Hard hitting and soft shooting 357 / 38

[Ru4real]

This load will punch through deer or pigs. It’s accurate, economical and fun to shoot for almost anyone. It doesn’t lead the bore with this powder combination. Because of the powder type, bullet length and primer type it’s not position sensitive. It will function in any 357 / 38 lever gun.

As a beginner, this would be a great load to start with because there is nothing like it commercially.

Very fun and easy shooting in my Kimber K6S 4”, S&W 586 Silhouette and Colt Officers Model.

Reference for the start of my work up

View attachment 1132521

Final load information after work up

Bullet - Missouri Bullet Company 180 grain hard cast compared to a regular 158 grain jacketed hollow point

View attachment 1132522

Powder - Hodgdon Tightgroup 4.0 grains
Primer - Magnum, CCI-550
Finished overall length - 1.500”

For best accuracy, I used only Starline brass. The top 2 are Starline. The bottom one is Remington brass. Because the Remington brass is thinner, the Lee Factory Crimp Die did nothing to this case.

View attachment 1132535

Velocity comparison versus barrel length. Nice, tight velocity spreads.

View attachment 1132531

One of several 25 yard targets showing accuracy and velocity spreads jive for this load

View attachment 1132532

 

[Ru4real]

View attachment 1132534

 

[mdi]

Never had a need for heavy for caliber bullets. When I went walking in black bear country, carrying my 357 Mag., I used 158 gr. LSWC. I Didn't feel under gunned. If you can get accurate load that you can shoot accurately, excellent!

I did not hunt with a 357, but preferred a bit larger caliber. I could keep hunting accuracy out to 75 yards with my 44 Magnum loads of a 245 gr. LSWC over a good charge of WC820 in my Ruger SBH...

 

[.45Coltguy]

Interesting load in a .38 spl case. I load 11.5gr 2400 under that same bullet from Missouri in .357 cases using Starline brass for my Henry[20" barrel] and Ruger BH with 6.5" barrel with very good results. Pretty easy shooting in both firearms, but, will get the job done.

 

[Frulk]

Curious if I’m reading this right. You’re using .38 Special brass?

I can’t find any info on your clip of the Hogden data that says what caliber it is. Is that data using .357 cases or .38 Special?

 

[Ru4real]

Curious if I’m reading this right. You’re using .38 Special brass?

I can’t find any info on your clip of the Hogden data that says what caliber it is. Is that data using .357 cases or .38 Special?

The loading table is Hodgdon 38 Special +P from their website.

Yes, I’m using 38 special brass.

 

[.45Coltguy]

The loading table is Hodgdon 38 Special +P from their website.

Yes, I’m using 38 special brass.

Ahh, like Frulk, I looked at Hodgdon regarding .38 spl, not +P.

 

[GeoDudeFlorida]

This load will punch through deer or pigs. It’s accurate, economical and fun to shoot for almost anyone. It doesn’t lead the bore with this powder combination. Because of the powder type, bullet length and primer type it’s not position sensitive. It will function in any 357 / 38 lever gun.

As a beginner, this would be a great load to start with because there is nothing like it commercially.

Very fun and easy shooting in my Kimber K6S 4”, S&W 586 Silhouette and Colt Officers Model.

Reference for the start of my work up

View attachment 1132521

Final load information after work up

Bullet - Missouri Bullet Company 180 grain hard cast compared to a regular 158 grain jacketed hollow point

View attachment 1132522

Powder - Hodgdon Tightgroup 4.0 grains
Primer - Magnum, CCI-550
Finished overall length - 1.500”

For best accuracy, I used only Starline brass. The top 2 are Starline. The bottom one is Remington brass. Because the Remington brass is thinner, the Lee Factory Crimp Die did nothing to this case.

View attachment 1132535

Velocity comparison versus barrel length. Nice, tight velocity spreads.

View attachment 1132531

One of several 25 yard targets showing accuracy and velocity spreads jive for this load

View attachment 1132532

I said 25yds because that’s actually a long way around these parts. Between the kudzu and palmetto it’s hard to see an animal the size of pig much past spitball range.
You got a lot different results from TiteGroup than me. My 200gr powders are Unique, 2400, No.9 and 4100. I’m looking for something like the same velocity but I never got it out of a 6-1/2” RBH or 4” Lawman with TiteGroup. Different guns, different results. Pretty typical.

 

[Ru4real]

You got a lot different results from TiteGroup than me.

What kind of results did you get with Tightgroup?

I’ve had good success with 2400 also.

 

[Mr_Flintstone]

I played around with loads like those a couple years ago. I settled on IMR 4227 as a possible hunting load because it gave 1050 fps from my Henry, and was ragged hole accurate at 25 yards. I never wound up using it though.

 

[jmorris]

I have a whole bunch of loads that have been tested and proven many times over. If I diverted from what I have used 357 magnum on game animals successfully, I’d probably start with testing them on stuff that I don’t really care how they die but I could still dispatch fairly quickly if the load didn’t turn out to work very well.



A 170gn bullet at 832 fps is only 261 ft/lbs of energy. Not that 261 ft/lbs can’t kill but the margins for error get smaller. For perspective, that’s less energy than a .22 magnum.

 

[GeoDudeFlorida]

What kind of results did you get with Tightgroup?

I’ve had good success with 2400 also.

From the 6” and longer barrel revolvers and Cast Performance 200gr WFN-GC I was getting .38S&W velocity: 700-750fps and brass that showed signs of not sealing well at the case mouth. Scorched rims are a sign of gas leak before the bullet has left the case. With the HandiRifle I was getting closer to 900fps but that is still just barely above what Ramshot Competition can do with less heat and lower costs (at the time). I also used .38Spl cases. This was testing for a .38Spl revolver load.

I use the same bullet in .357Mag and .357Max. Of all the powder combinations I tested in .38Spl for it, Unique came out on top, followed by Accurate No.5. In .357Mag/Max 2400, No.9, and I4227 give about the same performance but barrel length changes the equation quite a bit. TiteGroup is just too fast for my guns and heavy bullets.

 

[Barbaroja]

You didn’t leave an option on your poll for “Dont hunt with that weak loading”

 

[Ru4real]

You didn’t leave an option on your poll for “Dont hunt with that weak loading”

Well, I guess that’s one opinion. Last hunting season I made a follow up shot and hit, with a bow, at 93 yards on an Elk.

Given only two choices, the bow using hold over on a 60 yard sight pin, or my 586 with the load detailed on this thread, I would have used the 586.

 

[Barbaroja]

Well, I guess that’s one opinion. Last hunting season I made a follow up shot and hit, with a bow, at 93 yards on an Elk.

Given only two choices, the bow using hold over on a 60 yard pin, or my 586 with the load detailed on this thread, I would have used the 586.

How is killing an elk with a broadhead relevant to the conversation of this 38spl load.

 

[Ru4real]

I know the lethality and my ability of both the bow and handgun at that distance. I got lucky with the bow.

With my 586, I could make that 93 yard broadside shot to an elk boiler room any day, all day long. It wouldn’t be luck.

I’m assuming you are asking an honest question.

 

[Soonerpesek]

How is killing an elk with a broadhead relevant to the conversation of this 38spl load.

How is this NOT relevant...??

Given only two choices, the bow using hold over on a 60 yard pin, or my 586 with the load detailed on this thread, I would have used the 586.

 

[PWC]

Title is oxymoron...

 

[Barbaroja]

I know the both lethality and my ability of both the bow and handgun at that distance. I got lucky with the bow.

With my 586, I could make that broadside shot to the elk boiler room any day, all day long. It wouldn’t be luck.

I’m assuming you are asking an honest question.

I understood what you meant. I’m saying your ability to hit at that distance doesn’t make the load more or less effective.

 

[joneb]

I think the 16" barrel is needing a bit slower powder like Unique, vv n-340 or WSF.
With that 185gr pug I get around 1500 fps in a Rossi 92 w/a 20" barrel using H-110. I may tame that down a bit in the Rossi with vv-n110 or 2400 and see what the handgun thinks.

 

[Varminterror]

I’d bet heavily - top to bottom - on killing performance of a properly weighted arrow with sharp broadhead blades over a chubby little 38 slug on a leisurely jog through the air.

But it simply doesn’t take that much to kill deer.

My mental circus right now is internal deliberation as to whether I think there is any range at which I believe there would be any kind of differentiation of performance… I wouldn’t be terribly confident anything different would happen between 25 and 75 yards - I think the deer is going to travel, but going to die, and not likely to bleed much. I’ve shot deer with snub-nosed 357’s and with 9mm’s, 44spcl’s and 45 Colts, some of which were in this ballpark for speed and several not terribly far off on weight. It’ll kill deer, but it won’t be a hammer, won’t be “hard hitting.”

If those bullets open at that speed, they’ll slow down fast, but there still isn’t much power to call “hard hitting,” and if they don’t open, it’s just a nail tearing a hole on its way through… we’re not talking about deer reacting like they were struck by lightning or smacked with a hammer. Punch a hole, watch where it travels, sit tight, have a cigar, eat a sandwich, let it crash, let it die, and go find your venison.

 

[Ru4real]

But it simply doesn’t take that much to kill deer…..Punch a hole, watch where it travels, sit tight, have a cigar, eat a sandwich, let it crash, let it die, and go find your venison.

Agree.

The purpose of the thread is to present a slow, hardcast 180 grain blunt nose 38 caliber slug that any handloader can make, and just about everyone can comfortably shoot.

The purpose of the poll and follow on discussions is about challenging “gun people” narratives about what is lethal for hunting. Make no mistake, this load will kill deer or pig size game. For a half hour after a well placed shot, do as @Varminterror suggests. And then go and collect your game.

 

[joneb]

The purpose of the thread is to present a slow, hardcast 180 grain blunt nose 38 caliber slug that any handloader can make, and just about everyone can comfortably shoot.

I get it, but how is the line drawn between what is effective and what is not? Killing things is never comfortable.

 

[GeoDudeFlorida]

Agree.

The purpose of the thread is to present a slow, hardcast 180 grain blunt nose 38 caliber slug that any handloader can make, and just about everyone can comfortably shoot.

The purpose of the poll and follow on discussions is about challenging “gun people” narratives about what is lethal for hunting. Make no mistake, this load will kill deer or pig size game. For a half hour after a well placed shot, do as @Varminterror suggests. And then go and collect your game.

That’s why I voted the way I did and explained the reasoning. At distances measured in feet a well placed .357Mag WFN does put a Whitetail down and in short order. When I was a teenager I only hunted with a 4-5/8” Blackhawk .357 and a Speer 158gr JHP over 8gr of Unique. It’s not a load for shooting at long ranges but in its range it is very effective. Dense brush requires patience to hunt and willingness to let a bad shot walk.

 

[41 Mag]

When I started hunting with a handgun it brought a huge dose of humble to my experiences. Fist off with open sights one just don't fall into the accuracy that you have in your mind. From a rest tiny groups at 25yds go to OMG I missed the whole target at 50 standing free hand. Then throw in some adrenaline some deep breathing and it all goes to pot.

I practiced for about a year before actually getting into a mindset that I was good enough to be ethical at the distances I had planned ro hunt. The hardest part was judging those distances in the field, and figuring out how to hold a thick bladed front sight where I wanted to hit. Most time that caused me to hold rather than shoot.

Once I got into it deeper and was more comfortable with my range judging it clicked and I was good to go. That said, I've learned a ton since then on what a handgun will do even at extended ranges. They will never equal the ability and power from a rifle, but can and will put game on the ground with a well placed shot and usually heavy for caliber bullets.