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Have We Been Desensitized?

Discussion in 'Handguns: Autoloaders' started by Jotobo, Jan 7, 2011.

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  1. Jotobo

    Jotobo Member

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    There is this continual argument of caliber forever. People seem to be convinced that not only will a certain caliber be the end all be all, but that you have to have a certain load of ammo...

    At one point is it just enough to carry some form of firearm protection and have a form of proficient use with it?
     
  2. brandon_mcg

    brandon_mcg Member

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    i'm not sure if it is desensitization more so than people being over opinionated.

    you get the same arguments with brands of guns, computers, guitars, cars, etc.

    buy what you like and, as you said, what you are going to practice with and become proficient with.
     
  3. 1SOW

    1SOW Member

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    There was a TV news story two days ago in San Antonio TX about a couple who were upstairs asleep when they heard loud noises downstairs. They both came to the top of the stairs and yelled "Who's there." Downstairs, a stranger had broken into their home looked up at them. The woman raised a pistol (9mm I believe) and shot once. They then called the police who found the bad guy downstairs dead. They also caught his partner who ran.

    She was evidently either extremely lucky or very proficient with an obviously adequate pistol.

    I tend to agree with you up to a point. Would a two inch barrel 22lr revolver make you feel confident you could protect yourself or family? Probably not, so the question always comes up; what weapon will make you 'feel' adequate to protect your family?

    It's your decision to make. Make it, and don't worry about what's hyped on an anonymous forum.
     
  4. bigfatdave

    bigfatdave Member

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    The continual blathering about caliber or bullet choice* come from people who think their software problems can be solved with hardware purchasing.



    * (beyond using a decent HP design)
     
  5. Damon555

    Damon555 Member

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    I love my GlockKimberSigRugerBarettaSmith&Wesson's. Especially in .22.38.357.38super.45acp.9mm caliber.

    I don't discriminate based on brand or caliber. Quality weapons + quality ammo = good times in my book.
     
  6. Caliper_Mi

    Caliper_Mi Member

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    Yes, any gun is better than no gun, but certain calibers ARE better than others. I don't think we are desensitized, we are educated.

    I think alot of the caliber wars are fought by a few diehards though. For the most part, I think people would agree that somewhere in the .38/380/9mm area is the minimum caliber for SD/HD

    Why do people argue about caliber x vs y? Because there is no counter-argument to statements like "only hits count".
     
  7. Zerodefect

    Zerodefect Member

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    Yeah, pretty much true.

    If you have good training. Magpul, Vickers, TDI etc. Shoot and preferably compete often, IDPA, IPSCA, etc. Then with just about any decent pistol and ammo, you should be ahead of the curve for defense. As long as your Sit Awareness can keep up.

    But if your spouse gets stupid and ends up in the line of fire, you'll want something a bit more accurate. And there's a hundred similar rare senerios where something accurate with decent capacity is a nice thing to have.

    90% of the time a good shooter only needs a little Kahr P9. But there still are very good reasons why larger Glock 23's and 1911's are handy.

    Bottom line for me: I carry as much caliber, ammo, and size of gun as todays or tonights wardrobe will allow, or what my enviroment will allow.

    I obviously carry larger weapons at night when they're easier to conceal, and smaller weapons on a summer day when I have less on.
     
  8. RobMoore

    RobMoore Member

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    With increase in caliber comes a decrease in capacity. Find the balance.

    For me, I don't think the increase in performance of the .45acp over the 9 is worth the decrease in capacity.

    I don't plan on missing much, but we all know how plans survive in battle.
     
  9. shockwave

    shockwave Member

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    Caliber is only part of the picture. Criminologist and researcher Gary Kleck estimates that defensive uses of handguns may number as high as 2 million or so incidents a year.

    Simple math leads to the conclusion that possession of the firearm almost always resolves a critical incident without recourse to wounding or killing the assailant. In other words, brandishing does seem to have a powerful effect in actual practice.

    Because the term is volatile, here I would qualify "brandishing" as not meaning "ostentatious display of firearm to threaten" but rather merely the "production and preparation of weapon." Just in this discussion.

    So a BG is facing you and you draw and it's the very last moment and he or she decides that retreat is the better move. Problem solved.

    In this kind of scenario, which again, is maybe 99.9 percent of all actual uses of the defensive firearm, 1) the BG is uninterested in caliber, and 2) a gun that looks like a gun is probably helpful.

    So I tend to lean toward guns that look like serious guns. The Kahr and Kel-tec and similar mouseguns will have an effect, but there's something to be said for the visuals, too. It's a kind of bonus on top of the total firepower you're bringing to the party.
     
  10. Mike J

    Mike J Member

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    I have read news stories of people being killed by pellet guns but that doesn't mean I would want to use one for self defense. Most folks say anything from .380 in a semi-auto & .38 special in a revolver on up. Personally I own a subcompact 9mm & a couple of .40's. I would say this is definitely a personal choice. As far as ammunition I believe any good JHP will do for defensive purposes.
     
  11. Don357

    Don357 Member

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    Has anybody stopped to think that using a large caliber handgun for presonal defence could open a door for civil and criminal lawsuits in regards to "intent to kill" and "amount of damage", the same way that ammo types and handloaded defence ammo does? A "left wing, anti-gun, liberal, shyster lawyer", could make a humdinger of a case and possibly set legal presidence.
     
    Last edited: Jan 8, 2011
  12. EddieNFL

    EddieNFL member

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    No. It's either a justified shooting or not.

    Would I be considered a criminal for using a shotgun or rifle, rather than a handgun?

    Pretty sure that's the intent anytime someone fires at a threat. No caliber ceiling mentioned.
     
  13. Sam1911

    Sam1911 Moderator

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    About 47 million times. But that's only on one gun forum. It is, of course, so much hooey -- just like it is with various ammo types or handloaded defense ammo.
     
  14. 76shuvlinoff

    76shuvlinoff Member

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    I took a bit a defensive handgun training, I practice albeit not as much as I probably should. I might carry a .45 a .40 or a .380, it's situation dependent. I know how my choices work, I can make quick com hits at defensive ranges but fortunately never have had to do that with my target shooting back at me.

    I feel good about my caliber choices and unless something real world happens to change that I think that's all anyone really has to go on.
     
  15. KBintheSLC

    KBintheSLC Member

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    Yes, any gun is better than no gun. However, if you find yourself in a gun fight, I doubt you will be wishing for a smaller gun.
     
  16. Sniderman

    Sniderman Member

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    Have We Been Desensitized?

    Short answer, Yes, I think we have.
    I agree that proficient use of what you have is paramount to self defense.
    The caliber/load "Discussions" have been going on ever since the first cavemen threw the first rocks,,,(What size rock? round versus angular?)
    If one has ever actually heard a high caliber discharge in a closed space, just the blast/noise is devastating!
    (Long Ago, .44 Special, Stupid/Careless former friend's house)
    For Myself, I've got a .44 Redhawk and a 1911, but the Revolver close at hand at home is loaded with .38s.
    A couple of those in the chest at close range, I obviously beleive, will change a BG's priorities in a hurry.
    LEO's whacked BGs with .38 specials to some quite positive effect for about a century.
    Don't even get me started about the reality of touching off a 12 ga. in the kiutchen!
     
  17. Jotobo

    Jotobo Member

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    At one time I considered buying a .32 acp. You can hardly get through 5 posts without someone using the "dont shoot someone with it, you will only make them mad" comment. But that caliber was used and is still used and works.

    I cant imagine you should be defensively shooting outside of 5 yards, give or take. In those situations I have to believe not only would a .32 work but so would a .22.
     
  18. Proud Southern Son

    Proud Southern Son Member

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    I think it's a matter of the choice of firearm and ammunition being very personal and very important to the person making it. If someone else makes a completely different choice, some people tend to get defensive. It's a fairly natural human response.
    I'm not going to tell anyone they've made the "wrong" choice if they've chosen a reliable weapon that they can fire proficiently, with a reliable round made by a reputable manufacturer, and that they feel comfortable carrying. That being said, I will gladly tell someone why I choose the gun and ammo that I carry.
     
  19. speedway

    speedway Member

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    38 Special or 9mm minimum.

    I do have an 380 LCP on days that I need super deep concealment though.
     
  20. RedAlert

    RedAlert Member

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    I really doubt Shockwave, that if you are staring at the business end of a Kahr or Kel-tec, you are highly unlikely to think to yourself: "All is well, that's only a mousegun!"

    A .40S&W, a 9mm, or .45cal round, in a compact frame gun is just as deadly as from a full size frame weapon.

    Now if you require a significant number of rounds to end the engagement, then by all means select a full size weapon with hi-cap mag to carry.
     
  21. shockwave

    shockwave Member

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    No no no. You miss the point. The problem is that if a person draws a tiny black thing, it might not be recognized as a gun at all. Maybe it's a cell phone, or a canister of CS spray, or a key ring. I don't know.

    Problem is, one of those little mouseguns in the dark, might not even be seen at all. So they have little in the way of brandishment potential. If that's what you have, you may be forced to shoot whereas with something more substantial, you wouldn't.
     
  22. Caliper_Mi

    Caliper_Mi Member

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    ... so, invest in a Desert Eagle! :evil:

    Actually, you have a good point. Especially with some of the .22 mini revolvers out there!
     
  23. HelterSkelter

    HelterSkelter Member

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    people just like to make sure that they kill the bad guy as dead as possible. say load A kills bad guy 100% dead and load b kills them 150% dead. load b is better. nuff said.
     
  24. ol' scratch

    ol' scratch Member

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    This CAN'T be true. Everyone knows the 9mm doesn't have any stopping power. It has all the effectiveness of a thrown stone. You made this up and it is an elaborate scheme to get people to buy 9mm handguns. Everyone knows that a pistol round isn't effective unless it has a '4' in the name.:rolleyes:
     
  25. ol' scratch

    ol' scratch Member

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    Double post
     
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