Harrassed by the cops while eating lunch

[Bill Hook]

I'm sitting in the parking lot of an old unoccupied utilities office, around 2PM, adjacent to the McD's, eating my salad (Atkins plan), when I notice a cop pull up behind me. I've got the windows down, and am listening to talk radio with the salad on my lap and McD's less than 100 yards away and about 2 blocks from city hall, in plain sight from the street. I drive a fairly new Japanese near-luxury marque that would fit in in this upper-middle class 'burb.

The cop sits there for a minute, then gets out and asks me what I'm doing (uh, eating ) and then he tells me that all kinds of things occur in parking lots of abandoned buildings (With a salad? Right down the street from city hall and within 30 ft of a residential street and within 100 yds of one of the busiest secondary roads in the state? ). He asks for ID and wastes 5 minutes or so of my time running my ID on some ignorant fishing expedition when any other half-wit would've connected the dots (salad, McDonald's, lunch, empty parking lot nearby, nice day).

What are my rights to refuse this request for ID (while not operating a vehicle on a public street) and how should I make my displeasure known to the PD brass and City Hall? I feel I should've been left unmolested after the cop made his presence known and he saw what I was doing wasn't a crime (yet ).

 

[Devonai]

2pm and in plain view of the street? This encounter stinks. However, I think the only action warranted is a polite but strongly-worded letter to the chief of police. Make yourself a copy, date it, and mail it to yourself. Then if this same officer bothers you again for no apparent reason, you can establish a pattern.

My first question to the officer would have been, "is this private property?" If the answer is yes, then my response is to say, "from now on I'll find somewhere else to eat lunch." If the answer is no, then I say "with all due respect, officer, I have a right to park here, unless there's a local ordinance I'm unaware of." Let him run my info. He still can't make me leave.

 

[Jeff White]

Bill,
You're not going to like hearing this, but the officer was just doing some routine police work. You could have been doing any number of things sitting there eating your salad. You coud have been casing a nearby business, you could have been waiting for someone to meet you for a drug transaction. The officer didn't know you, didn't know the car. Is it common for people to sit there and eat their lunch? Perhaps someone saw you sitting there and phoned in a report of a suspicious vehicle?

At any rate, the officer felt that you sitting there eating lunch was an unusual enough event to warrant seeing just who was sitting there. It doesn't sound like he was abusive to you and once he discovered that you weren't wanted or had a criminal history he left.

The Supreme Court has ruled that occupants of a vehicle have to identify themselves. There are also state laws in most states on this. The public/ private property issue you may need to check with an attorney about.

Think about it this way; Would you be just as upset if you heard of an armed robbery or mass shooting in the area and when the suspect was caught it came out that a cruiser had pulled through the parking lot and ignored him, while he was sitting their waiting for the right time to make his move?

Police work is a balance...It's a hard job. I'm sorry you felt violated. But the officer doesn't know what who you are and what you're up to unless he checks.

Jeff

 

[Pilgrim]

I suppose the best way to handle this if you think the officer is just fishing for something to build his statistics on is comply with his request, and when he is finished ask him to call his supervisor. When his supervisor arrives ask the officer in front of the supervisor just what crime he suspected you of committing or was about to commit that required him to interrupt your lunch.

If you wait to write the letter, he can make up all kinds of reasons why he stopped you. By calling the supervisor, the supervisor is very aware of the conditions and circumstances "causing" the officer to stop you from what you are doing and run your ID. Then again, the supervisor may have the same mindset as the officer which takes you back to your original problem. They may then be more motivated to screw around and see if they can find something they can make stick, like "contempt of cop."

Your other option is to wait for the chief or one of his command staff to attend a kumbayah session with neighborhood watch and ambush him with the same question.

Pilgrim

 

[Wildalaska]

With a salad? Right down the street from city hall and within 30 ft of a residential street and within 100 yds of one of the busiest secondary roads in the state?

Yep, crime occurs under those circs....you talked, you IDd, he left...

I think you should save the complaints for something real other than good, thorough police work...

WildtoprotectandserveAlaska

 

[Devonai]

The others have made me reconsider my response. On second thought I wouldn't complain unless the officer was unprofessional in manner. It doesn't sound like he was. I did some P.I. work awhile back, and occasionally I would be approached by a police officer while on surveillance. They were always very professional and courteous. Of course, we always logged in with the department before doing surveillance operations, so as soon as I identified myself the encounter would end.

 

[TheeBadOne]

They can't win

Sit in a coffee shop for a cup and they're lazy no good wastes of tax payer money. Do some good pro-active leg work and they're heavy handed thugs with bad attitudes...

 

[c_yeager]

If thats the worse encounter you've ever had with law enforcement then i woudl consider you to be a lucky person. Really you dont have much to complain about.

 

[Coronach]

Wow. Are you sure that I'm not the one who "harassed" you?

I do that all the time. Every day.

Lets see, in my area, we have a parking lot that has a lot of car break ins. If I see someone sitting in a car for an extended period of time, I'm either going to hang back and watch them, or I'm going to approach them and try to see who they are and what they're doing.

Oh, they're eating their lunch?

Ok...you don't think that the thieves have a ready-made story, complete with props, for why they are where they are and why they're doing what they're doing? Of course they do. And while the bad thieves stick out, the good ones blend in.

So what we try to do is talk to the person, request ID, and if it is offered, just do a check for wants/warrants and make a mental note of the name and the face. Such things come in handy later on, either in the form of "That guy? Naw, he eats his lunch here about three times a week" or "White guy with brown hair, huh? Green ford escort? 6', 170 lbs, mid thirties? Really? You're /sure/ you saw him smash the window and take the briefcase? Ok...ma'am...if we showed you a photo line up, do you think you could ID this guy?"

As to the right to refuse to provide ID, it depends heavily on the circumstances. A good rule of thumb, however, is this...if you're being charged with a crime (including traffic violations), you are required to provide ID. If you're not, you are not. However, cutting right to the chase, you're going to attract a lot more unwanted attention by refusing the ID than by providing it. Plus, you're delaying the officer from his task, which is catching bad guys.

Also, less politely, isn't this the same Internet BB that screeched bloody murder when we found out that the police had actually had contact with the DC 'Snipers' near one of the shootings? I guess we want the police to be hardnosed and aggressive when they stop the right car, but we don't even want to have to politely converse with them when they stop the wrong one.

Mike

 

[El Tejon]

Most states have statutes that Jeff White described. Further, what you described sounds like a copper with his radar turned on.

If you are unhappy you can always make a gripe to the cop shoppe or a letter to the editor. However, it appears the copper was just doing what they always do--"what's all this then?"

I had something similar happen to me couple of weeks ago. I was practicing my boxing at lunch downtown. While I was running through some stretching and doing some form work, a young kid (the po-po on the beat are getting younger to me) approaches me (with confused look, apparently he had never seen mantis boxing before).

"Sir, (yeah, I know, he called ME "sir"--I immediately looked around for my dad) how are you today? Anything wrong?"

Apparently he was driving by and saw me exercising and thought something was wrong. Sez a lot for our culture, huh?

I didn't have my wallet, but identified myself orally and gave him my card. (Always carry cards). He started to call to see if I was (it's either Signal 40 or 80--I can never remember the "wanted on warrant" status), but a Sgt. I knew from when I was a LEO drove by and stopped and waved ("Hey, El Tejon, how's it going").

He put his uniform mic down, smiled and turned on his heel. I told him if he wanted to study some boxing, let me know, free lessons to cops. He laughed and got back in his scout car.

Did he have "reasonable suspicion" to stop me? Arguably no. But what am I going to do--run away? Fight? Be snotty? No, Eddie Haskell up and settle the legal issues later.

The advice I was give to CCWers or anyone else when dealing with cops, just be cool. You're not doing anything wrong. Cops, out of self-defence, have heightened sensitivity to fear or panic. Relax and they will (usually) relax.

 

[clubsoda22]

Whatever, if i had nowhere to be, he can run my ID while i finish my salad.

Next time try eating your lunch in an abandoned parking lot wearing a black balacava.

 

[DorGunR]

Must be something wrong with me.............I don't see a problem with what the cop did.

 

[FPrice]

If the officer is courteous and professional, thank him for doing his job. While I am not an LEO, nor do I play one on the TV or the Internet, I think part of an LEO's job is to be aware of the surroundings and notice things. All sorts of things.

A couple of questions pop into mind. Does your city possibly have a drug problem? Not all druggies look like dirtbags and drive beater vehicles.

Does your city have a problem with parking lot or other open/secluded area muggings? Maybe he was just trying to insure your safety.

My advice is to not look for problems where none exist. I would much rather have a cop stop me or check up on me in a nice courteous manner than have something happen to me. Accept that it was most likely a dedicated LEO trying to insure that nothing bad was going on and let it go.

 

[Bill Hook]

He may have been doing nothing "wrong," but I see that it it is only a baby step from this to having to possess internal passports and keep them on your person at all times. Nothing like having LE treat you like a suspected criminal in every encounter. Nothing like being treated like a suspected criminal to errode support for LE.

BTW, from some of the responses I see, it sounds as if many would support racial profiling. Black person (not me) in a nearly all-white neighborhood would be cause for suspicion, no?

Additionally, he didn't even find my evil gun (suspicious) or ask about CCW.

 

[TheeBadOne]

Major point

The greater public really doesn't have a clue about Police work in general. Many threads of this nature have been posted on the internet with the following conclusion; "But I wasn't doing anything wrong! &&^%#$@ Cops!" To that way of thinking Cops need not be out patroling in squad cars but can just sit at the station (like Firemen) until something happens, then can respond after the fact. Though this may be what they do in a large number of cases (arriving after the fact), they are also charged with crime prevention. This does include on checking suspicious persons or vehicles. When someone complains it's because they don't understand that Police conduct "investigations" daily, by investigating anything suspicious. How do they determine what is suspicious? Training and experiance. As already mentioned, some places will attract more attention then others. There is a local movie theater that it's not a good idea to hang out in the parking lot of if you don't want to be checked out by the cops. It's in a nice area, very clean, and new. However, it's the target of a lot of thefts from car break ins. As a result (and at the request of the theater owners) the Cops patrol the area often and check on anyone just sitting in a car or not walking toward the entrance. Most of those people checked on "weren't doing anything wrong"! but did indeed warrant checking out.
Remember, that's our tax dollars out there working, be glad they are doing their job (checking out your neighborhood/bussiness areas to keep them safe, and to prevent crimes).

All the best

TBO

 

[El Tejon]

Bill, hmmm, don't know. Because a copper wants to know who you are? I think that's a large gap between the traffic code and "internal passports".

As to the 'attitude" of the coppers, part of it is that they are human just like you and me. They have good days, bad days, their wives yell at them, their kids misbehave, their partner had chilli for lunch, the Eltee mentioned the coffee stain on his shirt again, they had to work all night and then sit through a deposition, etc. They may have 'tudes, part of being human.

Of course, they treat people as criminals or potential criminals. The police exist to gather evidence of crimes for the prosecutor, not to debrief the innocent. They are well within beer breath range of criminals who lie to them everyday. They get jaded.

All the more reason to Eddie Haskell up.

BTW, being of any certain racial background is not "reasonable suspicion." However, sake of argument, a non-WASP copper stops me for being The Man. I behave in the same way--Eddie Haskell up. I don't run, I don't fight, I don't run my mouth and hurt my §1983 case later.

He arrests me for WWW (walking while being a whitey). O.K., I bond out and the fun in administrative and civil court begins.

 

[Bill Hook]

I think that's a large gap between the traffic code and "internal passports".

How does sitting in your car, off a public thoroughfare have anything to do with traffic codes? I had to produce ID, which isn't required to sit, last I heard. Were I on a public street, I'd have less of a problem because said officer could make a stop on the pretense of a traffic violation.

BTW, since cops treat those they meet as criminals and potential criminals, would it be wrong, as a citizen (if that word has any meaning left), to treat cops as JBTs and potential JBTs?

 

[Mike Irwin]

Should have come out of the car, guns blazing and shot him multiple times for having the audacity to interrupt your salad...

You're on private property of a building that isn't occupied. Trespassing.

You weren't harassed.

You were introduced to what a police officer does ever day on the job.

It's funny how many people hork on cops no matter what they do --- lazy donut eating slugs or jackbooted Nazi bastard thugs...

Relax, Bill, and be glad that the cop showed the propensity to stop... just in case the next time you're sitting in a pool of your own blood from the shank that some thug rammed into your neck in an effort to steal your wallet while you were eating lunch...

Next time, if you don't want to feel that you're being harassed, go to the park.

 

[Bill Hook]

You're on private property of a building that isn't occupied. Trespassing.

Not posted.

Relax, Bill, and be glad that the cop showed the propensity to stop... just in case the next time you're sitting in a pool of your own blood from the shank that some thug rammed into your neck in an effort to steal your wallet while you were eating lunch...

Uh, that's why I CCW. I seriously doubt the cops will be there to stop the thug you mentioned, only to take pictures and file a report.

 

[tcdrennen]

Over 20 years ago now I was going through a bad patch and literally living in my van for about 3 months. One evening, I was eating my dinner (from the fast food place about 50 yards away) and reading under the street lamp in a large shopping center/strip mall. Pleasant evening, windows rolled down, minding my own business.

PD rolls up (3 cars!) and the Sgt. asks me what I'm doing, then please step out, mind if we take a look. Me: eating & reading under this nice light, sure, okay. They poke around a bit, I ask what's up - turns out Ii'd been there over an hour (good book!), the center was closing down around me, and the manager of a diamond store about 75 yards away got nervous about the strange person sitting in the van for so long.

Everyone is relaxed and polite, they basically tell me it's time to move along, g'night, everyone leaves.

Was I doing anything to be "harrassed" over? No. Were the cops doing their job properly? Absolutely.

As to mid day in the lot of an abandoned building - you could be casing something, surveilling activity for a future break in plan, whatever. "Whatcha doing?" is reasonable proactive police work, and running your info is probably mandatory (or should be) - that way if anything DOES go down, they have eliminated YOU as a suspect (Witness - 'there was a strange car in that lot over there just before the bank robbery!' Police - 'not him, he was just eating his lunch and checked clean' AND/OR 'hey, that guy might have seen something, let's give him a call.'

Relax and enjoy it - your tax dollars at work.

 

[El Tejon]

Bill, depending on state law, one may be required to possess a driver's license while in control of the vehicle. Check local listings. Regardless one is also required to identify himself or herself, when stopped (may be in the traffice code or may be somewhere else).

O.K., I tell the po-po who I am. Not withstanding what the courts hold, to me it seems like reasonable search and seizure. I'm out in public, it's not like he kicked in my office or home door.

"BOOM! O.k., who are you?" "Well, officer my name is right there on the office door that you kicked in."

 

[12-34hom]

I had a situation like this happen to me.

Gent sitting in a closed business [gas station], i made a couple of passes by him, decided to check his status.

Got to the window of the truck - asked him whats going on?

"Just sitting here looking at the stars"

I ask for ID & proof of insurance for his vehicle.

His reply = What do you need that for??

I reply, "Checking the status of your drivers license sir" & to find out if there are any warrants for your arrest outstanding.

At that point, he goes off the deep end....

The basic tirade, harrasment, you don't need to know, your abusing my rights, etc...

After a few minutes of this, he grudingly gives me his drivers license.

He checks out ok, i tell him have a nice evening.

I find out later he calls my boss, he gets told "just doing his job" - not good enough for him - calls the Sheriffs office - gets told the same thing...

People like him and you Bill Hook, are just part of the job.... rather amusing.

"Have a nice day sir"...



12-34hom.

 

[Bill Hook]

As to mid day in the lot of an abandoned building - you could be casing something, surveilling activity for a future break in plan, whatever. "Whatcha doing?" is reasonable proactive police work, and running your info is probably mandatory (or should be) - that way if anything DOES go down, they have eliminated YOU as a suspect (Witness - 'there was a strange car in that lot over there just before the bank robbery!' Police - 'not him, he was just eating his lunch and checked clean' AND/OR 'hey, that guy might have seen something, let's give him a call.'

You know, I don't wish to give up any of my rights so that the collective can feel a little safer. Furthermore, I can't think of anything nearby that was worth stealing or breaking into. There's a deli across the street and a strip mall a hundred yards or so behind that - no jewelery store.

Additionally, the officer was apparent behind me (I didn't run) and he could run the plates if he had suspicions. If the car is clean, why worry too much about the occupant? If the vehicle is seen again, after a crime, then you have a lead. Of course, I could use a different car, but it is just as likely that I would not be a direct participant in the crime, but only acting as surveillance. The greatest likelihood, however, is that I was minding my own business.

 

[TheeBadOne]

The best "Badge Heavy" complaint I heard of was when a big local 6'4" 265 lb loud mouth went to complain about a speeding ticket he was given.

Claim: "He violated my civil rights"!!!!!!!

Substance of said claim: "He called me by my first name"!!!

OMG

 

[Bill Hook]

People like him and you Bill Hook, are just part of the job.... rather amusing.

You mean another innocent citizen you harassed to no useful end? You sound easily amused.

I didn't complain to the cop (why argue with a flunky, when it's his boss that matters), but I just may complain to the brass and city hall. I might also write a few businesses to let them know why I won't be spending my money there anymore.