mortablunt
Member
^ I would think that it would take a bit more skill. BTW, If you've ever seen the movie, The Power of One, there is a scene where the protagonist's love interest is killed by a single baton strike to the head.
have you ever carried a baton?
- Thread starter thedrewcifur
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Unless you're facing a lethal threat- which includes a knife- baton strikes should be to fleshy body parts. It's hard to inflict brain damage on someone's thigh.
People may wait too long to draw a lethal force weapon. Less-lethal options are good.
People may wait too long to draw a lethal force weapon. Less-lethal options are good.
I think some of these assertions about the shortfalls of a impact weapons are missing the point a bit.
A weapon's merit is not based on if it incapacitates the attacker immediately 100% of the time without fail. Not even bullets or TASERs can claim that. It's about whether its better than using your bare hands or feet (or elbows, knees, or forehead). Some of us cannot carry guns at all (either due to no civie CHPs in the area or if you work private security where the employer dictates the limits of armament). And for those of you that can carry a gun, you gotta remember it's deadly force, and not all situations warrant deadly force.
A weapon's merit is not based on if it incapacitates the attacker immediately 100% of the time without fail. Not even bullets or TASERs can claim that. It's about whether its better than using your bare hands or feet (or elbows, knees, or forehead). Some of us cannot carry guns at all (either due to no civie CHPs in the area or if you work private security where the employer dictates the limits of armament). And for those of you that can carry a gun, you gotta remember it's deadly force, and not all situations warrant deadly force.
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MashieNiblick
Member
The worst thing that could happen, imo, would be for a perp to initiate a life threatening, intimidating incident, a law abiding citizen pull a baton, and then the perp draw a pistol.
That's why in a real pinch, and i'd make sure it was a real pinch first, i'd forego the baton for pistol draw and strong verbage.
If you can't turn away a perp putting you in fear of your life by pulling a pistol and telling him to get down on his face while you call the cops, he deserves the bullet, not the baton. Too risky with the baton.
Cheers,
- MN
That's why in a real pinch, and i'd make sure it was a real pinch first, i'd forego the baton for pistol draw and strong verbage.
If you can't turn away a perp putting you in fear of your life by pulling a pistol and telling him to get down on his face while you call the cops, he deserves the bullet, not the baton. Too risky with the baton.
Cheers,
- MN
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wheelgunslinger
Member
I think you're missing the point we're making.
Wow, MashieNiblick, that is in the running for the worst advice I've seen on THR.
For the typical civilian citizen, a firearm should only be drawn if the citizen is in fear for his life, and drawing should immediately be followed by firing. Because you're IN FEAR FOR YOUR LIFE. Drawing your handgun is actually illegal in most states unless you are in fear for your life.
The armed citizen is not the police. He has no duty to hold a potential attacker, and can even face charges if he does so.
I strongly suggest you get some expert training before you carry a handgun. Or give advice.
John
For the typical civilian citizen, a firearm should only be drawn if the citizen is in fear for his life, and drawing should immediately be followed by firing. Because you're IN FEAR FOR YOUR LIFE. Drawing your handgun is actually illegal in most states unless you are in fear for your life.
The armed citizen is not the police. He has no duty to hold a potential attacker, and can even face charges if he does so.
I strongly suggest you get some expert training before you carry a handgun. Or give advice.
John
MashieNiblick
Member
JShirley,
Thank you for your reply. As an Admin, i respect your responses and insights very much.
That said, if i ever find myself in fear of my life and need to draw my pistol on a perp, if i can get away without having to kill another human by calling 911, i will.
i am not sure if you have ever taken a human life before, or if you are just talking tough without having experienced such a situation. I understand it is a very difficult thing to deal with afterward- even by professional LEO's and professional soldiers. Acting tough about it after the fact only goes so far. Usually PTSD follows. Therefore, i choose not to take something like this lightly.
If i ever come to the point of having to draw- damn straight bet your ass i'll pull the trigger in a double tap if need be, however if this could at all be avoided, i would do so.
I really have no idea where you are coming from???
P.S. Why would one pull a baton if not in fear of one's life? I was assuming we were already at that point.
- MN
Thank you for your reply. As an Admin, i respect your responses and insights very much.
That said, if i ever find myself in fear of my life and need to draw my pistol on a perp, if i can get away without having to kill another human by calling 911, i will.
i am not sure if you have ever taken a human life before, or if you are just talking tough without having experienced such a situation. I understand it is a very difficult thing to deal with afterward- even by professional LEO's and professional soldiers. Acting tough about it after the fact only goes so far. Usually PTSD follows. Therefore, i choose not to take something like this lightly.
If i ever come to the point of having to draw- damn straight bet your ass i'll pull the trigger in a double tap if need be, however if this could at all be avoided, i would do so.
I really have no idea where you are coming from???
P.S. Why would one pull a baton if not in fear of one's life? I was assuming we were already at that point.
- MN
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MashieNiblick
Member
Also, i am not sure where you are from, or where you live, but i live in a pretty nice area for our locale, and if i take myself out my front door for a 5 or 6 mile walk for general excercise, 2 times out of 3 i will be approached, threatened, perhaps a gun pull feign from within an auto by some gangstarr's a few dog rushes, maybe some old people threatening to kick my ass, etc. . .
If i were to follow your advice, and draw every time my life was threatened, and pull the trigger immediately after, there'd be a whole lot more dead people and animals around here.
Again, i am not sure where you are from, but please do not make assumptions of me, my locale, my experience, or lack thereof.
That's just reality for some us- not punched up at all. . .
Cheers!
- MN
If i were to follow your advice, and draw every time my life was threatened, and pull the trigger immediately after, there'd be a whole lot more dead people and animals around here.
Again, i am not sure where you are from, but please do not make assumptions of me, my locale, my experience, or lack thereof.
That's just reality for some us- not punched up at all. . .
Cheers!
- MN
As a combat vet who was on a fire support team- meaning, in bluntest terms, that I've blown apart not only the enemy, but also some noncombatants he hid behind- I know a bit about the realities of death. Also, as someone who guards military bases on my civilian job, I've had lethal and less-lethal training as part of my job training, as well as on my own as a civilian.
Batons are not considered lethal/deadly force unless you strike what some call the "red zone"- the head and central skeletal system. The place for a baton is when attacked by an unarmed assailant, so you can dominate the situation WITHOUT resorting to deadly force. If a weapon like a knife is in play, that is a lethal threat, and a baton is the wrong answer-unless you're already holding the baton and too close to draw your sidearm. At that point, if facing a knife at very close range, potentially lethal strikes (such as to the temple) would be permissible. Really, good training would help.
Taking a life is a serious thing, not something to be taken lightly. On the other hand, a lot of ridiculous notions have been attached to killing by our culture. As an officer with a history degree, I've done a lot of research on PTSD/combat stress. PTSD seems to be more a product of having been in fear for your life than of having killed. Since my killing was done at longer ranges, and my mortar team was much better than the enemy fire, I sleep just fine.
"Old people threatening to kick your ass" and dog rushes are two situations where a baton or OC would be about perfect. The former is definitely NOT a lethal threat, and I hope you're not offering it as such.
John
Batons are not considered lethal/deadly force unless you strike what some call the "red zone"- the head and central skeletal system. The place for a baton is when attacked by an unarmed assailant, so you can dominate the situation WITHOUT resorting to deadly force. If a weapon like a knife is in play, that is a lethal threat, and a baton is the wrong answer-unless you're already holding the baton and too close to draw your sidearm. At that point, if facing a knife at very close range, potentially lethal strikes (such as to the temple) would be permissible. Really, good training would help.
Taking a life is a serious thing, not something to be taken lightly. On the other hand, a lot of ridiculous notions have been attached to killing by our culture. As an officer with a history degree, I've done a lot of research on PTSD/combat stress. PTSD seems to be more a product of having been in fear for your life than of having killed. Since my killing was done at longer ranges, and my mortar team was much better than the enemy fire, I sleep just fine.
"Old people threatening to kick your ass" and dog rushes are two situations where a baton or OC would be about perfect. The former is definitely NOT a lethal threat, and I hope you're not offering it as such.
John
MashieNiblick
Member
Killing from considerable distance, while hearing or seeing boom, without seeing one's enemies within a sight scope or similar is not something i have had experience with, so i can not talk to that nor its after effects or lack thereof.
i would be lying if said that 2 out of 3 walks and the continuing threats associated with them do not take a toll over time, however there are guys that act Tough who sometimes run, and there are guys that act Tough that sometimes hide. The man who walks the streets for considerable time bowing to noone, and does not run nor hide does not usually fit within the architypical Tough Guy Personna- Especially the ones usually as seen by the general public on the big screen and tele. The architypical Tough Guys don't typically last that long when things get real.
i wish things were different, and welcome the thought of them becoming so, however i will not run and will not hide from threats or let them deter me from excercising around town.
that said, i'd be pretty stupid to pull out my baton on a thug or anything other than an offending canine while on the street- Non-red zone strikes or not. That is quite obviously just asking for trouble- maybe immediate, but most certainly in the future- if not from them then from some of their buddies. i do not wear a badge and currently am not living on or working at a military base.
i just heard a radio bid for F.F. Fitness Gym. Red and Blue sign, btw. $10 a month and no contract. what's the good of hiding on a treadmill in a gym while there is fresh air and sunshine outside?
military police training or quite frankly the typical handgun self defense course are bad models for one to use for self defense on long threatening walks in town.
there's something to be said for street smarts and the oldest university found within American- the School of Hard Knocks.
again, the context of one's operating environment is a requirement in a discussion such as this.
Cheers!
- MN
i would be lying if said that 2 out of 3 walks and the continuing threats associated with them do not take a toll over time, however there are guys that act Tough who sometimes run, and there are guys that act Tough that sometimes hide. The man who walks the streets for considerable time bowing to noone, and does not run nor hide does not usually fit within the architypical Tough Guy Personna- Especially the ones usually as seen by the general public on the big screen and tele. The architypical Tough Guys don't typically last that long when things get real.
i wish things were different, and welcome the thought of them becoming so, however i will not run and will not hide from threats or let them deter me from excercising around town.
that said, i'd be pretty stupid to pull out my baton on a thug or anything other than an offending canine while on the street- Non-red zone strikes or not. That is quite obviously just asking for trouble- maybe immediate, but most certainly in the future- if not from them then from some of their buddies. i do not wear a badge and currently am not living on or working at a military base.
i just heard a radio bid for F.F. Fitness Gym. Red and Blue sign, btw. $10 a month and no contract. what's the good of hiding on a treadmill in a gym while there is fresh air and sunshine outside?
military police training or quite frankly the typical handgun self defense course are bad models for one to use for self defense on long threatening walks in town.
there's something to be said for street smarts and the oldest university found within American- the School of Hard Knocks.
again, the context of one's operating environment is a requirement in a discussion such as this.
Cheers!
- MN
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I'm having a bit of a hard time deciphering what you mean by some of your previous post, but I'm pretty sure you suggested quality handgun courses were not helpful. While I wish you well, I'm pretty sure experts give expert advice. Further, I'm pretty sure what I'm saying is the opposite of Tough Guy Talk: don't confront an attacker with your bare hands, use a tool; draw your handgun if in fear for your life if you can't reasonably retreat; firearms are tools, not magic icons that suddenly make people compliant.
Again, I strongly suggest you get some quality training. An NRA-certified handgun instructor would be a good place to start.
Again, I strongly suggest you get some quality training. An NRA-certified handgun instructor would be a good place to start.
MashieNiblick
Member
i would say that it isn't wise for you to make assumptions such as:
1. my saying that it is unwise for inexperienced, civilian, or typical handgun users not to take a course such as you described
2. i have not taken handgun courses- safety or otherwise
3. i accused you of Tough guy talk
4. i said to confront an attacker with bare hands
5. i called a handgun a magic compliance icon
You should really check yourself at this point.
this whole discussion has taken many decidedly Low Road and undisciplined turns undue to any input on my part.
Thank you for wishing me well. I wish you same- at your base, on the street, or anywhere otherwise.
Best Regards,
- MN
1. my saying that it is unwise for inexperienced, civilian, or typical handgun users not to take a course such as you described
2. i have not taken handgun courses- safety or otherwise
3. i accused you of Tough guy talk
4. i said to confront an attacker with bare hands
5. i called a handgun a magic compliance icon
You should really check yourself at this point.
this whole discussion has taken many decidedly Low Road and undisciplined turns undue to any input on my part.
Thank you for wishing me well. I wish you same- at your base, on the street, or anywhere otherwise.
Best Regards,
- MN
Well, I definitely prefer even untrue bullet points to vague rambling, so thanks for that.
To everyone else: more options in your defensive toolbox are good. Batons are not legal everywhere. Check your local laws. If it fits your lifestyle, a cane is longer than any expandable baton, and will have the advantage of already being in your hand. Get some training for whatever tools you choose.
John
To everyone else: more options in your defensive toolbox are good. Batons are not legal everywhere. Check your local laws. If it fits your lifestyle, a cane is longer than any expandable baton, and will have the advantage of already being in your hand. Get some training for whatever tools you choose.
John
Texas Gun Person
Member
Carrying a baton is a class A misdemeanor in Texas.
I would carry one if it was not for some of this states great laws.
Guns are fine. Sticks are not.
I would carry one if it was not for some of this states great laws.
Guns are fine. Sticks are not.
Anyone that has been around here awhile probably remembers that I've had to deal with being attacked "on the street" 3 times (multiple; oversized; and attempted stabbing) and that I've never had time to deploy a firearm in any of those cases nor have I killed any of my attackers.
If you've been around long enough to remember that you probably also know that I'm a big advocate of having more than one tool available to deal with a self defense situation since not all problems require the same solution and not all tools work in every self defense situation.
And if you remember all that, you probably remember that I'm an even bigger advocate of self defense training and training in a variety of means of self defense. Train in hand to hand, knife, stick, chemical and anything else that you intend to use when awareness and avoidance and deescalation and the first tool used fails to work.
Being dependent on just one way to deal with self defense problems is handicapping yourself to treating the continuum of self defense problems as one problem. Not all self defense problems require lethal force as a response (I killed none of my attackers in spite of the potential that I would have been severely injured or killed in at least one case) and not all of those situations are solved with the first tool used.
Being dependent upon one tool to address all SD problems is handicapping yourself and using that tool as a crutch.
For those of you that think that you don't have time or fitness or youth to do this I'll also point out that I'm a short overweight 54 year old with high blood pressure and 3 knee surgeries to my "credit" with a 13 year old daughter at home and I still take time and spend the money for training.
If you've been around long enough to remember that you probably also know that I'm a big advocate of having more than one tool available to deal with a self defense situation since not all problems require the same solution and not all tools work in every self defense situation.
And if you remember all that, you probably remember that I'm an even bigger advocate of self defense training and training in a variety of means of self defense. Train in hand to hand, knife, stick, chemical and anything else that you intend to use when awareness and avoidance and deescalation and the first tool used fails to work.
Being dependent on just one way to deal with self defense problems is handicapping yourself to treating the continuum of self defense problems as one problem. Not all self defense problems require lethal force as a response (I killed none of my attackers in spite of the potential that I would have been severely injured or killed in at least one case) and not all of those situations are solved with the first tool used.
Being dependent upon one tool to address all SD problems is handicapping yourself and using that tool as a crutch.
For those of you that think that you don't have time or fitness or youth to do this I'll also point out that I'm a short overweight 54 year old with high blood pressure and 3 knee surgeries to my "credit" with a 13 year old daughter at home and I still take time and spend the money for training.
Owen Sparks
member
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If you carry a cane you are in effect using a crutch as a tool (a weapon).
A heavy stick in your left hand can buy you some time if you have to hold off a gang of bad guys while drawing your pistol.
PlateStacker
Member
- Joined
- Apr 22, 2011
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If anyone is considering purchasing a Baton, I would defiantly avoid the cheap ones. Most the cheap ones I've seen have a diamond type design on the grips and grips are made of plastic/rubber. They are all over the place, especially at gun shows and are really inexpensive.. usually 15-20 bucks. I got one as a gift one time and ended up bending it on a BG's thigh the first time using it and was ruined. Also heard stories of them flying into pieces when deployed.
The good ones usually have a foam grip and are name branded. They are much more expensive than the cheapys, but very much worth it.
The good ones usually have a foam grip and are name branded. They are much more expensive than the cheapys, but very much worth it.
+1 to that. My good friend who worked with me back in the day almost learned this the hard way. He got one for $20 at the army/navy store and carried it for a while on the job. Thing bent after just a few training sessions and our attempts to fix it just made it worse due to metal fatigue. Rubbish steel. I should add the warning that it had a foam grip nearly identical to an ASP. You could only tell by touching it that it was a fake.
bigger hammer
Member
I carried a baton for every day of my nearly 30 year career that I worked the street. I wouldn't have been without it. Most of the time it was a 26" piece of second growth hickory that had been carried by two officers before me. I wore it in the car so when I got out, it was always with me. Any rookies that I trained had to have their baton with them when we were out of the car. If I caught them without it, they got to chase it as far as I could throw it.
For awhile we went to the side handle baton which I carried (but hated). Then it became optional. We could carry either one. They didn't get the collapsible until I left but I'd have stayed with wood.
I can't count the number of times it saved me from getting my ass kicked by bigger, stronger crooks. Many times I was outnumbered and again, it saved me. But like the rest of the gear that an officer carries, one must be properly trained with it in the first place and then one must practice regularly. I was trained in the Koga method and it never let me down.
For awhile we went to the side handle baton which I carried (but hated). Then it became optional. We could carry either one. They didn't get the collapsible until I left but I'd have stayed with wood.
I can't count the number of times it saved me from getting my ass kicked by bigger, stronger crooks. Many times I was outnumbered and again, it saved me. But like the rest of the gear that an officer carries, one must be properly trained with it in the first place and then one must practice regularly. I was trained in the Koga method and it never let me down.
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