Ragnar Danneskjold
Member
So you advised your wife to discharge a shotgun at a target she hasn't identified?
Have "Rails", run their course in handguns
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So you advised your wife to discharge a shotgun at a target she hasn't identified?
John Parker
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If the cops are sneaking through your house when they're responding to your call, then that department has serious training issues.
Averageman
Member
If they broke through a dog and three doors without a warning yes they need some training. I have never heard a LEO not clearly ID himself several times and loudly in any situation where a gun may be used.
This is Texas, we all have guns and are apt to defend ourselves. LEO's respect that and protect themselves accordingly.
The point is I sure didnt want her to clear a house with a baby in one arm and a handgun with a flashlight in the other. I wouldnt reccomend it for myself either. You can take the widescreen if you can get away before the LEO's get to the house. Afterall thats what the alarm is for.
I think a flashlight on my pistol is handy, but it wont make a big red "S" appear on my chest.
This is Texas, we all have guns and are apt to defend ourselves. LEO's respect that and protect themselves accordingly.
The point is I sure didnt want her to clear a house with a baby in one arm and a handgun with a flashlight in the other. I wouldnt reccomend it for myself either. You can take the widescreen if you can get away before the LEO's get to the house. Afterall thats what the alarm is for.
I think a flashlight on my pistol is handy, but it wont make a big red "S" appear on my chest.
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Every time I read a thead like this, I say the same thing: which has already been said:
If you buy a pistol with a rail and you are absolutely, totally against using a weapon mounted light, you don't have to. Nobody is forcing you to. But if you later decide you were mistaken, you still have the option. If you buy a gun with no rail and later discover the advantages to a weapon mounted light: your only option is to buy a new gun.
It is all about options and versatility. One has it, the other doesn't.
And as always, train.
Go out with your chosen light and shoot with it. Practice doing mag changes. Practice doing malfunction drills. Practice opening doors.......................... All with the light. If you have a chance to shoot an IDPA match at night, do it. If you have the opportunity to take a formal training class conducted at night, do it.
Don't buy into the internet logic that this could never happen to me. Some people get a given senario in their mind and refuse to believe that anything else could possibly happen. They will give you responses like: I will never have to reload my pistol because of ____________. They will tell you they will never have a malfunction because of _____________. The will never need to use their hands for anything like opening door knobs because of _________. These people have never heard of Murphy. They never heard that the best plan never survives the first contact with the enemy.
For the guy talking about shotguns: have you ever tried to load a shotgun with a flashlight in your hand ? Oh, I forgot, you will never have to load your shotgun with a light in your hand because of ___________________.
I have two defensive type shotguns. Both have lights mounted on them.
Keep in mind that if you are using the weapon for home defense and DO need to use your hands, you probably won't have a pocket to stick the light in if you were sleeping when the situation goes down.
If you buy a pistol with a rail and you are absolutely, totally against using a weapon mounted light, you don't have to. Nobody is forcing you to. But if you later decide you were mistaken, you still have the option. If you buy a gun with no rail and later discover the advantages to a weapon mounted light: your only option is to buy a new gun.
It is all about options and versatility. One has it, the other doesn't.
And as always, train.
Go out with your chosen light and shoot with it. Practice doing mag changes. Practice doing malfunction drills. Practice opening doors.......................... All with the light. If you have a chance to shoot an IDPA match at night, do it. If you have the opportunity to take a formal training class conducted at night, do it.
Don't buy into the internet logic that this could never happen to me. Some people get a given senario in their mind and refuse to believe that anything else could possibly happen. They will give you responses like: I will never have to reload my pistol because of ____________. They will tell you they will never have a malfunction because of _____________. The will never need to use their hands for anything like opening door knobs because of _________. These people have never heard of Murphy. They never heard that the best plan never survives the first contact with the enemy.
For the guy talking about shotguns: have you ever tried to load a shotgun with a flashlight in your hand ? Oh, I forgot, you will never have to load your shotgun with a light in your hand because of ___________________.
I have two defensive type shotguns. Both have lights mounted on them.
Keep in mind that if you are using the weapon for home defense and DO need to use your hands, you probably won't have a pocket to stick the light in if you were sleeping when the situation goes down.
The devil's advocate says: When you have a light on a weapon and you are using that light to see, everything that you see has a loaded firearm being pointed at it. In some cases, that's great...in others...not so much. Everything is a catch 22 though. With a pump action shotgun, you need 2 hands to operate it properly. Not having a light means not being able to see your target clearly and puts you in the same type of situation. There is no right or wrong here. Everything about this situation is a give or take. To me it makes a lot more sense for hd than for ccw.
mustang_steve
Member
As far as weaponlights go....mounted to the pistol may be fine if you're wearing body armor....but for average joe who has an inch or so of bodyfat to protect himself, and maybe a bathrobe....I'd rather go with a separate flashlight.
As for the laser: Crimson Trace is making the need for a rail-mount laser obsolete, and there are now companies making guide-rod lasers as well. Why have a attachment when it can be integrated completely or close to?
I personally see them as more of a military/police suited technology as opposed to the average CCer/home defender.
As for the laser: Crimson Trace is making the need for a rail-mount laser obsolete, and there are now companies making guide-rod lasers as well. Why have a attachment when it can be integrated completely or close to?
I personally see them as more of a military/police suited technology as opposed to the average CCer/home defender.
chuckusaret
member
I really never gave the rails much thought other than to not hang a light on them. I have a XD40 sub compact with a Lasermax that does not use the rail, a S&W M&P 9MM with a Crimson Trace Grip Laser. I believe the rails are here to stay, they do sell a lot of Lights/Lasers that mount on the rails.
I don't think rails have run their course. There are many different and purposeful uses for rails on handguns. I do, however, think that holster manufacturers need to give us more options for light/ laser equipped weapons. I, for one, certainly can't afford the $230-330 crimson trace grips for all of my guns, and it would be nice to see some holsters catering to those who enjoy toys on their rails.
Averageman
Member
For the guy talking about shotguns: have you ever tried to load a shotgun with a flashlight in your hand ? Oh, I forgot, you will never have to load your shotgun with a light in your hand because of ___________________.
Not at all,...
I am saying, flashlights on weapons are handy, thinking they make you bullet proof and multiply your numbers by 3 is just wrong though. If you think that weapon, rail and flashlight will be all it takes to save you, well then the whole intent of the rail and flashlight or laser was lost on you.
They may have not run their course, but like any tool it has limitations that many people here wont acknowledge them. How many times have you read here, I have the weapon and the flashlight is mounted, now I will now clear my home..?
I am saying if you have an alarm and lights that come on when the alarm is tripped you are much better off than clearing your house with a Pistol or shotgun with a flashlight on a rail.
I dont have to load my shotgun,..it is loaded, as long as I stay put and the alarm and dog are busy, I have two doors between me and the bad guy I have time to rack a slide and take a better defencive position.
I dont need a flashlight when the alarm and lights come on. I will hide and wait for the alarm, dog and LEO's to do their jobs.
Being on the Defence rather than offence increases my odds of survival dramatically. The money spent on these things far surpasses the value of a light mounted on the weapon I choose to defend my home with.
If you need a weapon mounted flashlight professionally, good for you, get one and learn how to use it.
If you are the average homeowner, get a great alarm system, get a dog and get to know your Local LEO's. The money and time spent will increase your odds of survival.
If you would rather leave safety because you have a distorted view of what a rail mounted laser or flashlight on your weapon provides you. I can only say well, then the rail has ran it's course for you, or perhaps you never really understood it in the first place.... I will send flowers.
Not at all,...
I am saying, flashlights on weapons are handy, thinking they make you bullet proof and multiply your numbers by 3 is just wrong though. If you think that weapon, rail and flashlight will be all it takes to save you, well then the whole intent of the rail and flashlight or laser was lost on you.
They may have not run their course, but like any tool it has limitations that many people here wont acknowledge them. How many times have you read here, I have the weapon and the flashlight is mounted, now I will now clear my home..?
I am saying if you have an alarm and lights that come on when the alarm is tripped you are much better off than clearing your house with a Pistol or shotgun with a flashlight on a rail.
I dont have to load my shotgun,..it is loaded, as long as I stay put and the alarm and dog are busy, I have two doors between me and the bad guy I have time to rack a slide and take a better defencive position.
I dont need a flashlight when the alarm and lights come on. I will hide and wait for the alarm, dog and LEO's to do their jobs.
Being on the Defence rather than offence increases my odds of survival dramatically. The money spent on these things far surpasses the value of a light mounted on the weapon I choose to defend my home with.
If you need a weapon mounted flashlight professionally, good for you, get one and learn how to use it.
If you are the average homeowner, get a great alarm system, get a dog and get to know your Local LEO's. The money and time spent will increase your odds of survival.
If you would rather leave safety because you have a distorted view of what a rail mounted laser or flashlight on your weapon provides you. I can only say well, then the rail has ran it's course for you, or perhaps you never really understood it in the first place.... I will send flowers.
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JohnBT
Member
The rail fad must be over if I'm buying guns with rails.
I'm 59 and a stick in the mud and 2 of my last three handgun purchases have had rails - an FNP-45 USG and a SIG X-5 Tactical with a threaded barrel. Like I need a threaded barrel, but the great 4.5# trigger sold me on it. The 3rd gun was more typical for me - a '67 4" Python. Like I needed another Python.
John
I'm 59 and a stick in the mud and 2 of my last three handgun purchases have had rails - an FNP-45 USG and a SIG X-5 Tactical with a threaded barrel. Like I need a threaded barrel, but the great 4.5# trigger sold me on it. The 3rd gun was more typical for me - a '67 4" Python. Like I needed another Python.
John
JN01
Member
Don't have any use for them personally, but don't care one way or the other if a gun has them. I wonder if some sort of rail cover would pacify those who are offended by the aesthetics of them?
HorseSoldier
Member
Rails are here to stay, and will only get more common and numerous as time goes on. I'd venture to guess the only market niche where non-railed designs will remain viable for real working are pocket pistols, and even for those some options have rails as well.
JohnBT
Member
"will only get more common"
You're right, of course. I guess I could Dremel 'em off or something. I have this Dremel kit somebody gave me and I never use it. Touch up the scar with some black appliance paint and it'd be good to go. Oh, I have a half a can of black Rustoleum I could use.
John
You're right, of course. I guess I could Dremel 'em off or something. I have this Dremel kit somebody gave me and I never use it. Touch up the scar with some black appliance paint and it'd be good to go. Oh, I have a half a can of black Rustoleum I could use.
John
Deanimator
Member
I don't own a handgun with a rail. If I have any alternative, I won't. I bought a 2nd Gen Glock 19 to avoid the rail and finger grooves.
The rail is useless to me so there's no point in having it.
The rail is useless to me so there's no point in having it.
CoRoMo
Member
Here to stay, for good, forever.
At least two of my handguns have rails. A couple future ones will surely have them too.
The rail is useful to be so there's a point in having it.
At least two of my handguns have rails. A couple future ones will surely have them too.
The rail is useful to be so there's a point in having it.
Harold Mayo
Member
Rails aren't a fad...they're here to stay. I don't like them, personally, but my personal opinion isn't likely to affect the firearms industry overly much.
Zach S
Member
444 said was I was going to say, however said it much better than I would have.
There's really no point in not having one on a service-sized handgun. I wish the 1911 makers made all their rails the same though.
I really dont see the point in a rail on a gun with a <4" bbl though. Yeah, I'm talking to you, Kimber and Springfield.
There's really no point in not having one on a service-sized handgun. I wish the 1911 makers made all their rails the same though.
I really dont see the point in a rail on a gun with a <4" bbl though. Yeah, I'm talking to you, Kimber and Springfield.
Glasstream15
Member
I am partially paralyzed and have difficulty getting around. I frequently have to use a walker to get around in the house and carrying things is sometimes difficult. Even on my best days I have to steady myself on something as i walk around. So I really need to be able to do everything one handed or take a chance of falling which leaves me and the Admiral in a bad condition if there were to be a home invasion.
I have 4 handguns. 2 have rails and 2 don't. A rail on a P3AT is silly. And I think a laser on one is silly too. It's a deep conceal or can't possibly conceal another gun and anything that makes it larger is defeating it's purpose. And I carry it in the hottest part of the summer in Florida.
My Kel-Tec PF9 has a rail and a CAT laser. I take the laser off sometimes when I carry it, sometimes leave it on, especially if I will be out late. The laser stays aligned quite well with on and off, it's just a PITA because it takes an allen wrench. And the laser is very small and fits in a Desantis holster.
My G19 has a Streamlight TLR2 on and off. Quick thumb screw and it's off in the daytime and on at night. 15 second job. I keep it on light/laser combo and if I light something up the red dot is right in the middle of the light. I like haveing that option, especially for HD. I mostly use the G19 as a winter carry gun, because I rarely wear enough clothes to conceal a gun as large as the compact Glock. It's Florida.
My primary HD gun does not have a rail and I really wish it did. I have seen instructions for adding one, but I'm not quite sure I want to do that to my Ruger KP90. So I end up carrying the gun and a 140 lumen flashlight and I would really love to have that all in one hand. Yeah the Glock has 15+1 or 17+1 when I put the G17 mag in it, but the Ruger is more comfortable to shoot and, to me, seems more "natural" for point shooting.
We do have an alarm, but as the saying goes "When seconds count the cops are only minutes away. And the way our house is laid out, there really aren't any hiding places to wait for help. It's a very open layout. And neither of us is physically up to taking care of a dog. Even a small but noisy one requires being walked and excersized and a lot of things that we have just gotten too old to do.
So, we just have to do what we can. Oh, and I have finally decided that my 12 gauge is not an acceptable HD gun except as a last resort if we can manage to get together behind the bed in the master BR. It's just a bit more bulky than I am up to now
And a rail sort of adds a slim line to a gun if there is nothing on it. I actually like the esthetics of the rail.
JMNSHO &, of course, YMMV
I have 4 handguns. 2 have rails and 2 don't. A rail on a P3AT is silly. And I think a laser on one is silly too. It's a deep conceal or can't possibly conceal another gun and anything that makes it larger is defeating it's purpose. And I carry it in the hottest part of the summer in Florida.
My Kel-Tec PF9 has a rail and a CAT laser. I take the laser off sometimes when I carry it, sometimes leave it on, especially if I will be out late. The laser stays aligned quite well with on and off, it's just a PITA because it takes an allen wrench. And the laser is very small and fits in a Desantis holster.
My G19 has a Streamlight TLR2 on and off. Quick thumb screw and it's off in the daytime and on at night. 15 second job. I keep it on light/laser combo and if I light something up the red dot is right in the middle of the light. I like haveing that option, especially for HD. I mostly use the G19 as a winter carry gun, because I rarely wear enough clothes to conceal a gun as large as the compact Glock. It's Florida.
My primary HD gun does not have a rail and I really wish it did. I have seen instructions for adding one, but I'm not quite sure I want to do that to my Ruger KP90. So I end up carrying the gun and a 140 lumen flashlight and I would really love to have that all in one hand. Yeah the Glock has 15+1 or 17+1 when I put the G17 mag in it, but the Ruger is more comfortable to shoot and, to me, seems more "natural" for point shooting.
We do have an alarm, but as the saying goes "When seconds count the cops are only minutes away. And the way our house is laid out, there really aren't any hiding places to wait for help. It's a very open layout. And neither of us is physically up to taking care of a dog. Even a small but noisy one requires being walked and excersized and a lot of things that we have just gotten too old to do.
So, we just have to do what we can. Oh, and I have finally decided that my 12 gauge is not an acceptable HD gun except as a last resort if we can manage to get together behind the bed in the master BR. It's just a bit more bulky than I am up to now
And a rail sort of adds a slim line to a gun if there is nothing on it. I actually like the esthetics of the rail.
JMNSHO &, of course, YMMV
Glasstream15
Member
For my use, the laser is just in the way on the .380 Kelty. It's a carry it when I can't conceal anything else gun, any use would be in bright light, probably in a mall or WW parking lot, and the laser probably wouldn't be visible any way. As I said, JMHO and what works for me.
blaisenguns
Member
- Joined
- Jul 17, 2009
- Messages
- 453
My main self defense weapon is a Full size Kimber Custom II TLE-RL. I keep a flashlight on it, but It is for home defense, I am not going to Iraq with it, and most bad guys, as far as I know, are unarmed when they break into your home. If ther is significant stats to show that most burglars are armed to the teeth, please show me.
RX-178
Member
I've said it before, and I'll say it again here, since the discussion has certainly gone into this direction.
Lasers and lights on pocket pistols change the outline of the weapon, so if and when it prints in your pocket, the shape of the triggerguard is completely concealed. It prints 'wallet' or 'cell phone', instead of 'gun'.
Lasers and lights on pocket pistols change the outline of the weapon, so if and when it prints in your pocket, the shape of the triggerguard is completely concealed. It prints 'wallet' or 'cell phone', instead of 'gun'.
KJS
Member
I've been thinking about this issue as well. If I buy a semi-auto pistol I think I'd prefer to have a rail on it. At this point I have no desire to mount a light or laser on it, but I'd like to have the option some years down the road should I wish to.
The only thing I can say with confidence is I'm not mounting a bayonet on a pistol. The first time I saw that silly thing, I had to look it up to make sure such a thing actually existed. It was so stupid I assumed it had to be a joke; shockingly, it's not a joke. Well, it is a joke, but it's a joke that exists.
The only thing I can say with confidence is I'm not mounting a bayonet on a pistol. The first time I saw that silly thing, I had to look it up to make sure such a thing actually existed. It was so stupid I assumed it had to be a joke; shockingly, it's not a joke. Well, it is a joke, but it's a joke that exists.
Have rails run their course? Not hardly; it seems guns without rails have run their course.
Some makers are still making handguns without rails, but the average gun buyer, as opposed to the average gun traditionalist or enthusiast, seems to want a rail, and the makers respond to the market.
As for a light on a pistol giving away your position, well, a light in your hand does the same thing. Reflected light bounces off things and illuminates you, regardless, especially if there are white or light-colored ceiling and walls. It is possible to "hide" behind a wall of light, if you know what you are doing, so that a bad guy cannot pinpoint your exact position, but he will know about where you are. Ideally, one man uses the light to shield the movements of a partner, which one reason among several that one man should NOT clear a house or building by himself. One man can remain behind cover, providing directed illumination, while the other's movements are concealed by the light.
When does a weapon-mounted light shine, no pun intended? It is when you know someone is there, and that someone knows you are there; the two of you can indeed shoot each other, but there is not enough light available to identify friend or foe. It IS acceptable to point a weapon at a potential threat.
FWIW, I work night shift big-city police patrol in a big city, and I like to have a light on the weapon, another in my hand, AND a third as a spare. The one in the hand does most of the work.
Some makers are still making handguns without rails, but the average gun buyer, as opposed to the average gun traditionalist or enthusiast, seems to want a rail, and the makers respond to the market.
As for a light on a pistol giving away your position, well, a light in your hand does the same thing. Reflected light bounces off things and illuminates you, regardless, especially if there are white or light-colored ceiling and walls. It is possible to "hide" behind a wall of light, if you know what you are doing, so that a bad guy cannot pinpoint your exact position, but he will know about where you are. Ideally, one man uses the light to shield the movements of a partner, which one reason among several that one man should NOT clear a house or building by himself. One man can remain behind cover, providing directed illumination, while the other's movements are concealed by the light.
When does a weapon-mounted light shine, no pun intended? It is when you know someone is there, and that someone knows you are there; the two of you can indeed shoot each other, but there is not enough light available to identify friend or foe. It IS acceptable to point a weapon at a potential threat.
FWIW, I work night shift big-city police patrol in a big city, and I like to have a light on the weapon, another in my hand, AND a third as a spare. The one in the hand does most of the work.
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