I used to get asked this question a lot when I was working. Over the period of 50 plus years I actually had 2 people take my advise. It worked for both of them but the others took what the gun store clerks were selling and some did not turn out so well. I’m reminded of asking my Father what I should do one time and he said, “I think you should do what you damn well please because that’s what you’ll do anyways.” So that being said, the Mossberg 500 is fine. Get a 20 not a 12. DO NOT keep the damn thing loaded with kids around. Keep the action open and the safety on and the shells in the night stand. That way you can just drop a shell in the chamber and close it while loading the magazine. Better still for the absolute novice, a Stoeger SxS in 20. Open load shoot. Repeat as necessary. No “pumpy thingy” to figure out in the dark. As far as handguns, if just in the night stand, Ruger Mark series. I know, only a .22, but we’re talking novice here. 10 hits with a .22 beats 10 misses with a 9 and it’s simple to operate. Keep the clip separate and it’s a snap to load unload and it has a safety. If it’s a CCW weapon Shield .380 ez is nice but try to find ammo. Just my 2 c.
HD Pistol and Shotgun advice.
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These type of threads are always interesting because of the diversity of the replies. IMO it is near impossible to answer with specific gun recommendations as there are several good answers, but they need to be fitted to the individual you are attempting to mate to the guns. I will simply say a couple things that come to mind. First is that any gun is better than harsh words for self defense .(brilliant perspective right ?). I always agree that training is a positive. I also believe the dedication to practice is a factor in choosing the correct firearm. Fit and ergonomics are important and that means the body characteristics of the individual is a significant factor.
Gauge and caliber are not as important as many think. Many folks think the 12 gauge is the only shotgun worth having, but in HD where ranges are short the 20 gauge with 2&3/4" number 3 buckshot puts out an energy at the muzzle close to a pair of .357 magnum slugs. (is that not enough?) in handgun calibers the loadings should have enough penetration to reach vital organs. Putting the bullet where it needs to be is more of a factor than in stopping a bad guy than what caliber you choose.
Pump or semi auto shotgun , revolver or semi auto handgun , the first 2 or 3 shots are the most important on each single bad guy out of a handgun. 1 well placed shot from a shotgun will generally be all that's needed. I want to say a semi auto shotgun and a revolver handgun is my choice, but that is open to argument. These are my thoughts for whatever they are worth. Practice, practice, and more practice is what I recommend as being one of the most valuable aspects of having any firearm for SD, and mind set is right up there as well. Hesitation at the wrong time will make you lose. All of the above is simply my personal thoughts and I give no warranty on them.
Gauge and caliber are not as important as many think. Many folks think the 12 gauge is the only shotgun worth having, but in HD where ranges are short the 20 gauge with 2&3/4" number 3 buckshot puts out an energy at the muzzle close to a pair of .357 magnum slugs. (is that not enough?) in handgun calibers the loadings should have enough penetration to reach vital organs. Putting the bullet where it needs to be is more of a factor than in stopping a bad guy than what caliber you choose.
Pump or semi auto shotgun , revolver or semi auto handgun , the first 2 or 3 shots are the most important on each single bad guy out of a handgun. 1 well placed shot from a shotgun will generally be all that's needed. I want to say a semi auto shotgun and a revolver handgun is my choice, but that is open to argument. These are my thoughts for whatever they are worth. Practice, practice, and more practice is what I recommend as being one of the most valuable aspects of having any firearm for SD, and mind set is right up there as well. Hesitation at the wrong time will make you lose. All of the above is simply my personal thoughts and I give no warranty on them.
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I remember these wise words whenever we get in a newbie what gun thread:
A thought for today from John Holschen:
Amateurs think (or talk) equipment,
Students think techniques,
Masters think tactics!
An example, the French had the Chassepot rifle which was so superior the Prussian needle gun. It cost the Prussians most of their casualities. The French had their clocks cleaned.
A thought for today from John Holschen:
Amateurs think (or talk) equipment,
Students think techniques,
Masters think tactics!
An example, the French had the Chassepot rifle which was so superior the Prussian needle gun. It cost the Prussians most of their casualities. The French had their clocks cleaned.
Legionnaire
Contributing Member
Tactics. That's the reason my HD shotgun is a Mossberg 500 20 gauge with an 18.5-inch barrel and a youth stock ... even though I'm 6'1". Try moving around in your house with a full-sized shotgun. Not claiming to be a master, but after training with a 590 for a while, I decided the short 20 was the better option.
I bought a Winchester 1300 Defender after I was invited to a shotgun class by a well known trainer friend. Then I took a Tom Givens shotgun class and shot the gun in competition. I regard the training as necessary for competent use of the gun. Same with handguns, took a class before I bought, kept doing that. Carry a snubby - took Claude Werner's snubby class, shot it quite a few times in other classes and matches.
That's what we should tell the guy in the OP - take a class first! If you had to recommend something in extremis - yeah, something like a SW Model 10. Don't carry unless you train on the tactics, legality, etc.
Do folks do that all the time - yep - I'm just speaking to the best advice.
That's what we should tell the guy in the OP - take a class first! If you had to recommend something in extremis - yeah, something like a SW Model 10. Don't carry unless you train on the tactics, legality, etc.
Do folks do that all the time - yep - I'm just speaking to the best advice.
FAS1
Member
My preference for a shotgun is a semi-auto. Mine is a Beretta 1201FP w/ Choate stock and 20" barrel. 6+1+1 capacity. I don't have a lot of experience with a pump so I'm not very confident that I wouldn't short stroke it.
Except in very rare circumstances of extreme necessity, a defender should not be "moving around his house" with a firearm in the event of trouble.
Let no one take that advice literally.
Legionnaire
Contributing Member
I don't disagree. Nevertheless, I like the handiness of the youth-stocked 20 gauge.
So do I. Much easier to handle in close quarters indoors.
Got a carbine and shotgun ready to go (safely) but I prefer the carbine. Experience with both. I see the shotgun in case the neighborhood bear wants our pumpkin pie (joke). He hasn't been seen lately. The law had to take one down in 2018, nearby.
Ernie Bass
member
Have the same 20ga 18" with all the stocks.
Didn’t even think of a double barrel. I think that in a 20ga would be his absolute best bet. Not knocking anyone of faith but this man is probably the most hardcore Christian I have ever met. I have to admit I was absolutely shocked when he called and asked me to meet him to talk guns. I honestly don’t think he could pull the trigger if he had to. I think this more just a piece of mind thing. I recommend taking a ccw class taught by police or military even if he doesn’t want to ccw. We don’t have much of training classes around here other than ccw classes.
entropy
Member
SqzdontJerk
Member
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I'm not a fan of tang safety's, as the recoil of buckshot will send that tang ripping thru the webbing of your hand. I have (and LOVE) my Maverick 88 with 18" barrel and pistol grip for HD. Keep an empty chamber for safety's sake, and because the sound of that bad boy being racked is UNIVERSAL LANGUAGE. You have just announced your intent, and if they choose not to scurry right back out the window, you have cause to defend yourself. As for pistol, SW MP or Sigma, or HD are cheap, reliable, easy to learn to use with competence.
Detritus
Member
This thread resurrected my disappointment that neither Remington nor Mossberg make the HD shotgun that I want and think there would be a decent market for, if only they'd put forth the effort to promote the concept.
Both companies seem to think that high capacity HD shotguns are only viable on the market in 12ga. what I'd like to see are factory versions of the Rem 870, 11-87, and mossberg 590, with 20" barrels and 8+1 capacity in 20ga. Instead of such a configuration being either in no way doable (Mossberg) or a case of "buy 20ga with 20" barrel hunt hunt for appropriate Mag extension at stupid high price". What i REALLY want are either an 11-87 "hardwood home defense" or a 590 retrograde setup in 20ga.
Both companies seem to think that high capacity HD shotguns are only viable on the market in 12ga. what I'd like to see are factory versions of the Rem 870, 11-87, and mossberg 590, with 20" barrels and 8+1 capacity in 20ga. Instead of such a configuration being either in no way doable (Mossberg) or a case of "buy 20ga with 20" barrel hunt hunt for appropriate Mag extension at stupid high price". What i REALLY want are either an 11-87 "hardwood home defense" or a 590 retrograde setup in 20ga.
Ks5shooter
Contributing Member
My HD dynamic duo............
Charlie Martinez
Member
I just finished "helping" a good friend that asked the exact same question. I recommended a 9mm mid to full sized pistol or a 357 Mag/38 Special revolver with a 3"-4" barrel. My reasons for recommending these guns is that they are much more practical and fun to practice with at the range & practice is what a new gun owner needs most.
He went to a gun shop & walked away with a DA only snub nose 38 Special revolver & now wants a pump action 12 Ga. If he ever goes to the range when I'm there with my shooting buddies he's going to want to participate in our friendly shooting matches but with a DA only snubie he's going to have a difficult time keeping up.
He went to a gun shop & walked away with a DA only snub nose 38 Special revolver & now wants a pump action 12 Ga. If he ever goes to the range when I'm there with my shooting buddies he's going to want to participate in our friendly shooting matches but with a DA only snubie he's going to have a difficult time keeping up.
I've browsed through most of the replies, I agree with EVERYTHING that has been said to the effect that they need some hands on experience. I recently had a good co-worker present a similar question to me. We took out a small arsenal. Another friend joined with another small arsenal. Summary: they entered with a preconception that they wanted a cheap shotgun and pistol combo and that the wife wanted nothing to do with an ar15. They left completely ruling out shotguns (we had a 590, sa20 youth, ar12). They decided on a small selection of handguns and an ar15 as their perfect fit. They ran everything we had from micro .380s to 1911s in semiautomatic, and in revolvers we ran a stallion .38, 7.62x(can't remember, russian) and put both .38 and full house loads through my sp101 4.2". The ar and sp101 were in the top 2 spots for consideration. Others in the high cap also made the list but not as high as those two.
Classic has the 4" ria .38 back in stock iirc, that loaded with a buffalo bore 110 Barnes would be nothing to laugh at if there's a budget in question.
Ultimately, the decision would be better served if they had a more clear concept of what they did and didn't like.
entropy
Member
The 'snick' of a safety does the same thing, and that way you have one more round.
Phaedrus/69
Member
That's great advice! Still, you have to acknowledge that starting with a class from a top instructor before choosing a gun might not be practical in the midst of a global pandemic. Perhaps the OP should have started sooner or whatnot, but that's water under the bridge.
I would love to be able to take Werner's class! I'm not sure if he's still teaching it? I have his snubby video and some books he wrote. From what I hear Greg Ellifritz' snubby class is maybe the next best option.
RickD427
Member
There's a lot of wisdom in the above post, and on that note, I observe that most postings in this thread have addressed equipment.
But before one can be a "Master", you gotta move through the stages of being an amateur and a student. Nobody enters the game as a master. (and by the way, I'm not claiming to be a "master." I'm speaking from the perspective of 35+ years of military and LEO experience, having reviewed hundreds of shootings, having been the on-scene supervisor at more than 20 deputy-involved shootings, and as one who is still working on mastering the subject).
Handguns are carried for convenience. They're small, compact, and easily pointable compared to long guns, but they're also generally do not produce an immediate incapacitation and the terminal ballistics of handgun rounds are far less than those from long guns. With that quality of terminal ballistics, shot placement from a handgun is far more determinative of outcome that is caliber, bullet characteristic, or weapon type. Forget about arguing whether the Glock 19 or a 1911 is a better choice, all that discussion does is cement you in the amateur category. Cops carry handguns because they should always be on the belt when needed, but when armed conflict becomes predictable, they go for the shotgun or carbine. There's good reason for that.
Defensive weapons should be kept simple, and intuitive. Every added gadget is one more thing to go wrong, and one more thing for you to forget under the extreme stress of a shooting situation. At the ranges involved in home defense engagements, they not necessary. Every rule has an exception, and I'm inclined to make an exception for a light source. I'd prefer to keep the light source away from the weapon, but that limits your mobility and there are a lot of good weapon lights out there. You need to ID your target and you can't do that in the dark.
I'm "old school" and prefer the shotgun. With #4 Buck, you get 24-27 "Bullets" downrange with every pull of the trigger. One impact with a shotgun blast will be more immediately incapacitating that a single round fired from any other weapon.
But carbines are also becoming popular. A well placed round will likely be immediately incapacitating, and you can carry more rounds.
Long guns have a tradeoff of "pointability" vs "handling." When you start firing a number of rounds, that pistol-grip shotgun is gonna show some drawbacks (and I'll bet that you're gonna start shooting over your target). A stock helps a lot, but makes your weapon less maneuverable. Suspects tend to move fast and even faster when they think they're about to get shot. You need to make sure that you can control your weapon with similar speed.
There were two signs that my agency's range training facility that summarized a lot of thoughts in just a few words: "Speed is good, but accuracy is final. You need to learn to take your time in a hurry." and "Fear the man who owns just one rifle, he likely knows how to use it."
The second quote illustrates the need to train with whatever weapon you choose. Train to the point that the weapon's operation, and manner of clearing casualties becomes intuitive. Then you don't gotta worry about whether the safety is on the tang, or trigger guard and you gotta worry if the recoil of a 12 gauge is more problematic than a 20 gauge. You'll be used to it all.
Then start thinking about how you would employ your new skills in the defense of your home. Study shootings that have occurred, and how the involved folks reacted. Then play a couple of "mental gymnastic" exercises applying the same to your home.
Then keep it all up because these are perishable skills.
Hangingrock
Member
Most individuals have never handled a shotgun and or fired one in the confines of a indoor hallway with adjacent room entrances. (approxmently 36" width of hallway)
entropy
Member
Or it's all he could afford, takes it out of the closet right before hunting season and maybe gets to the range Friday before leaving for deer camp. So though I understand the sentiment, it's not the best way to put it. Besides, a good tactician learns to use any weaponry he or she may encounter in the field.
Any firearm shot inside is LOUD, even a .22. My ears rang for quite a while from a 110gr. Super-Vel from an S&W 49 fired indoors. It will be the least of your concerns at the moment, however.
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