HD Shotgun for 16 year old girl, advice?

[Sergeant Sabre]

Good call on the double. Inexpensive, short, easy to load, and easy to operate. Reduced recoil (sometimes called "tactical") buckshot is very effective, and really does have a reduced recoil. Two barrels full of 00 should do the job just fine.

 

[gp911]

You're going to get a ton of answers on this, so here's my 2 cents:

Training with the gun is very important, and I would include having her shoot a few rounds without ear protection so she knows what she is in for. If the noise startles her so much she drops the gun and the bad guy isn't finished she's in for a world of hurt, so best to give her an idea how loud a gun really is.

If you have a variety of guns let her try them and see what she prefers, as she may find a longarm awkward but love a revolver, or vice versa.

Recoil is very important. A short double in 12ga. generally kicks hard, and if it doesn't fit her it will be even worse. A pump shotgun requires a little training so she won't short-shuck or forget a step.

I would also consider a .410 loaded with 5 pellet buck. This load has proven itself in my personal experience across several guns. I'd avoid the pistol grip only shotguns due to their somewhat awkward handling characteristics, as even a .410 can hurt the wrist if held wrong.

If handguns are more to HER liking then the aforementioned .38/.357 is a good idea.

A semi-auto .22 will do in a pinch since she can dump ammo into the target quickly, but it isn't my 1st (or 2nd) choice.

Lastly, MINDSET IS AS IMPORTANT AS THE HARDWARE.

gp911

 

[RobertFBurnett]

Lastly, MINDSET IS AS IMPORTANT AS THE HARDWARE.

+1 and www.corneredcat.com is required reading on this subject.

After reading the posts and thinking about it i'm not really sure a shotgun is the best choice, I think a .38 (most any revolver) or a good 9mm (Glock 19 or even a used SIG P6) would be much more useful.

Also someone mentioned a dog, a big dog, 75 pounds of happy licking German Shepard with its paws on your shoulder is enough for me, I never want to be on the bad side of one.

My $0.02 and best wishes,

RFB

 

[Sergeant Sabre]

I disagree with the handgun for an inexperienced shooter. Handguns are hard to score hits with under stress even for experienced shooters. How many dash-cam videos have we seen where a cop and bad guy exchange magazines at close range and both come up with no hits? (Or very few, considering the over all round count)

If she's willing to put in the range time and class time to get good with a handgun, so be it. I think the new shooter takes to being effective with the shotgun much quicker.

 

[Curiousity]

Hello i really thank you all for chiming in, this all has been very helpful. She specifically said she did not want a handgun or revolver. She wants something big that can also scare them she saw and shotgun and said its perfect, she is not planning on using it just to hold it in a locked room while the cops get there and if the need should arise she would have a 20 gauge ready by her side.

Its perfect i think. All the people that recommended the 20 thanks.it suits her perfectly.

I tried convincing her for a simple revolver but she wants a shotgun. So 20 gauge it is. Still trying to find one.

Dont know between the youth model or just a regular 18" 20 gauge.

 

[shadowalker]

It sounds like she may be better off with a dog, very well secured house and multiple escape routes AND not being left alone. Her parents should make arrangements for her to be at another person's house or have a responsible adult with her at all times. She should have a cell phone and OC, I'm not a huge believer in it but it is better than nothing.

Train her not to depend on a firearm scaring anyone, there is no guarantee the display of a firearm or the racking of a shotgun is going to cause the bad guy to leave, she needs to be fully prepared to shoot, if she isn't prepared to use it she is better off not having it. A lot of men seem to believe they have a high chance of being able to take a firearm away from a female without being shot.

Take her to the range, several times, she needs to develop muscle memory and feel 100% comfortable with it. Eventually shoot at something other than bullseye targets, silhouette and photo targets are pretty readily available.

If choosing a shotgun I would go with a youth or short barrel 12 ga over a 20 ga, reduced recoil buck shot or slugs in a 12 ga is very controllable and hard to beat and there are far more ammo choices.

Do not use bird shot, even at 3 yards with #4 shot it lacks the performance necessary to force an attacker to stop . Don't get me wrong, the attacker may "choose" to stop after being shot with bird shot but it is almost certainly exactly that, a choice and they also may choose to continue attacking. Anything capable of penetrating the BG enough to stop him is going to penetrate walls and lots of other things in the case of a miss.

There are a ton of ballistic and shooting reports out there showing very clearly that birdshot does not work for defense against human sized animals. Yes head shots may work but even well trained shooters can have trouble pulling them off. Additionally head shots can face more mental resistance than center mass shots and she may not have the mental fortitude to shoot multiple times.

She is most likely going to have time for 1 or 2 shots, better that they be effective.

I also would not use a .22, although .22s can be effective their performance leaves much to be desired and there are far better choices.

 

[Jimmy Newman]

she is not planning on using it just to hold it in a locked room while the cops get there

If one is going to keep a firearm for defense, then it is critical that one be willing and able to use said firearm. Pulling a gun on someone and not being able to pull the trigger can make a bad situation horrible.

I'm not an expert by any means, but every trainer I have any respect for has said the same thing.

 

[woof]

I have to come down with something lighter than a shotgun. Unless she gets a lot of practice with it you might have a gun that she is afraid of. And do you have any idea what a shotgun sounds like indoors? She could have both eardrums broken. I'd suggest something like a small frame .38 special revolver, or a .380 auto

 

[publiuss]

How about a .20 gauge 1100. Just go out out put a couple of boxes of shells through it for practice and to verify functioning.

 

[shadowalker]

Here is some interesting information regarding noise.

A 18 inch shotgun is around 156 dB, a 9mm is 160 dB and a .380 is 157.7 so both 9mm and .380 should be significantly louder.

Ballistic tests show tactical or reduced recoil 2 3/4 buckshot is more than sufficient for self defense, reduced recoil buckshot showed 22.3 inches of penetration in gelatin. The FBI recommends a minimum of 12 with up to 18 inches being preferred.

 

[Guillermo]

A good dog is wonderful to have, no doubt. A good gun better.

Those that said that competence is the best thing. I would teach her to use a good 12 gauge (Mossberg or Remington). Make sure that it fits her properly. Get her to practice until she can handle a 3inch magnum. I like 4 shot in a house.

Also I would insist that she takes a self defense class. RADS is outstanding and often taught for free on college campuses. Usually they are open to any female. (http://www.rad-systems.com/)

In addition, work on different scenarios in the house, helping her find fall back positions, good spots with cover and concealment, etc. A cell phone on her person as much as possible is also a good idea.

Walk around the house as though you were a gremlin. Where can you see in? Where can you hide? Where would you break in?

The main thing is that she needs to develop good security habits. (look through the peephole before she walks out, keep doors locked.)

 

[shadowalker]

Woops, double post.

 

[All4eyes]

I would go with the 20 also, and make her take a few classes before shooting. Being scared and not thinking rationally are hand in hand when you hear strange noises. Make damn sure she knows to see the target before ever pulling the trigger.

 

[JShirley]

I have to ask why a shot gun?

from the sound of it a revoler might be better in this case.

IF one can have it, a longarm is always better.

It is more powerful.

It is faster for both the first and subsequent shots for all but the most experienced shooters.

It easier to aim.

Most of these things have to do with having a stock. It is important for anyone thinking of having/using a firearm for self-defense to know that pulling the trigger may be necessary. If your friend is unwilling to point that shotgun at her attacker after he breaks through the door and pull the trigger, she needs something other than a firearm.

(And make no mistake about it: one of the biggest advantages of the firearm is dealing with a threat at distance. The best time to shoot someone breaking through a door, is as they come through the door. It sounds like she may have some misconceptions about this.)

Best Wishes,

John

 

[JNewell]

Running a repeating shotgun of any kind under high stress is actually a pretty demanding task and needs both good training and regular repetition.

Most 20s recoil as harshly, or worse, than a 12 fed low-recoil ammo. Having said that, the old 1100 youth synthetic might not be a bad choice.

I think the comment about a double might be worth following up on. Stoeger has both sxs and o/u short barrel doubles.

 

[Guillermo]

As John said a long arm is always better. The reason we like hand guns is that they are easier to have close at hand.

When asked if he was expecting trouble because he was wearing his pistol, the old sheriff answered, "Nope. If I was expecting trouble, I'd have brought my rifle."

 

[sm]

SouthNarc

http://www.totalprotectioninteractive.com/forum/

She needs to take a class by SouthNarc of course, and Training by Givens or someone of his caliber IMO/IME.
She can become a member of TPI, where she will get REAL world Street Smarts.

Still, realizing time and money, TPI is where she needs to spend Internet time and glean from real deal folks on the streets that are familiar with VCAs
SouthNarc alone has years of experience, then add the other folks over there.

Ladies I hang with, and where they read Internet, and suggest to others, is TPI.
Another is NTI study group.

Original Post is about a 16 lady - this hits a personal nerve of mine and I take it quite serious!
I know about, and have life experiences, and observations, going back to the time I was born in mid 50's about these types of situations.

Ladies assist ladies - is a pretty good rule of thumb, that said, sometimes a lady does not want another lady to assist her.

Fact is, a lot of ladies that do assist, instruct, or train, have no real world street smarts to offer.
Yes, there are ladies that do, and these are the ones to seek out, and through SouthNarc and Givens one can find such ladies.

The "student" had to feel comfortable with whomever is assisting them.
Those assisting have to earn the trust and confidence of the student.

Often times a lady does not want another lady has primary instructor/ trainer, unless a seasoned LEO or Military Person.
Reason being, while ladies can communicate with ladies about things that are female, what the "student" wants and realizes they need, is a seasoned instructor, familiar with real life , matters they are going through or have gone through.
Street Smarts, is earned, one cannot read about it, one cannot learn from any other way, other than having been on the streets.

I have lost count of how many times I a male was the primary person assisting someone such as this 16 year lady in OP, and a lady was secondary.
Even a seasoned female LEO, or Military person was secondary.
My role...I do my thing, and I do "suggest" the student get the ladies perspective, sometimes it takes longer than others for me to "hand off" to a seasoned lady.
It depends on the student, their physical, and mental state of mind.

i.e. Sexually assaulted / rape victims have wanted me instead of another female, as they were ashamed or embarrassed as to what happened.
Think about that, they were still in grieving stages, and they did not want "comfort, compassion or consoling" from another lady.

Flip side is, some victims hate, or fear men, so they want a lady, in some situations, the ladies informed the student/victim, if they did not have street smarts, to let a guy assist that did.
Then they suggested me, or another male, and our trust and confidence was earned by the student /victim.

There is no cut-n-dried to all this, each case is unique.

Firearms - couple of ways this plays out.

-I can get a lady up to speed fast with a Youth single shot 20 shotgun, or Medium frame .38spl revolver. [Used Police trade in Model 10, Model 64,]
Serious situation, time is critical, and we do what needs doing NOW, and then later when time allows, and matters less serious, go about the lady trying various platforms and guns.

-Best kept secret is a gas semi-auto 20 ga, such as 1100, Beretta 303, 390/391 and Win 1400.
1400 is the softest recoil shotgun there is - period!

-Lever Action in .357, and sometimes .44 have been best.
Simple MOA, small, easy to tote and maneuver, easy to keep topped off.

SouthNarc is the first thing I recommend, next is having this lady have someone stay with her, or her stay with someone else.
So beef up the house,(including where else she might stay) lights, locks and all, and have practiced plans.

Forget AOJ.
DO think ADEE.
Avoid, Disengage, Evade, Escape

Sending my best to this 16 y/o lady and all those assisting and involved.

Again, this is serious, and guns are NOT the answer to all problems.

Software, not Hardware .

 

[paintballdude902]

my boss' 12 year old daughter is dang good with her 20guage with slugs for black bear

id say a 20guage with 00 or a 12 with some low recoil

im 17 5'9" and 130 and i use a 12guage all day long i love my sxs lots of fun with 00buck

 

[Bezoar]

I am surprised no one has thought beyond the weapon for her to get.

What is the intended protocol for times she is home alone?
A-stay in locked, hardened room with a shotgun for 8-10 hour stretches till momma gets home?
B-wander around the house doing normal day to day things while carrying a shotgun?
C-keep shotgun in safe room upstairs while running around the house unarmed doing normal day to day activities, and PRAYING that when the front door gets kicked in, she can out race the wacko and get to da shotgun first?

Last time i checked, option C was the worst of them all, to easy to get caught unawares, ie take a nap and wake up in a van 50 miles away.

If she plans on carrying the shotgun around with her all day, you need to lend her one so she can try it for a normal 8-10 hour shift. I bet you a box of slugs that she will find it most unpleasant to do.

If she decides to follow option one and hole up under the bed with a loaded shotgun trained on the bedroom door.. it would be the safest in theory, always armed.

so take that into consideration and not just the weapon platform.

shotgun wise, a 20 guage is fine. 870 express in 20 guage with rifled barrel and those nice core lokt slugs from remington.... huge internal damage to anything they connect with.

 

[Guillermo]

BTW

Bought a cheap "driveway alarm" from Harbor Freight. It is a wireless, battery operated motion detector. It has been quite useful at times.

It can alert you if there is movement in a vulnerable spot around the house.

 

[Sergeant Sabre]

What is the intended protocol for times she is home alone?
...
B-wander around the house doing normal day to day things while carrying a shotgun?

I've actually done this before. Mostly just to say I could. It wasn't as inconvenient as you would think. I guess it's something you would really have to be committed to do every day, though.

 

[bwavec]

I have turned several ladies onto 20 gauge pump shotguns for personal/home defense. The Mossberg 500 (sometimes with a shortened youth buttstock) has been a winner.

I also make sure they make it to the range to be able to learn how to handle the firearm competently. 00 buck has been the round of choice. They all have enjoyed the process of learning how to become comfortable with shooting and refining their skills to be able to shoot well.

But in this situation, a big dog could be more useful, along with some constant adult supervision and a good GPS enabled cell phone.

 

[Girodin]

I am not trying to lecture but I will give a big +1 when it comes to training. I have taught kickboxing for many years. That experince has shown me many times over that training and tactics win the day much more often than not.

When one is in a situation where one must defend one's self and someone is really trying to hurt them, one does NOT have time to think. A person will simply react. Having that reaction be the appropriate course of action depends on training and drilling things untill them become reflexes and reactions with no thought.

The vast vast majority of people I have trained have an oh sh*t moment when the get hit real hard the first time. There are also people that simply break down mental, freeze, etc when some one is trying to hurt them. When ones life is on the line is not the time one wants to have those moments (i.e FTF, FTE, you trip and fall, you become injured, someone is really trying to kill you etc etc etc). You need to be prepaired mentaly physicaly and you need to have the right skill sets to deal with a threat.

If one is serious about protecting themselves they will get all the training they can. For different people that means different things. I personaly think training is needed no matter what, but if I knew of a credible threat I would want, even more so, to be as prepaired as possible.

A word about dogs. On gun forums I always read posts telling people to just get a dog. On dog forums I have read people telling people to just get a gun. I am not an expert in either area but I have a great interest in both the tactical use of fire arms and personal protection dogs.

Dogs are not for all people just as guns are not for all people. Both are a huge responisibility. Unless you really want a dog and understand the commitment and resposibility that comes with one you shouldn't get one. This is even more true for the types of breeds that are often discussed.

A big dog can be a very very good deterent. I have a rottwieler and have seen the visual deterent factor in action more than once. I've had some folks who gave me bad vibes go right to the other side of the street when she shot them a serious look. I also had one angry gentleman who was quickly approaching me in rather hostile fashion stop dead in his tracks and instantly change his dispostion when she took a step forward taking the slack out of her leash and staring at him with her full a attention. A big dog walking calmly at your side can have that effect. Most people dont want to risk finding out the hard way what other tricks the dog might know. A visual detterent may be all that you ever need. I seriously hope that it is.

That said I wouldn't stake the saftey of my loved ones or myself on a dog with out QUALITY PP training. An untrained dog is as likely to not engage as it is to engage a threat. This is true even of dogs people swear up and down would protect them. A dog is mans best friend but a dog is his own best friend. Even dogs with trainning can come up short (notice I wrote and emphasized quality earlier). The price of either a well trained dogs or good training for them is rather high (thousands and thousands of dollars) and requires a lot of time in training and maintaing that training as well as excercise and care. There are also a lot of people selling D level dogs at A level prices so one needs to know what they are looking for. I have seen sport dogs which I would not only never being willing to stake my saftey on but I would bet against in a real situation selling for $10K, yes $10,000. Even many police departments have wound up with dogs that aren't up to their jobs. Also owning a PP dog can be a huge liability, there are insurance issues etc. I do think a well trained (even if not protection trained) dog is a good thing it just isn't for everyone and certainly isn't a magic bullet or a fool proof plan. The same as a gun, a security system and many other things. I personaly am about layers of defense and back up plans. Deadbolts, Alarm, Dog, GunS (notice the S), and hand to hand skills, both striking and ground fighting as well as street specific tactics and training (I want to add edged weapons to that list but haven't had the occasion to get real training).

Now that I have given my boring rant, I would say a 20 guage will more than do the trick. As others have mentioned I find it easier to carry a handgun around the house and keep at the ready than a shotgun or carbine. If I knew of a credibloe threat and expected a problem I would certainly carry the long gun and have my secondary as well. I dont know her background in firearms or yours, she might be better than all of us. I would make sure she has at least a good working knowledge of how to operate her weapon and I would have her put as many rounds trhough it as possible. In addition to being needed for her saftery it is a great oppurtunity to spend time with your daughter. Just my very humble opinion on things. Best of luck with what sounds like a scary situation.

 

[rooter]

00 buck has been the round of choice.

I did not think they made 20 ga 00 Buck, where are you finding it?

 

[Ergosphere]

I think a shotgun is the best choice of a firearm for a girl who needs protection. A pistol is less accurate and less powerful. But I'll echo what others here have said: she will need both training and practice.

A 20 ga. is fine. There is a problematic trade-off between the weight of the shotgun and recoil. My wife is very small and she shoots a Mosin-Nagant from the bench just fine (kicks like a mule!). But lifting the gun is another matter. My wife has trouble holding a 6 pound 10/22 steady for very long.

For someone who doesn't have much upper-body strength, one might consider a Mossberg 500 super-bantam in a synthetic stock. It's a light gun so it will recoil hard... but the length of pull is adjustable, and it'd be easier for a girl to hold. If she has some muscle tone, a 12 ga. with reduced recoil loads might be better.

When home alone, the gun should be kept close, accessible, and preferably with a loaded magazine. She should be able to handle a loaded gun safely, indeed comfortable in doing so. A little alertness training might go a long way as well. A dog isn't a bad idea, exactly, but I wouldn't put all her eggs in that basket... especially since it takes time for dogs to bond with people. And there's the responsibility thing again... dogs aren't for anyone, and they require attention and a long-term commitment.

If she's not a remarkably responsible and level-headed girl, or if she's not willing to put in range time with the gun, or if she's not willing to use the gun when necessary and without hesitation, then a firearm is not what she needs.

Seriously, where are her parents, and why is this girl spending time home alone?!?! If neither parent can be home for her why can't she stay with a trusted friend or neighbor? The fact that she must spend time home alone seems fishy to me.