build enough pressure for a complete burn in that large case.

Pics of your loaded rounds would help if you can post them.

chris

 

[Seedy Character]

Low charge and powder position are the culprits.

Change powders. Stick to published loads.

Shoot .45 C cowboy loads, for reduced recoil.

 

[ballman6711]

Oops, just looked again, and they do have W231, but it's for a 260gr Jacketed Flat Point.

chris

 

[toadeye]

First, welcome to THR!



This^^^. I just looked at FA's website and they aren't showing any data for a 255gr coated bullet. They do show a jacketed bullet, but in 240gr and 260gr using HP-38 (which is the same as W231).

Be sure when using One Shot to spray it well, then walk away for a few minutes to let it dry. I usually walk away and have a cup of coffee or a cigarette (or both) before going back to begin loading.

I would also recommend seating and crimping in separate steps, and using a heavy crimp so the round can build enough pressure for a complete burn in that large case.

Pics of your loaded rounds would help if you can post them.

chris

I might be able to post pics later this evening.

Maybe I made a bad assumption from naivety, but I had assumed that the pressure for a 255 gr coated bullet would be similar to the pressures generated for a 260gr jacketed bullet of the same diameter? Here's the load data I was using: https://freedomarms.com/wp-content/uploads/2022/03/454-Loading-Data.pdf

 

[Slamfire]

I looked at 45LC loads on Hodgdon's website to see just where you were in respect to a 45 LC.

https://hodgdonreloading.com/winchester/winchester-231

Clearly your loads are above the 45 LC loads, and I don't have any idea of the pressures. Hodgdon does not show any 454 Casull loads for W231.

I absolutely do not believe that increasing the powder charge is wise or even the problem. Missing from your account is the ambient temperature you were shooting. Cold weather is very stressing on an ignition system, I know because I have had hangfires and squibs in cold weather (40ish) with a tired mainspring in a 357 Magnum. The squib load loaded the bullet right in the throat.

This is the squib load, after I used a block of wood and a long shafted screwdriver to knock the bullet out of the throat. Which incidentally pushed the bullet back in the case




here is what the primer looked like



View attachment 1118587



looks nicely hit. Deep dent, should be giving complete ignition, right? Well looks are deceiving. The next week I was back at the range, slightly warmer temperatures and a new mainspring. This load which was AA9, which is a ball powder, went bang each and every time. I have found ball powders are particularly hard to ignite in cold weather, in pistols and rifles. The ignited powder in the squib case looked like gray/black cotton candy. It was crunchy and fluffy. Very weird.

So here is my guess: Hard to ignite primers, cold outside weather, and a marginal ignition system. The factory can tell you if your firing pin extrusion is too shallow. I have found insufficient firing pin extrusion will cause hangfires and misfires. Measure the firing pin extrusion and call the factory as to what is the min and max. And try to get out of them, a maximum length firing pin, or an overlength firing pin. I would also seriously consider finding new mainsprings, as new mainsprings never hurt.

If you have to send the pistol back to the factory, ask to see if they are measuring ignition strength by copper indent depth, and ask about the firing pin offset on the primers. If the factory can't tell you that, or has no idea what your are asking, recommend them for a Cabinet level job in the Executive branch. As they are clearly so incompetent, they don't know they are incompetent. Firearms manufacturers should have standards for both.

And, if you are looking for powder puff loads, try small pistol primers. Cups are thinner in small pistol primers, and if they seat, they will go bang, and won't pierce till you are in the 40 kpsia range. (a guess) If you are really determined to use small rifle primers, go find Federals. They are the most sensitive primers on the market, and my PPC friends used them in their revolvers with their lightened trigger pulls and mainsprings. Federals will go bang with a marginal ignition system when other primers won't. They are too sensitive for gas guns with free floating primers though! Federals are the most slamfiring primers on the market in AR15's, M1 Garands, M1a's, M1 Carbines, and Mini 14's. But they are fine in bolt guns and revolvers.

CCI primers are still "commercial" primers, which means their sensitivity is within SAAMI specs for commercial primers. They might be on the less sensitive side of commercial specs, but they are more sensitive than military primers. CCI are known for having thick cups, but that is not a problem if the ignition system is strong.

Primers and primer characteristics are one of the largest areas of ignorance for the shooting community. The importance of strong and complete igntion is basically ignored, and yet it is so critical.

 

[ballman6711]

That's the same data I looked at. Sometimes data for jacketed is the same or similar to lead/coated, but usually not. I would look for lead data to use with a coated bullet. Do you have a manual you could look at?

I will take a look at my Lyman manual and see what it says.

chris

 

[ballman6711]

Just looked at my manuals, neither my Lyman Cast nor my Lyman 50th shows load data for W231 although both show data for a 255gr lead bullet.

Hodgdon's website doe's show data for Trailboss in a 250gr lead bullet, but it may be difficult/impossible to find right now.

chris

 

[CoalCrackerAl]

Take a look here. Page 364 start at,
http://marvinstuart.com/firearm/Man...ding Handbook - 48th Edition - 2002 - ocr.pdf

 

[BBarn]

I just loaded my first rounds ever and took them to the range this week. I wanted to create low recoil range rounds for my 454 Casull pistols so that I could actually practice firing more than 20-30 rounds in a range session before I wear myself out.

I loaded 454 Casull Magnum with the following at 5 different powder loads based on Freedom Arms load data:

Primer: CCI Small Rifle, Magnum
Bullet: 255 gr Hi Tek MBC, Cowboy #9, SWC, .452 diameter
Powder: 231, at 8.5 g, 9.5, 10.5, 11.5, 12.5

I lubed the cases with a spray on both sides with Hornady One Shot, and then loaded the rounds.

I fired the ammunition through a 6" Freedom Arms Model 83, and a 2.5" Ruger Super Redhawk Alaskan.

I experienced hangfires on roughly 20% of the 8.5 gr loads, and 10% of the 9.5 gr loads. The hangfire delay was always less than a second. The hangfire resulted in extremely low recoil. Perceived recoil was less than a 38 special out of an N-frame revolver. A hangfire out of the Ruger resulted in the bullet getting stuck in the barrel. The Ruger also had a lot of unburnt powder. I was only able to fire 3 8.5 gr loads out of the Ruger before the bullet became stuck.

I suspect the tighter tolerances between the cylinder and frame on the Model 83 helped propel the bullets out of the pistol with the low compression hangfire, and the looser tolerance on the Ruger resulted in the bullet getting lodged in this barrel.

The 454 Casull is a large case, and there is a lot of room in that case with only 8.5 gr of powder. Heck, there's a lot of room with 12.5 gr of powder.

Do you think my hangfire was caused solely by the low amount of powder? Could the hangfires have been partially caused by lube interacting with the powder? Do you think a faster burning, but still low recoil and FA recommended powder, such as Bullseye could be more effective in avoiding hangfires, particularly in the Ruger? Should I apply a tighter factory crimp? I've noticed that some of my commercial rounds, particularly the HSM 454 325 gr Bear Loads, are exceptionally factory crimped.

FWIW, I shot my best group from the rest out of the 83 with 11.5 gr of 231. And, offhand, perceived recoil was less than a 44 magnum out of a 6.5" N-frame; low enough to shoot all day.

I used W231 in the 454 under jacketed bullets for a couple loads several years back and had no issues with squibs or cleanliness. Speer's 14th edition manual lists a load with W231 and uncoated 270 gr. cast bullet. If you still want to work with W231 and coated cast bullets in the Casull, I'd probably try a firmer crimp if the ones previously loaded had a light crimp.

I found a few of the fast/medium powders that seemed to work OK with lighter loads in the Casull, but all my work with that cartridge has been with jacketed bullets.

 

[MEHavey]

I lubed the cases with a spray on both sides with Hornady One Shot

Toadeye.... By the above do I correctly surmise you sprayed inside the case ?

.

 

[Bfh_auto]

I just loaded my first rounds ever and took them to the range this week. I wanted to create low recoil range rounds for my 454 Casull pistols so that I could actually practice firing more than 20-30 rounds in a range session before I wear myself out.

I loaded 454 Casull Magnum with the following at 5 different powder loads based on Freedom Arms load data:

Primer: CCI Small Rifle, Magnum
Bullet: 255 gr Hi Tek MBC, Cowboy #9, SWC, .452 diameter
Powder: 231, at 8.5 g, 9.5, 10.5, 11.5, 12.5

I lubed the cases with a spray on both sides with Hornady One Shot, and then loaded the rounds.

I fired the ammunition through a 6" Freedom Arms Model 83, and a 2.5" Ruger Super Redhawk Alaskan.

I experienced hangfires on roughly 20% of the 8.5 gr loads, and 10% of the 9.5 gr loads. The hangfire delay was always less than a second. The hangfire resulted in extremely low recoil. Perceived recoil was less than a 38 special out of an N-frame revolver. A hangfire out of the Ruger resulted in the bullet getting stuck in the barrel. The Ruger also had a lot of unburnt powder. I was only able to fire 3 8.5 gr loads out of the Ruger before the bullet became stuck.

I suspect the tighter tolerances between the cylinder and frame on the Model 83 helped propel the bullets out of the pistol with the low compression hangfire, and the looser tolerance on the Ruger resulted in the bullet getting lodged in this barrel.

The 454 Casull is a large case, and there is a lot of room in that case with only 8.5 gr of powder. Heck, there's a lot of room with 12.5 gr of powder.

Do you think my hangfire was caused solely by the low amount of powder? Could the hangfires have been partially caused by lube interacting with the powder? Do you think a faster burning, but still low recoil and FA recommended powder, such as Bullseye could be more effective in avoiding hangfires, particularly in the Ruger? Should I apply a tighter factory crimp? I've noticed that some of my commercial rounds, particularly the HSM 454 325 gr Bear Loads, are exceptionally factory crimped.

FWIW, I shot my best group from the rest out of the 83 with 11.5 gr of 231. And, offhand, perceived recoil was less than a 44 magnum out of a 6.5" N-frame; low enough to shoot all day.

My experience isn't with 454. But it works the same with cast in handguns.
If there are squibs.
Make sure you aren't contaminating
inside the case.
Then use a heavier crimp.
Switch to a Magnum primer if your pistol will ignite them.
Increase powder charge.
Switch to a more easily ignited powder.
Do this one step at a time.

 

[EricBu]

Thank you.

I'm using Hornady Custom Grade New Dimension Nitride 4-die. I'm crimping the brass into the crimp cannelure with the seater die, and then applying a very slight factory crimp. This is my first time, so I figured it would just be easier with One Shot lube. I'm also loading 44-40, and if the cases aren't lubed with one shot, I have a hard time extracting them from the expander die on the Hornady Cowboy set.

Based on what you're saying and what EricBu is saying, it sounds like I should put a bit more of a crimp in there, and stick with bigger loads.

FWIW, I can hold on to the Alaskan with its Hogues a lot easier than the Model 83. Those micarta grips need a death grip on the hot loads. I almost get more fun out of the 83 with hot loads handing it to curious strangers at the range ("Hold on tight!")

Just a quick comment here. 44-40 is a different beast.....the taper means you load it more like a bottle neck than a straightwall, so that means lube. If you are using carbide 454 dies, and you aren't pin cleaning or using new brass, you probably don't need to lube the cases, or if you still choose too, just a minimal amount amount would be fine.

 

[GooseGestapo]

It’s “lost” knowledge that Spherical powders don’t reduce well. They have deterrent coatings that require a bit more umph to ignite, as You’ve noticed.

For reduced loads, I recommend either Bullseye or RedDot. These readily ignite and don’t leave lots of unburned granules.
Advice to use .45Colt brass is good, too.

 

[EricBu]

It’s “lost” knowledge that Spherical powders don’t reduce well. They have deterrent coatings that require a bit more umph to ignite, as You’ve noticed.

For reduced loads, I recommend either Bullseye or RedDot. These readily ignite and don’t leave lots of unburned granules.
Advice to use .45Colt brass is good, too.

OP is correct in that FA says no 45 Colt in their 454. That's enough not to do it for me, but honestly, I suspect it's more that they just want to avoid the pain point of newbie wheel gun owners RMA'ng guns because of sticky extraction and cracked 454 cases where they sat on the carbon ring. I mean, us old wheel gun guys have lived with this forever with the whole list of the 32 caliber revolver family, 357 and 44 Mag...the long time wheel gun guys know we need to spend some time cleaning that cylinder.....FA's consumer base on their BFRs is made up of more than a few guys (not that the OP is new too wheel guns, obviously not since he owns a 44-40) who never owned a wheel gun before...just easier to tell them to never shoot 45 Colt in them.

 

[MEHavey]

I'm also loading 44-40, and if the cases aren't lubed with one shot, I have a
hard time extracting them from the expander die on the Hornady Cowboy set.

1. Do not spray inside the case.
....1-Shot is great if outside and allowed to evaporate.
....But inside? Fouled powder and primers... guaranteed

2. I have a hard time imagining the thin 44-40 neck interfering w/ expander extraction
....But if there's an issue, spray the inside of the die, and allow to evaporate as usual
....(You'll probably only have to do it intermittently -- if ever again at all)