If New Handgun Caliber is Developed These Days... Is It Possible to be Adapted?

[ccsniper]

i really like the 7.62x25 and wish there was modern polymer framed pistols chambered in it. An m&p pistol in 7.62x24 with premium jhps would be pretty sweet.

plus a bazillion

 

[KDS]

I would really like to get a revolver in 327. Ijust can't justify the cost of ammo. I don't understand why a company would spend all the money on R&D for both gun and ammunition design and then not market the heck out of it and make sure its on the shelf at walmart for a decent price. Something below or at the cost of 38 special. You can't even order it online for a good price most of the time. If ammo was cheap, I'd have a j frame and k frame in this caliber, not to mention a single action or 2.

 

[Cryogaijin]

I can envision it being totally worthless for anything except punching holes in steel plate and body armor.

You need better vision. Finding a tungsten alloy that is soft enough to expand/deform is quite possible, while still keeping it twice as dense as lead. But yeah, it would be quite penetrant.

I can also envision it having so much recoil & muzzle blast as to be uncontrollable in fast follow-up shots.

Better vision++ there are myriad recoil reducing technologies out there, especially if you design the gun around them. Since we're already talking new materials and a new system this isn't out of the question.

You are talking low end centerfire rifle ballistics.

That is kinda the point. Cart technology has been essentially stagnant since the brass cased smokeless cart was invented. There have been design differences, but nothing really revolutionary has come along. With new materials and designs getting something up into the high end of magnum rifle pressures shouldn't be too terribly difficult. That said, I suspect we're 20 years out from the various materials being ready for prime time.

I can also envision it being totally against Federal law in the United States, as it would fall under the "Cop Killer" bullet ban provided for in the 1994 Violent Crime Control and Law Enforcement Act.

Maybe maybe not. It is somewhat out of the scope of this question, and a bit on the political side.

 

[JohnBiltz]

I can't think of a single round that is really popular that did not start as a military or police round and that goes back to .45 long colt.

 

[whalerman]

Here in New Yawk, many police agencies went to the 10mm. That went bust. Now many police agencies went to the .45 GAP. That's now going bust. But we have lots of money here in New Yawk for fads.

 

[Trebor]

The last real succesful new handgun cartridge was the .40 S&W, and that's about 20 years old now.

The .357 Sig? A few LEO agencies use it, and it may soldier on for them, but I don't see it as a popular cartridge.

The .45 GAP? Dead, or soon to be dead.

The .327? Should have caught on, but didn't. I'd say it's on life support.

All of those are still in production, but I don't know if I'd call any of them "succesful" (except fo the .40 S&W)

There are others that are totally dead. Anyone shoot a .41 AE lately?

I think all the niches have been covered and don't see where any new cartridge would fit in.

 

[Ben86]

I can envision it being totally worthless for anything except punching holes in steel plate and body armor.

I can also envision it having so much recoil & muzzle blast as to be uncontrollable in fast follow-up shots.
You are talking low end centerfire rifle ballistics.

I can also envision it being totally against Federal law in the United States, as it would fall under the "Cop Killer" bullet ban provided for in the 1994 Violent Crime Control and Law Enforcement Act.

Your visions are awfully pessimistic. With properly designed expanding ammo the hyper velocity could result in mind blowing expansion while still having 12 inches of penetration. Low end centerfire ballistics is what I'm after. With a special gas system and integral suppressor recoil and muzzle blast can be controlled. It may be illegal in armor piercing steel tipped form, but not in regular fmj or jhp. Much like 5.56 pistols.

It may sound silly, but lofty plans for future tech. often do. I really think the future is basically short, hyper-velocity rifle rounds out of a pistol.

 

[Prosser]

I just ran 185 grain at 2100 fps, in a 2.2 pound gun:
Recoil Energy of 36 foot pounds, and Recoil Velocity of 32 fps.
That's about the same as .475 Linebaugh in my FA 83, 400 grains at 1350 fps,
IIRC.

In a 3.2 pound gun, same as my FA 83's, Recoil Energy of 25 foot pounds, and Recoil Velocity of 22 fps.. That's 44 magnum territory.

It's kind of odd, but one of my favorite legends used something similar to take
pretty much every game animal on the planet. Lee Jurras, when he owned Hi-vel, would load 185 grain .44 magnum loads at 1900 fps. That drops the recoil to Recoil Energy of 20 foot pounds, and Recoil Velocity of 20 fps. That's low .44 Magnum recoil. He would tailor the bullets to his target, mainly using LFN
type jacketed bullets. The velocity makes a big wound channel by it's self.

 

[gyvel]

45-38 handgun cartridge.

Been done already. Back a few decades, a wildcat was introduced that was a .45 ACP necked down to .38. It was called the .38/.45 something-or-other (don't remember the exact name), and had a moderate following. It really was a good feeder in 1911s that were converted. I had a set of dies and a barrel for it a couple years ago that I got in pile of stuff from an estate.

 

[tipoc]

The challenge the .327 Magnum had was poor marketing. It was marketed as a self defense round that gave you ".357 Magnum ballistics" in a smaller lighter handgun or some such. 1400 fps with close to 400 ft/pds. of energy, wow, wow, wow!

Problem was that it did not ring quite true. The bullet was smaller in diameter and lighter in weight than the .357 Mag and many shooters who had their 38s and 357s did not see where it got them enough more than the .38 Spl. +P for them to move to a new round. Energy from the muzzle is not the same as power. With a heavier bullet, like 115 grs, the 327 could get 1300 fps or so but folks had the 9mm for that venue.

Where the .327 does shine is as a modern version of the old 32-20. A good target, plinker and varmint round. With the plus of being able to shoot the 32 H&R, etc. through it. Could be a lot of fun from a lever gun or a pump. But it was not pushed in this way unfortunately.

tipoc

 

[Sam Cade]

Been done already. Back a few decades, a wildcat was introduced that was a .45 ACP necked down to .38. It was called the .38/.45 something-or-other (don't remember the exact name), and had a moderate following. It really was a good feeder in 1911s that were converted.

Probably thinking of 45-38 Clerke.

More recently the .38 Casull popped up.

 

[JohnBiltz]

I can't think of a single round that is really popular that did not start as a military or police round and that goes back to .45 long colt.

I actually did think of one. 30-30. Yeah, you have to go way back. Special circumstances on that one too. If it wasn't the first smokeless hunting round it was close to it and it had Winchester behind it.

 

[oldfool]

Depends on what adopted means; pretty much every handgun cartridge ever was is still being shot by somebody somewhere.

Some examples being the big bore cartridges mentioned in thread. You cannot very well say they have not been adopted, but on the other hand, they don't sell the ammo round counts like 38sp, 357, 40 S&W, 45 acp or 9 mm, much less 22 rimfire. As for 40S&W, was it really newly evolved and adopted, or was it really the not so widely adopted 10mm devolved ? (heckifiknow)

To be widely adopted by average-joe civilian, to be truly popular, to see a bunch of handguns chambered for that round in just any gun shop you just might happen to wander into (and ammo on wallyworld shelves), it pretty much has to be 1st adopted by LE or military. Obvious examples being the aforementioned 38sp, 357, 40 S&W, 45 acp or 9 mm. Why is the AR so wildly popular (the 223 is anything but new) - it's because that's what the 'big boys' use, or at least mighty like it; it's not the cartridge, it's the firearm.

Seems to me, that there have already been so many attempts at new & different for "service" calibers, that there simply is no performance gap to be filled, there is already more than ample overlap.

One cartridge that really had a great chance I think is the 327. But I agree with Craig C on that. I think the performance potential of the 327 has enough appeal; the failure is in not offering more/other handguns to shoot it out of. They mostly pushed it at snubbies, and a 6th round in a J-size is just not appealing enough vs the wide array of 38/357 snubbies already out there. If they had offered more handgun selections, I would probably own one by now. It has rapidly become just another too high priced round not commonly found on the store shelf that chambers in too few guns.

But any new revolver cartridge is at a severe disadvantage in the widespread popularity contest, simply because odds of LE or military adoption are slim and none.

The not-new-cartridge 380 acp trend being driven by the 7 shot derringer craze. That's what they were counting on, I guess, for the 327, but those snubbies just cannot downsize all the way to where the 380s are. The gun counts for a whole lot more than the caliber does in that example, and that is where the 327 came up short.

 

[oldfool]

Just an afterthought here, on the 327...
I do wonder what might have been if Ruger had first introduced the LCR in 327 only.

Some might feel the new/different gun compelling enough reason, and it strikes me as a better matchup for the LCR than the 38sp, and an even better matchup than 357 in LCR.

I guess they felt they were rolling the dice on high enough odds with just the different gun design.
But with all the performance overlap in handgun cartridges, there needs be something "compelling" about the firearm itself to get the round off the ground.
(look at what da' Judge did for 410 buckshot, for better or worse, they sell)

 

[tipoc]

Quote:
"I can't think of a single round that is really popular that did not start as a military or police round and that goes back to .45 long colt."

I actually did think of one. 30-30. Yeah, you have to go way back. Special circumstances on that one too. If it wasn't the first smokeless hunting round it was close to it and it had Winchester behind it.

I think we kinda have to stick with handgun rounds for this discussion. New rifle rounds have been introduced fairly frequently in recent years, though the recession seems to have slowed that down some, particularly the plethora of short magnum rounds. The bar is also set at a different height, in terms of sales, for what makes a successful hunting round than what makes a successful handgun round. The 7mm Remington Magnum which was introduced in 1962, has been a very successful rifle round with no military past. There are a number of others as well.

tipoc

 

[Cop Bob]

I think that the secret to a cartridge becoming a commercial success, is #1 adaptation my Military (38spcl, 45acp, 45-70, 30-40 krag, 30-06,308,223, 50bmg), or major Govt contract, (the 40 comes to mind).. There is some talk in the Special Ops community about an intermediate cartridge, so the 6.5 or the 6.8 Grennell ? may make a commercial success, many makers are starting to chamber for it..

It seems that past success have been helped along by availability of surplus weapons, and brass, as well as returning vets taking a liking to them.. The 40 S&W became such a hugh success because the 10mm was to much a a bear to handle, so they toned it down, when the FBI picked it up, other LE Trainers got to looking at it and realized that it was a very good blend of size, weight capacity and speed..

But the one thing that is being overlooked... If the Gun Rags.. I mean, Magazines start writing favorable reviews and articles, the gun makers and ammo makers tart tooling up for them because they start getting request... It is AMAZING how much revenue in sales is generated of of magazine articles... and sales drive it all..

 

[Justin Holder]

Another cartridge that was not marketed right was the .480 Ruger. It seems like it vanished overnight. If Ruger had chambered it in a Bisley or Super Blackhawk single action it would still be around.

If Marlin had made a lever action rifle and Ruger had made a six shot Blackhawk with a convertible cylinder in .32-20 WCF, the .327 mag. would have had a bigger following.

 

[tipoc]

But the one thing that is being overlooked... If the Gun Rags.. I mean, Magazines start writing favorable reviews and articles, the gun makers and ammo makers tart tooling up for them because they start getting request... It is AMAZING how much revenue in sales is generated of of magazine articles... and sales drive it all..

The gun magazines often work in tandem with the ammo, and or gun manufacturers in generating buzz about a cartridge. That is marketing campaigns. This was the case most recently with the .357 Sig. That round was introduced in 1994 and unlike the .40 S&W (introduced 1990 or so) aroused little enthusiasm and saw little sales. It was adopted by a few law enforcement organizations but not much action around it at all. Till about 3 years ago when a significant campaign was launched by the ammo and gun manufacturers (in concert with the appearance of a few switch caliber guns). The usual suspects were drawn upon to write glowing reviews of the round with some interesting claims in the gun mags and other venues and buzz generated on the internet. This was a successful campaign that revived a round that was fading away. All due to successful marketing.

tipoc

 

[CraigC]

Another cartridge that was not marketed right was the .480 Ruger.

I agree 100%! Ruger really dropped the ball with this one. The .480 deserves to be far more popular than the .460 and .500 S&W's as it is a far more practical, usable "bigger than a .45" big bore. While I greatly prefer a single action and a Bisley chambered in .480 would be the bees knees, the big SRH is actually lighter than a .44Mag Bisley Hunter model.

 

[gyvel]

Probably thinking of 45-38 Clerke.

Yes! That was it! Thanks.

 

[Ben86]

So if I want to have any chance at developing sales for a new caliber I need to get the gun rags involved? I don't doubt it. Police or military adoption is probably another must.

 

[Maple_City_Woodsman]

How often do you see or hear about .45 GAP? I think you could develop a new caliber but getting anyone to adopt it would be an uphill battle.

This is going to be the most critical mistake people will make regarding this debate.

45 GAP didn't offer the shooters anything at all in terms of new capabilities, NOR did it offer anything new in platform. All of the 45GAP guns have the same recoil, energy, magazine capacity, and operational platform as the 45acp counterparts that came only months later. Its singular advantage was the ability to shoot it in a slightly smaller 9/40 frame as opposed to a 45 size frame... and the phisical difference in size between a Glock 23 and a Glock 22 isn't all that much.

If a cartridge actually offers some kind of ballistic improvement, like the 357 Sig over a 9mm, then it will likely carve out a space for itself.

If the platform the round fires from offers some kind of capability improvement, like the 5.7's high capacity and fast followups, then it will likely carve out a space for itself.

I'd love to see a 45-40 or 45-38 handgun cartridge.

Those both exist already. You can get drop in conversion kits for any standard 1911 ... and they are STILL not at all popular ... because they are not 45acp, and hard core 1911 guys are the most closed minded sect of our closed minded sport.

 

[Chindo18Z]

I think that there is room in the marketplace for factory .41 Special.

The .41 Remington Magnum keeps hanging on after all these decades. Availability of 175-200 gr, 900-1000 fps .41 Special rounds might result in new medium frame .41 Special revolvers becoming popular. Such an offering would simultaneously be attractive to .41 Magnum revolver and carbine owners. I'd certainly like to see it offered in places like Wal-Mart. The .41 niche needs broadly offered and affordable loads...for both SD & practice...as not everyone reloads. Perhaps something like a .41 Special Gold Dot (or LSWCHP) along with a WWB .41 Special FMJ.

Now if Colt would just come out with an alloy framed .41 Special Trooper...

And if Smith would come out with a lock-less, stainless, lug-less, L-Frame Model (or even an N-Frame "658")...

 

[antiquus]

I agree the 327's problem was the guns they offered it in. No one took a chance to do something really significant and design a gun around the cartridge instead of rolling out the same old offerings with maybe one more round. The 327 isn't a snubbie round, it should be a 3' barrel, and it should be 8 shots. Then it could become the standout revolver round it should have been.

 

[harmon rabb]

I think that there is room in the marketplace for factory .41 Special.

The .41 Remington Magnum keeps hanging on after all these decades. Availability of 175-200 gr, 900-1000 fps .41 Special rounds might result in new medium frame .41 Special revolvers becoming popular. Such an offering would simultaneously be attractive to .41 Magnum revolver and carbine owners. I'd certainly like to see it offered in places like Wal-Mart. The .41 niche needs broadly offered and affordable loads...for both SD & practice...as not everyone reloads. Perhaps something like a .41 Special Gold Dot (or LSWCHP) along with a WWB .41 Special FMJ.

Now if Colt would just come out with an alloy framed .41 Special Trooper...

And if Smith would come out with a lock-less, stainless, lug-less, L-Frame Model (or even an N-Frame "658")...

180gr @ 1000fps? that's 40s&w, and revolvers are already chambered for it. not so sure a 41 special would be worthwhile as a result.