Hatsan .25 cal @ 700 FPS

[rodwha]

I’ve been looking over the Hatsan rifles that weigh a more normal weight (6-7 lbs) and seeing the low velocities for lead pellets I’ve wondered if the .25 cal, though claims to hit a little harder, isn’t an extremely short range caliber and not worth considering over the .22 cal for small game critters.

I lean towards a .22 anyway because of the variety of pellet options (domes and wadcutters for me) and the cheaper cost, but having such a low velocity makes me think the .22 would have much superior range. Should I rethink the .25 cal? The rifle is half off…

 

[rodwha]

I’ve seen how with some air rifles aftermarket parts can improve the performance. Might there be something that can be done with the Hatsan gas piston system?

 

[Alex Clayton]

I have one of their select fire rifles in .30. It is a TON of fun. If you want to get into this it may be worth going with one of the PCP style. They make shooting a LOT more fun and can be had in many calibers. All the way from something for fun, to something you can hunt with.

 

[Armored farmer]

I sure like my Hatsun 95 in 22 cal.
It's really accurate. I take that and ammo availability over the ever-so-slightly larger caliber.

 

[rodwha]

I have one of their select fire rifles in .30. It is a TON of fun. If you want to get into this it may be worth going with one of the PCP style. They make shooting a LOT more fun and can be had in many calibers. All the way from something for fun, to something you can hunt with.

I actually really prefer the idea of a simple break-open design. I’d much prefer to have the heavier powered stuff but not at a 10 lb rifle so this will do I suppose.

 

[3Crows]

A .25 in a break barrel action is probably not a good combination. I once had a .25 break open. it was difficult to cock, kicked like a mule in the wrong direction, broke even air gun rated scopes and was not accurate. PCP and .25 is superb but a break barrel I would suggest not.

 

[Alex Clayton]

A .25 in a break barrel action is probably not a good combination. I once had a .25 break open. it was difficult to cock, kicked like a mule in the wrong direction, broke even air gun rated scopes and was not accurate. PCP and .25 is superb but a break barrel I would suggest not.

Yep, those high power springers are powerful but the old axiom of equal and opposite really rears its head. All that power from that massive spring has to go somewhere. I was LONG hesitant to try a PCP but as soon as I finally shot one? WOW, it was one of those why did I wait so long things

 

[3Crows]

In an appropriate rifle, the difference between .22 and .25 is not ever so slight. The heaviest commonly available .22 pellet is the JSB at 18.34 grains. The heaviest commonly available .25 pellets is the JSB 34 grains. Many agree that diablo pellets are most accurate at velocities of around 840 to 940 fps. So, let's take that maximum velocity of 940 fps and find the energy. A .22 caliber 18.4 grain pellet at 940 fps is 36 fpe. A .25 caliber 34 grain pellet at 940 fps is 67 fpe! That is 86% difference. That is not slight, that is a lot. And the hole going in and out is significantly bigger for a .25 than a .22. A H&N Barracuda Hunter at 28 grains and 940 fps or slightly more, blew through and kept on going:



For many PCP rifles the limiting factor is the maximum stable pellet speeds, not power. My rifles can easily zing those 34 grain pellets out at over 1,000 fps but they corkscrew and accuracy degrades significantly. Which is where slugs and slug barrels come in I suppose.

 

[rodwha]

In an appropriate rifle, the difference between .22 and .25 is not ever so slight. The heaviest commonly available .22 pellet is the JSB at 18.34 grains. The heaviest commonly available .25 pellets is the JSB 34 grains. Many agree that diablo pellets are most accurate at velocities of around 840 to 940 fps. So, let's take that maximum velocity of 940 fps and find the energy. A .22 caliber 18.4 grain pellet at 940 fps is 36 fpe. A .25 caliber 34 grain pellet at 940 fps is 67 fpe! That is 86% difference. That is not slight, that is a lot. And the hole going in and out is significantly bigger for a .25 than a .22. A H&N Barracuda Hunter at 28 grains and 940 fps or slightly more, blew through and kept on going:



For many PCP rifles the limiting factor is the maximum stable pellet speeds, not power. My rifles can easily zing those 34 grain pellets out at over 1,000 fps but they corkscrew and accuracy degrades significantly. Which is where slugs and slug barrels come in I suppose.

The models I'm looking at show 800 fps max with a lead .22 pellet with 21 ft/lbs vs 700 fps max with a lead .25 pellet with 24 ft/lbs. Looking up their lead pellets it shows the .22 Vortex Strike as 17.75 grns and the .25 as 24.7 grns. Comparing the .22 and .25 at the same velocity isn’t an apples to apples comparison as none of these springers can produce the same velocities like that.

I’m not interested in a PCP. I like the idea of needing nothing but pellets. I’d prefer this springer be more powerful but I don’t want a 10 lb rifle to get it.

 

[3Crows]

The models I'm looking at show 800 fps max with a lead .22 pellet with 21 ft/lbs vs 700 fps max with a lead .25 pellet with 24 ft/lbs. Looking up their lead pellets it shows the .22 Vortex Strike as 17.75 grns and the .25 as 24.7 grns. Comparing the .22 and .25 at the same velocity isn’t an apples to apples comparison as none of these springers can produce the same velocities like that.

I’m not interested in a PCP. I like the idea of needing nothing but pellets. I’d prefer this springer be more powerful but I don’t want a 10 lb rifle to get it.

Yes, a spring or nitrogen piston rifle cannot make the power of a PCP to push to respective velocity limits, you are correct and in such case I would favor the .22. If I ever buy another spring/nitrogen spring rifle it will be a side lever like the TX200 in a .22 or that Diana 48 also in a .22. I have just not found much joy in break open rifles for accuracy. The barrels just do not return consistently to the same place and the scope mounted on the spring housing is therefore not true to the barrel which often has droop. Maybe a 15 yard rifle or 20 yards. The side levers do not have that issue. The TX200 and Diana 48 are still heavy and large rifles but there is the promise of more accuracy, I am told.

 

[rodwha]

Side lever? I am ignorant to what this is. As a child in the 80’s I grew up with a Crosman pump, but then in the 2000’s my old boss bought a refurbished .22 Chinese springer after having used a .177 version and noted how the grackles sure did topple with authority. Anyhow, we’d shoot his along with his recurve bows in the shop opening one bay door to get a full 25 yds. Since then I’ve wanted one.

As long as I can get squirrel/rabbit head accuracy at 25 yds I guess I’d be happy enough.

 

[Spats McGee]

I can't answer the caliber question, but I bought one of these about a year ago. I have been shooting a lot of .22LR, which of course means less trigger time with the Hatsan. That said, I'm very happy with it.

 

[Alex Clayton]

Side lever? I am ignorant to what this is. As a child in the 80’s I grew up with a Crosman pump, but then in the 2000’s my old boss bought a refurbished .22 Chinese springer after having used a .177 version and noted how the grackles sure did topple with authority. Anyhow, we’d shoot his along with his recurve bows in the shop opening one bay door to get a full 25 yds. Since then I’ve wanted one.

As long as I can get squirrel/rabbit head accuracy at 25 yds I guess I’d be happy enough.

Still spring piston but, instead of the barrel going down to cock the spring they have a side lever that does the same thing. As with all springer's same down sides. The real nice ones its a good amount of force needed to cock that spring and the recoil of that spring letting go will eat scopes that are not made to take that beating. There will of course always be those who stay with the spring piston this is why so many are still made. When I was a kid with one of the Crossman or Benjamin pump ups they were making some of the single cock springer's that were VERY powerful compared to what we had. Problem was back then they were far more than a nice .22 rifle cost so few of us ever even saw one. When the PCP market got going it is normally just a matter of someone finally trying one to be sold on them. This is why so many of them are made now. Hatsan is one of the better known makers. When I bought the select fire model I have they had been out for years and I had no idea they were there. After I watched them being shot I just "HAD" to have one of course
It was more expensive than most firearms I own but, now days I can afford that so it was fun as all hell. The excuse I used for me was to kill Coyotes that come here to hunt. They are quiet enough for me to use on the property here and can humanly kill one. The PCP's now come in a WIDE array. Stuff that is very affordable and fun as hell, all the way up to stuff that can be used to hunt larger game. All of them are a LOT of damn fun!

 

[rodwha]

I can't answer the caliber question, but I bought one of these about a year ago. I have been shooting a lot of .22LR, which of course means less trigger time with the Hatsan. That said, I'm very happy with it.

That’s the one reason I was contemplating a .25, a nice close out deal.

I lean more towards the .22 because the pellets are much cheaper and there’s a whole plethora of pellet (lead) options.

I like the idea of something powerful enough to handle pests like raccoons and possums but see these fall under the recommended power output but wondered if the .25 with a light-medium weight pellet to the thinking cap at extremely close range (>5 yds) might be just enough. I doubt with such a low velocity using a lighter weight pellet would do well with any of the heavier end pellets, which makes me wonder how a heavy .22 pellet vs a lighter .25 pellet with a few more ft/lbs would compare. Sectional density tends to be a big factor for penetration but at some point the velocity will drop and negate that advantage.

I just really think I’d be overall much happier with the .22 with these lower velocity rifles. But that price for the .25 and the allure of a little more oomph, practical or not… And all things being equal I tend to like bigger.

 

[Alex Clayton]

That’s the one reason I was contemplating a .25, a nice close out deal.

I lean more towards the .22 because the pellets are much cheaper and there’s a whole plethora of pellet (lead) options.

I like the idea of something powerful enough to handle pests like raccoons and possums but see these fall under the recommended power output but wondered if the .25 with a light-medium weight pellet to the thinking cap at extremely close range (>5 yds) might be just enough. I doubt with such a low velocity using a lighter weight pellet would do well with any of the heavier end pellets, which makes me wonder how a heavy .22 pellet vs a lighter .25 pellet with a few more ft/lbs would compare. Sectional density tends to be a big factor for penetration but at some point the velocity will drop and negate that advantage.

I just really think I’d be overall much happier with the .22 with these lower velocity rifles. But that price for the .25 and the allure of a little more oomph, practical or not… And all things being equal I tend to like bigger.

That is one "downside" to PCP's. They are easy to run a lot of lead though
Being they are a lot of fun and can shoot a lot faster. The select fire I bought is .30 so ammo is easy to spend a good amount on. Did buy a trap to save the lead. When I get enough to be worth taking to a scrap yard I can get some of the cost back. For just plain cheap fun the .177 and .22 are some cheap fun and they can both dispatch small pests of course. Have a Semi Auto .22 cal imported by Sig that is a lot of cheap fun. Uses 30 round mags so lots of cheap fun. Before I bought the .30 I did use it twice on the Coyote's here when one got too close to the house. It of course can't kill but it sure as hell taught them to stay clear of the home and my animals. So it worked great for that. They still come here to hunt but they stay away from my critters so we live in peace for now.

 

[rodwha]

Still spring piston but, instead of the barrel going down to cock the spring they have a side lever that does the same thing. As with all springer's same down sides. The real nice ones its a good amount of force needed to cock that spring and the recoil of that spring letting go will eat scopes that are not made to take that beating. There will of course always be those who stay with the spring piston this is why so many are still made. When I was a kid with one of the Crossman or Benjamin pump ups they were making some of the single cock springer's that were VERY powerful compared to what we had. Problem was back then they were far more than a nice .22 rifle cost so few of us ever even saw one. When the PCP market got going it is normally just a matter of someone finally trying one to be sold on them. This is why so many of them are made now. Hatsan is one of the better known makers. When I bought the select fire model I have they had been out for years and I had no idea they were there. After I watched them being shot I just "HAD" to have one of course
It was more expensive than most firearms I own but, now days I can afford that so it was fun as all hell. The excuse I used for me was to kill Coyotes that come here to hunt. They are quiet enough for me to use on the property here and can humanly kill one. The PCP's now come in a WIDE array. Stuff that is very affordable and fun as hell, all the way up to stuff that can be used to hunt larger game. All of them are a LOT of damn fun!

I don’t claim to know a whole lot about air rifles, but it seems the consensus is a gas piston is much better and lasts longer.

The Hatsans I’ve looked at mostly seem to claim to have some sort of recoil absorbing component. Not sure how well they work with the scopes they provide. I assume they aren’t exactly high quality but I figured good enough. I’m clueless there except for Hatsan being a better manufacturer of more entry level air guns. And they’re a NATO partner for whatever they’re worth, better than Chinese for sure.

 

[Alex Clayton]

I don’t claim to know a whole lot about air rifles, but it seems the consensus is a gas piston is much better and lasts longer.

The Hatsans I’ve looked at mostly seem to claim to have some sort of recoil absorbing component. Not sure how well they work with the scopes they provide. I assume they aren’t exactly high quality but I figured good enough. I’m clueless there except for Hatsan being a better manufacturer of more entry level air guns. And they’re a NATO partner for whatever they’re worth, better than Chinese for sure.

Its been a marked improvement over the tech that had been around longer than I have. They will still kill a standard scope. For anyone buying one that wants an optic make sure they get one made for these rifles. The PCP's you can put any kind of optic on but the springer's need to have one made to take that beating they give them. The nice one can turn in some impressive accuracy. Just like most any gun no two seem to have the same taste so anyone who buys one should buy several flavors of ammo. That way they can find out what theirs likes best.

 

[rodwha]

So should I expect the scopes sold with the Hatsan gas piston rifles to degrade rather quickly?

I’ve read that these air rifles are much like muzzleloaders that can be much like that. Strange that both of my percussion revolvers shoot everything I’ve fed them equally well once I found their more accurate powder charges. Anyhow this seems like another great reason to go with a .22 as there’s just not many options, especially lighter weight lead pellets like I’d need with this low velocity rifle. Dang, but that price, and numbers don’t lie, the .25 has more oomph. I do like oomph.

 

[3Crows]

In my experiences with more powerful spring guns, heavier pellets result in a softer shooting cycle. The cup (ram) does not slam into the end of the compression chamber as violently.

I love .25 caliber in PCP, not sure that is a fit for a spring/nitro type break open rifle.

Yes, magnum type spring/nitro rifles will beat the Hades out of scopes, even supposed air rifle rated scopes. Just keeping the scope from walking in the rings is a problem. Hold your mouth right, artillery hold, blah, blah, they are accurate enough for 15 yards.

If you insist on the punishment of a spring rifle, really, forgo the break open stuff and get the TX200, I think it comes in a carbine model, it or the Diana does. And there is this fellow also:

Weihrauch HW97K Thumbhole Stainless Look .22: Airguns of Arizona

 

[Alex Clayton]

So should I expect the scopes sold with the Hatsan gas piston rifles to degrade rather quickly?

I’ve read that these air rifles are much like muzzleloaders that can be much like that. Strange that both of my percussion revolvers shoot everything I’ve fed them equally well once I found their more accurate powder charges. Anyhow this seems like another great reason to go with a .22 as there’s just not many options, especially lighter weight lead pellets like I’d need with this low velocity rifle. Dang, but that price, and numbers don’t lie, the .25 has more oomph. I do like oomph.

If they are selling you the scope with the rifle? Then it "should be" one of the ones made for the punishment these put out. Somewhere in the info it should say its made for these kind of guns. If not sure I would just give them a shout and ask if you are buying direct from them?

 

[rodwha]

In my experiences with more powerful spring guns, heavier pellets result in a softer shooting cycle. The cup (ram) does not slam into the end of the compression chamber as violently.

I love .25 caliber in PCP, not sure that is a fit for a spring/nitro type break open rifle.

Yes, magnum type spring/nitro rifles will beat the Hades out of scopes, even supposed air rifle rated scopes. Just keeping the scope from walking in the rings is a problem. Hold your mouth right, artillery hold, blah, blah, they are accurate enough for 15 yards.

If you insist on the punishment of a spring rifle, really, forgo the break open stuff and get the TX200, I think it comes in a carbine model, it or the Diana does. And there is this fellow also:

Weihrauch HW97K Thumbhole Stainless Look .22: Airguns of Arizona

I have too many hobbies that are each demanding of the fun money funding so dropping that many coins on a pellet rifle is a bit much for me.

 

[3Crows]

I have too many hobbies that are each demanding of the fun money funding so dropping that many coins on a pellet rifle is a bit much for me.

Me too, UW photography ($$$$), scuba diving, flying, motorcycles, guns and hunting, hiking, kayaking, cycling, triathlon, the list goes on.



Red Sea, a couple of months ago:



But I so disdain break barrel rifles I manage not to own one any longer. I gave this creature away to a new home, it is a Remington but is the same rifle workings as the Crosman Nitro Trail. It made near 30 fpe in the .25 caliber and destroyed every scope I put on it and in the end needed four rings to hold the scope tight enough it would not walk. I nearly needed a winch to cock it:



Here are 15 yard targets:



Notice the vertical stringing in photo above, that is because the scope would move despite all efforts. Here are my two best PCPs, a custom super light and side lever Benjamin Marauder .25 (60 fpe) and a Gamo (BSA-UK) Urban . 22 (28 fpe) at 40 yards. The Urban target, that is a full 10 pellets, the Marauder targets are five pellets each:



I am going to sell a kidney or maybe my Jeep to fund a FX Impact or a Western Sidewinder or maybe go to Thailand next, not sure which is more pressing. Or maybe just go back to work as retirement is not all that after all.

 

[d2wing]

Being cheap and simple, I also have a Hatsan 95 in .22 cal. It seems to work just fine. reasonably priced, accurate and easy to use.

 

[wesmonster]

If you're only using one caliber, .22 is a workhorse, lots of choices.
But Hatsan makes nice .25s that pack a punch. I've noticed my Hatsan .22 Speedfire isn't any easier to cock than my Hatsan 95 springer. And for those of us with fumble fingers or have to use gloves, .25 pellets are easier to manage.
Hatsan also rates their guns much closer to real world numbers vs other manufacturers who often use the lightest pellet available.

 

[jmohme]

In an appropriate rifle, the difference between .22 and .25 is not ever so slight. The heaviest commonly available .22 pellet is the JSB at 18.34 grains. The heaviest commonly available .25 pellets is the JSB 34 grains. Many agree that diablo pellets are most accurate at velocities of around 840 to 940 fps. So, let's take that maximum velocity of 940 fps and find the energy. A .22 caliber 18.4 grain pellet at 940 fps is 36 fpe. A .25 caliber 34 grain pellet at 940 fps is 67 fpe! That is 86% difference. That is not slight, that is a lot. And the hole going in and out is significantly bigger for a .25 than a .22. A H&N Barracuda Hunter at 28 grains and 940 fps or slightly more, blew through and kept on going:



For many PCP rifles the limiting factor is the maximum stable pellet speeds, not power. My rifles can easily zing those 34 grain pellets out at over 1,000 fps but they corkscrew and accuracy degrades significantly. Which is where slugs and slug barrels come in I suppose.

And then look at the same .25 PCP shooting slugs. Up the FPS to 1100 shooting 41 grain slugs for 110 fps.
.22 is cheaper to shoot, but I find my .25s much more versatile.