Have you attended formal tactical firearms training?

Have you attended formal tactical firearms training?


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Mudinyeri, I actually see his point. I did a bunch of research before going to Shootrite. Several schools had (IMHO) stupid high round counts for a 3 day course, like 1500 rounds (handgun) AND 1k for the rifle, or visa versa. Sounded like round count was getting substituted for actual, you know, training. :)
 
Mudinyeri, I actually see his point. I did a bunch of research before going to Shootrite. Several schools had (IMHO) stupid high round counts for a 3 day course, like 1500 rounds (handgun) AND 1k for the rifle, or visa versa. Sounded like round count was getting substituted for actual, you know, training. :)

Oh, I don't disagree that such schools/instructors are out there. But, if you do a bit of research, you can find a good instructor. Why would one avoid instruction from a good instructor ... or assume that all instructors are worthless? Sounds like elitism or hubris to me. Neither of which will do you a lick of good in a firefight.

As far as round count goes ... 500 rounds in an 8 hour day isn't that many. I can easily burn through 500 rounds in a 2-3 hour practice session. But, I won't argue that round count is a substitute for good training or practice. Lot's of rounds fired with little foundation brings little but familiarity. Which brings us back to training. Hmmm. :)
 
If I found a course close that I wanted to attend I might. I've thought of taking a shotgun course here in Phoenix. I could use it. But for the most part no. When I start reading a syllabus I just lose interest. I'm not a LEO, don't want to be a LEO and have no need of LEO skills. I was a grunt for a long time, twenty years. But while I have an AR, I gave up being a grunt and don't plan on being one again too old for one thing. There are skills you get from being a grunt: situational awareness and a willingness to take the shot when its you or him. What I would like is a true self defense pistol course for someone who CCWs the way I do. I don't want to learn how to do tactical reloads. I don't carry a spare magazine normally. If I do its in a pocket not a magazine carrier. I'm not carrying some full size gun in a OWB or drop leg holster. Its going to come out of a IWB holster or a pocket. So I see a course that says I need a quality belt holster and two magazine pouches and I stop reading because its not teaching what I want and need.
 
JohnBiltz said:
...What I would like is a true self defense pistol course for someone who CCWs the way I do. ... Its going to come out of a IWB holster or a pocket. So I see a course that says I need a quality belt holster and two magazine pouches and I stop reading because its not teaching what I want and need.
I'm not sure you'll find anyone who does. But when I took Massad Ayoob's class a while ago, I was carrying my gun for the class IWB (but I always carry extra magazines).

JohnBiltz said:
...I'm not a LEO, don't want to be a LEO and have no need of LEO skills...
It sounds like Massad Ayoob's MAG40 would be a good class for you. Mas covers the legal and social aspects of self defense in far more depth than any other instructor I know of, and that's information that would be useful no matter how you choose to carry your gun.

He taught MAG40 in Phoenix last week, so you just missed him. But he'll be down in Sierra Vista next March.
 
I've been to several schools in and out of the military, in and out of government. I've also had several on-on-one experiences that might be classified as training.

In my opinion, the best schools and instructors focused on simple, common sense skills; draw, aim, fire, reload. The tactics involved simple common sense decisions with survival as the main or only goal. Knowing where and how to avoid conflict are key, de-escalating must be done from a position of advantage (or obvious and clear parity) and immediate, overwhelming deadly force is absolutely the last option. Being good at shooting under a chair or while falling on my butt are far down the list of things I 'need to know'.

I have no plans to attend any classes at the current time or the near future. Selection when necessary will be based on simple needs when and if they occur. Until then I'll sit on the seat of the chair-not under it and when ever possible I'll stay standing-it's just too damn hard to get up off my big fat butt. Common sense tells me that when I see a training organization offer a laundry list of things to learn-like the under the chair or falling on my butt technique, that my money and time will be better spent on beer and nachos. If I need to seek assistance it will be about honing the basics (draw, aim, fire, reload) to as fine an edge as possible.

I hope this addresses the OP's questions; I'd be willing to elaborate on specific issues with the proper questions.
 
So I see a course that says I need a quality belt holster and two magazine pouches and I stop reading because its not teaching what I want and need.

Ok, so since we have answered the OPs question honestly, would it be fair to now pose one to the OP, or Sam, or the other advocates of the formal courses who have found that their training was indeed valuable? Since I would primarily look for training for the purposes of what I thought I "needed" and not something that I wanted, I would basically see it the same way as Johnbiltz. What should I look for in a course (or class) that dealt specifically with handguns in a primarily defensive setting, such as CCW and SD/HD? And what should I stay away from? Not necessarily specific names, but I agree with him, if I ever have to draw it will most likely be from a IWB. It's likely to be fairly close and/or dark. What would be the major advantages of taking a course such as the one that I mentioned, or what could I hope to gain from it?

From my research into pistol classes it's a fairly costly venture, mostly because they're aren't many around here and there would be some traveling involved. I'd estimate the costs of a 2-3 day class to range from $600 on the low side to $1200 (some were a lot higher) on the high side. Not that I'd mind paying for quality, but, if I applied that same number to my mortgage once a year I'd pay my house off 7 years early.
 
Old krow,

I don't have a very specific answer for you (at least as to which trainer would be "best") but I think you and even jfdavis58 are not far off the right track. You're getting at some of what I was trying to say with my "what do you want..." line of discussion back a page or two. Obviously you can weed out (almost) any class with "tactical" or "competition" in the title and carbine courses are probably not where you want to go as most of them seem to be focused a bit beyond simple self-defense.

Most instructors are going to recommend (maybe even require) a sturdy belt and holster and a way to carry reloads. It's a class with lots of shooting. Your equipment needs to be up to the task, safe, and no-one wants to wait for you to go back to the bench and find 5 more .38s because you don't carry any reloads. :eek:

The more deeply/casually you carry -- meaning, only in a pocket, only a KelTec or J-frame, no spare mag or reload, etc (or if you only carry in a shoulder holster, cross-draw, SOB, ankle, Thunderwear, etc.) -- the harder it will be to find a course that teaches that specific thing. Those are tricky set-ups for range use (both for safety reasons and for class pacing), and you may be best served with a one-on-one private class with an instructor. That, of course, can be expensive.

I don't know of any instructors teaching a personal self-defense oriented class that would prohibit IWBs, though. Heck, you can compete with them in IDPA, etc., so there should be no trouble with that in a class.

As for class content, an honest assessment of skill level is probably a good start. I know everyone thinks they're an awesome shot (;)) but I mean, for real... Decide for yourself if you shoot Expert/Master level in IDPA/USPSA or other competition, you might not want to spend hundreds of dollars on a class that's going to have you doing a lot of basic marksmanship drills. (Though almost everyone can learn something useful from a good teacher going over fundamentals.) Maybe you should be looking at a more advanced class focusing on the fighting aspects.

If, on the other hand, you're a pistol owner and CCW-er, but really don't get more than 100 rds. a month downrange, and that on paper targets on a "square" range -- then a course that gives you a good grounding in using your holster, obtaining a proper grip and smooth draw, reloading (hey, everyone runs out of ammo eventually! :)), quickly obtaining a sight picture, and smooth trigger control is going to be a really valuable upgrade to your skills. Some trainer or other has as his slogan the old saw about "speed is fine but accuracy is final." That's at least half-way true. Gotta have the fundamentals down.

How far above those fundamentals do you want to go? And in which direction? That depends on a couple of things. If you are at a stage where, for example, getting the "rule of 3s" (3 shots, 3 yards, 3 sec starting with the gun holstered in your normal carry mode) down pat is challenging, then the best course for you is going to reign back the scope of instruction to getting your gunhandling skills developed.

I understand what jfdavis58 is getting at with the "falling out of the chair, shooting under it" type stuff. There are courses that take accomplished shooters who have already demonstrated proficiency at the fundamentals and understand how to work with a gun in a social setting, and put them through drills that seek to simulate the very worst of gunfighting situations (teaching how to react to being tackled, trying to draw with your arms pinned or while being pummled, trying to retain your weapon while fending off a knife attack, how to shoot an attacker that's on top of you pinning you to the ground, etc.). Not everyone wants to go through that, or even believes that they could find themselves in those situations.

However, in between the "stand and deliver" range work of drawing your gun and putting shots on a cardboard target at 7 yds, and the heavy-duty "fighting with a gun" courses, there is the reality of how actual gunfights happen on the street.

Personally, I think training for something a bit more complicated, a bit more difficult, a bit less likely than you're ever going to encounter in real life makes some sense. At the very least, a mid-level self-defense class should have you moving while shooting, especially moving off the "line of force." I would want to see some practice in shooting "from retention" meaning very close, VERY fast, unsighted fire at targets from 0-3 yds. That's extremely practical stuff and there are right and wrong ways of going about it. Shooting around cover is also a great thing to be shown how to do, especially how to use that cover correctly, not crowd it, and how to keep your own target profile as small as possible. If circumstances allow, a good self-defense course really aught to get into the proper use of a flashlight in low/no light situations. That is just HARD, no two ways about it, and deserves more practice than folks usually put into it.

In truth, no one ever had to draw their gun to protect their life against a flat cardboard person, standing still, 7 yds away, on a nice range, on a sunny day, with a convenient timer going "beep" to tell them when they should react to the "attack." :D
 
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<--------- Current police firearms instructor.

I also try and get into as many classes as I can myself to maintain/improve my own proficiency and gain additional knowlege that I can pass on.

Seriously, training gives you a distinct edge in confidence, marksmenship skill and efficient, safe gunhandling techniques. There's a big difference between learning how to punch paper or hunt with a firearm verses fighting with one.

One of the best investments I've made is the NRA's Personal Firearms Defense series of training videos with Rob Pincus. I make them available for my guys to watch so they can pick up different things from them.

The one they really must have liked was on blade defense and how to employ knives.
I'd walk in the office there for awhile and I'd see blades flashing as they were practicing the techniques they'd learned from the video. It was like walking into a medieval training ground. :what:

I'm not so worried about them getting into a shooting now as I am a stabbing. :uhoh: :D
 
Have to admit I've never done the "fall out of chair, shoot target" drill (and don't want to either), but if I did so, the basics of shooting a handgun would still apply. :cool:

Getting coached on the basics and a bit beyond is a great training feature. As I said, I had a couple of issues that good coaching corrected. These were indeed basic issues that I had simply accepted as I did not know how (or a good reason why)to do better.

Case in point would be my draw stroke. I have had instruction on the 4 count draw many times, but never paid much attention as I liked mine better. Once the reasoning behind each of the 4 steps was explained, I adopted the technique. IWB, crossdraw, pocket carry, all work better with the principles of the 4 count draw. So, while I was trained using a Glock in a strong side holster, the principles remain despite my carry choice. :)
 
the same people that pay big money for the equipment don’t always want to invest in their skills.

That's me.

I haven't and don't plan to.

Honestly, I've always got my gun on me and I can shoot at least decent. Probably 95+% of realistic circumstances can be solved with those two things. Is training worth the extra cash, it's kind of like the gun, it's worth it if you ever need it. At this point I'm willing to risk it.

I also try to avoid anything firearms related with the word "Tactical" in it, I just have a mall ninja come to mind every time I hear the word now. I would be much more likely to attend a "Defensive pistol/rifle class" than something "Tactical."

My guns are for hunting, defense, and fun, not necessarily in that order. For some reason when I think of training I think offensive more than defensive. Defense just seems to hard to predict to adequately train for. So I buy the gun, practice with it, and carry it. Like I said I feel that would be sufficent at least 95% of the time.
 
I don't have a very specific answer for you (at least as to which trainer would be "best") but I think you and even jfdavis58 are not far off the right track.

The answer were actually very insightful, thank you. My questions on the other hand weren't the best representation of what I am looking for, I had already researched some of the schools and narrowed down a "short list" so-to-speak. I'm leaning heavily toward a fundamental "draw, aim, fire, reload" type course. I'm going with a small group and I do not think that the training would be lost on anyone, so it's probably the best route to take IMHO.

I got the answers to the questions that I asked, but I really didn't ask the questions that needed to be asked. I'd like to how the argument would be made to convince someone that is new to firearms to attend formal training. What would you recommend the bare minimum be in a defensive handgun training course? Would you stick with a "draw, aim, fire, reload" type course? Would you go further than that at first? Assuming of course that they took a safety course, because most make it a pre-req anyway. I know Sam recommended some training on the lights, I'm just not seeing it in the shorter courses, but I do agree.

Here are a couple of issues that I see with instruction. One, and probably the worst of them is information saturation. There are 2 ways to effectively control information; completely restrict it, or make everything available to where the truth becomes a laborious duty. If you wanna know what I mean, google "tactical flip flops." (they're $19.99 BTW) :rolleyes: Google "handgun training" and you could be here for days searching the results. The people that are the most likely to wade through this information probably need it the least.

Two, and I'm not sure if this is funny or just so frustrating that I laughed but... I took my mom out one day to rent a couple pistols for her CCW because she thought that she might be happier with one as opposed to a revolver. My kids are in HS if that's any indication of her age. When I asked about them they offered a 5" Tactical .45ACP. That wasn't all that far fetched, I mean, people carry 1911s all the time. They kept getting bigger though until the last one, it was a 6" barrel with a custom trigger and low tension springs. All's well that ends well, mom got to shoot her auto as their was a nice guy at the range that day :) This was compounded on the way out the door when my friend (he's attending the class as well) asked if he could CC his revolver. I told him that I didn't think it would be a great idea because it has a 6" barrel. His reply - "if that guy can CC that big ole gun why can't I CC mine? I mean, he ought to know, he's the handgun instructor."

If you had to give somebody advise on how to avoid that, what would you say? How would you steer them in the right direction?
 
i have attended several courses, and will continue to do so. this as you can see from the replies is not the best forum for training junkies, heck even people that entertain the idea of training, many on here have no mindset what so ever, it has almost driven me away many times. This is exactly why my signature line is what it is here, on this forum.

OP,
I didn't know your company existed, now i do, and i will be sure to come see you when i move back home to NC.
 
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You tube has a wealth of information and is easy to incorporate into your range trips.

Personal Defense Network with Rob Pincus http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z4ProU2aZnw

Laying in bed watching Videos may not be the best training but it probably is better than nothing?

It is amazing how much one forgets over time. Not the big things so much as the small refined touches that make the difference between being just O.K. verses Good!
 
Yup what ^ said, anyone who's in shape, coordinated, and has the will to learn will be dangerous to anyone he chooses to fight with just from looking around on the inter webs. I think most of the guys here are internet taught.
 
As a retired guy with 22 years on the street (but not recently... retired out in 1995), the tactical training I received ranged from non-existant to very high quality. At one point in my career I was actually the guy in charge of training for a small agency for roughly three years (100 man agency in Dade county).

In my early years all of my outfit's weapons training was strictly range time, supervised by one or more local FBI types. It consisted only of time on targets, a tiny bit of legal review, and the confident statement "this will help you keep from being sued...". Years later, prodded by local events (the infamous FBI shooting disaster, a string of officer casualties, etc.) several of our firearms instructors put together a first rate officer survival course. That course was designed to graphically show every officer the real hazards they faced in an armed encounter in a variety of settings. Every officer and staff member that attended it gave it very high marks. One of the surprises was that officers that went through it had a reduced "use of force" record on the street in following years. Among the changes that the training brought about was the end of building searches by officers (using dog teams, backed by armed officers was found to be far safer in every respect), and a variety of other tactics that proved themselves in the field time and time again. The end result (during the years I was associated with it) was a greatly reduced casualty rate on both ends of the spectrum, a much more confident professional approach to hazardous encounters, etc. Armed encounters are best avoided if at all possible, if they must occur having every advantage on your side is the only way to go if you're in that business. To complement these tactics we also added a well trained tactical unit that trained constantly and was encouraged and often required when warrant service and other hazardous situations could be anticipated. Armed individuals will stand down when faced with the right level of force and superior tactics on most occasions. Those that don't are dealt with in as safe and satisfactory manner as possible. Anyone that winds up dead or injured shouldn't ever be the officer if you apply the right tactics, and that was the case with us - every time during my watch.

You're likely to encounter any level of training in police work (they range from every level
"awful to outstanding" ) but are never constant. More than one outfit has allowed its standards to lapse, and more than a few go from poor to first rate, depending on the folks that are in charge and the willingness of trainers to stay current and not accept "adequate" as a standard. Some of the things I see on one reality television show or other are just plain frightening from a tactics point of view.

And so it goes.
 
I checked yes but never had to pay for it. The military did! Nowadays doesn't seem to matter your job, you get some decent training. When my Guard unit deployed 2 years ago, I did some MOUT training, along with the finale of going through a shoothouse and me commanding a 4 man team. Fun! Also showed me that clearing a house by yourself may not be the best idea if you can help it. But if I had to, I know now some techniques. I still want to get some training with hanguns though.

Also in Hawaii you need to take a handgun safety course to be able to buy a hangun. One of the imortant elements of that class was the legal aspects. You know the current laws that apply for self defense and what not. Am I a fully trained ninja? lol nope, but I can hold my own if need be.
 
I have had training but it was never referred to as tactical. We didnt repel off roofs and swing through glass windows. It focused on muzzle safety, defenseive stances, and accurate drawing of the weapon. Also offered were classes on less lethal defense, (i.e. pepper spray, tasers, stun guns) but I wasnt interested in those. I also had to sit through the mandatory day long safety training and range day required to recieve a concealed handgun permit in my state.

FWIW I troll MAGPUL fanboys on youtube in a tactical and DYNAMIC manner.
 
One more "thumbs up" vote for commercial shooting school training. I've had coaching from the famous (Ayoob, Hamilton) as well as a fair bit more from less well-known, but excellent, regional folks. All has been worth every penny. Moreover, I try to get to at least two weekend courses a year. Not much by wannabe standards, perhaps, but more than most shooters.

The only thing that i'd add is to reinforce the idea of using the correct tool for the job. The recent seminar that I went to with a sitting prosecuting attorney and an experienced private defense attorney discussing both sides of self defense shootings did no more to prepare me for searching houses in Iraq than searching houses in Iraq would prepare me for the legalities of a self defense shooting in an American mall parking lot.

More input and experience (assuming qualified instruction) is always better, IMHO. I'd much rather take a redundant class than buy another redundant gun (my obsession with the now-retired S&W K-frames cluttering up my safe shelves notwithstanding).

YMMV.
 
I'm leaning heavily toward a fundamental "draw, aim, fire, reload" type course. I'm going with a small group and I do not think that the training would be lost on anyone, so it's probably the best route to take IMHO.
Heck no. That training would be a benefit to all of us! Never a bad idea to hammer on the fundamentals.

I'd like to how the argument would be made to convince someone that is new to firearms to attend formal training.
Not an easy question, and the answer is heavily dependent on the person you're trying to convince. Anyone who is going to entrust him/herself with safe keeping, storage, handling, and use of a deadly weapon needs to establish a very clear understanding of both best practices and what the laws are surrounding those activities. A good, experienced friend/mentor can go a long way to achieve that, but obviously very few of us (even here at THR) really are qualified to be giving out legal advice.

From the legal standpoint: If the new owner is going to do much more with the gun than transport it back and forth to the range, shoot it at paper targets, and keep it in a lock box in the closet at home -- they should understand that they face jail time if they make certain kinds of mistakes. It is serious business and they need to avail themselves of the best information and instruction.

From the practical/shooting standpoint: This is the tougher sell. Someone who is entirely new, may simply be swayed by a quick trip to the range where their faults will be somewhat apparent. ;) Telling them that they have the choice between trying to figure it out on their own for years until they've deeply ingrained their own worst habits -- or they can get a solid foundation from a knowledgeable trainer and be years ahead of the curve -- might work. Especially if you do a little money math with them regarding the cost of the ammo they'll waste trying to hit the paper. :) But there's lots of folks who saw it on TV, or are easily impressed (or depressed) with themselves and don't greatly desire to pursue "Tacticool wannabe ninja skills" with their gun, and for whom whatever they can do on their own is going to be fine by them. Can't really argue those folks into spending money on training. Teaching a pig to sing comes to mind. :D

What would you recommend the bare minimum be in a defensive handgun training course? Would you stick with a "draw, aim, fire, reload" type course? Would you go further than that at first?

All depends on the skills and confidence of the student. As you know, very few of us bought our first gun and were instantly proficient even in being able to safely draw and holster the thing. A course can lose the students if it tries to go too far, too fast. Shooting a lot of rounds, and really concentrating on where they're going and where your hands are going at the draw, and finding a sight picture, controlling the trigger, etc. is physically as well as mentally draining for folks who aren't used to doing that kind of hand-eye training. If a two-day intro-level course was to spend one whole day on safety, manipulation, holstering/draw-stroke, sight picture, and trigger control, that would be a lot for most new shooters to digest. If the second day got into a little bit of shooting while moving off the line of force, and maybe a bit of close-in retention style work, -- as well as a strenuous review of the previous day's material -- that would probably be just a bit more than a new shooter should be expected to process.

Assuming of course that they took a safety course, because most make it a pre-req anyway.
Who does? I don't think most states require any kind of a course for purchase of a pistol. I think maybe half do for a CCW license/permit. They usually aren't worth much as a shooting class, though some of them do a good job on the local laws.

I know Sam recommended some training on the lights, I'm just not seeing it in the shorter courses, but I do agree.
No, I don't see it either. It is important, but putting a new shooter in that situation is going too far, IMHO. Unfortunately, they may find themselves needing those skills at any point, but it is usually considered an "advanced" thing to teach.
 
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Here are a couple of issues that I see with instruction. ... The people that are the most likely to wade through this information probably need it the least.
Yup. That's why a word from a friend or mentor should be couched carefully. Giving the impression that this person should go out and become "tactical" is both absurd and likely to warn them OFF of your advice. Telling them that a good instructor would help them stay legal and safe -- and improve their ability to hit what they're aiming at -- might make an impression with them. We aren't trying to teach them to clear their local "major retail establishment" so why give them hype? We are trying to keep them out of jail and the hospital and trying to improve their abilities without wasting a lot of time and ammo while they suffer through the DIY version. This is realistic and makes good sense. A serious student will understand it that way.

Two, and I'm not sure if this is funny or just so frustrating that I laughed but ... If you had to give somebody advise on how to avoid that, what would you say? How would you steer them in the right direction?
Hmmm... several answers. One is that few little tiny guns are as comfortable and easy to shoot as larger versions. NOT instantly giving the little lady an airweight snubby to try out might have made some good sense. On the other hand, I'd probably have started her larger/more controllable and then worked down to the more concealable guns until she reached a level of minimum comfort. A good salesman listens to what the customer really wants/needs instead of trying to sell whatever they have on hand. But the world is full of bad salesmen! ;)

As for your friend with the 6" wheelgun? Hey, if he wants to carry it, that's his choice. He'll find out soon enough whether it is practical, I guess. There are some holsters (CABO, Simply Rugged, Hoffners) that can make that workable. (I do sometimes carry a 4" barreled 629 .44 Mag in a Hoffner's IWB rig, so don't knock it until you've tried it! :))

Why does the instructor carry a big gun? I don't know. Might be a good thing to ask him. Never be afraid to have a polite discussion about such things with your instructor. Probably the answer is, he's working at a range, and he CAN. :) Is it the most reasonable example to be setting for the businessmen and housewives that make up his clientèle? Maybe not. Maybe having that discussion with him will prompt him to include a discussion in his future classes of the sliding scale of size/power -vs.- comfort to carry and concealability.

Everyone comes to the decision to carry a gun with their own sets of baggage -- preconceived notions, favorite guns, bad habits, misunderstood legal concepts, etc. We can tear down some of the bad. We can try to reinforce the good. And some of it they'll just have to figure out on their own. Which gun they should be carrying -- IMHO -- falls into that last category. There's more important fish to fry.

E.g.: As long as he knows he must keep his finger off the trigger at all times, that he can't brandish his gun as a scare tactic, and that his state's "Castle Doctrine" doesn't mean he isn't going to go to jail for shooting a panhandler -- I don't care if he wants to try to carry a Taurus Judge or a Sherman tank. Some of those issues are critically important. And some will work themselves out over time. :)
 
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Assuming of course that they took a safety course, because most make it a pre-req anyway.

Who does? I don't think most states require any kind of a course for purchase of a pistol. I think maybe half do for a CCW license/permit. They usually aren't worth much as a shooting class, though some of them do a good job on the local laws.

Most of the instructors/schools that I have spoken with require a safety class prior to a "Defensive" course (or any course for the most part). I believe that something NRA First Steps, or an NRA safety course would suffice, so would mil/leo training. There is no state requirements though.

Which gun they should be carrying -- IMHO -- falls into that last category. There's more important fish to fry.

I agree in my friend's case, but not in my mom's. It was more about that transaction and he just piped in later. The salesman and the instructor was the same guy (just not acting in the instructor capacity), but purely coincidental, just selling and not instructing. It also wasn't his CCW, but it was his. My friend drew the correlation because he offered it as such. My friend can carry whatever he wants, and I'm sure that it will end up being a .44 because he needs an excuse to buy another gun anyway. :rolleyes: My mom on the other, I have a strong aversion to carrying or keeping a gun with cut springs and a trigger job for SD/CC regardless of the fit.

There's a lot of good info, thanks. In all fairness I should say that the majority of the schools/instructors that I spoke with were very upfront and honest about what to expect from the course. Most emphasized the same thing, draw, aim, fire, reload (all done safely). I suppose in this business reputation is everything. FWIW, the jury is still out on "which school/instructor." All of the options on the table are good IMHO, so I really don't see a downside.

The polls seem to indicate that if a person takes one course they're very likely to take follow-on courses. I have a feeling that subjects like tact lights and what-not will get covered one way or the other.

This conversation will come up again though and it can be a revolving door at times. Next go around I'll have better info :)
 
This has been a really interesting thread so far.

I have to wonder to what extent the adjective "Tactical" has impacted the tone of the responses. When I started shooting NRA Smallbore rifle as a boy, it became apparent to me pretty quickly that I developed skills faster with a good coach actively spotting and correcting my errors. Some recent stuff like Daniel Coyle's The Talent Code has really shed some light on that for me. It apparently really does make you learn faster to constantly be monitoring your mistakes and correcting in your practice, which I suspect is why all these ICORE people keep telling me shooting revolver will make me a better IDPA competitor... Keeping sight alignment through that DA trigger pull has some evil Voodoo power.

Again, "Tactical"... The reason the word has become a marketing term to conjure with is because it immediately invokes a kind of primitive survival anxiety, a "Can I win this fight?" internal dialog. Better get some Tactical pants and a Tactical sandwich maker, right there in the gift shop after the Tactical class. Everyone wants to be a better shooter, and if you asked anyone if they'd like to have an experienced coach give them some pointers, I bet they'd say "Yes!" as long as their buddies weren't around. But the whole "Tactical" thing ties your shooting to how happy you are with yourself as a human being, which is really dangerous for what is in it's pure naked essence purely a marketing initiative.
 
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