HD shotgun... Pistol grip or standard stock?

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With great respect and asking his leave to do so, I'll bring back into the light a post by our very own "Mr. Shotgun," Dave McCracken. It should be a sticky, but we put those at the top of each forum as a kind of magical ward against anyone ever clicking up there, so...

Dave McCracken said:
PG Only Shotguns and Hip Shooting 101...
Lots of folks who see these things used on TV think they're good for close range combat. They're not. Here's how I know...

1981 was a busy year for me. I had been promoted to Sgt in near record time, survived the J Dorm Riot at the MD House of Corruption without a scratch, and been made a Firearms Instructor. We had a new prison opening and 300 rookies to qualify on all three weapons, 38 Service revolver, Mini 14, and the 870 shotgun.

The Powers That Be in MD's prison system had decreed that instead of towers at the new prison, there would be Rapid Response vehicles circling the institution armed with revolvers and shotguns. These last were equipped with the egregious Remington folder that was recalled for its propensity for cutting faces under recoil.

They also commanded that ALL officers be taught to shoot from the hip with the stocks folded.

With the help of the FBI, who had run the Instructor's school we attended, we figured out how to accomplish this. We set out to A, learn ourselves, and B, get 300 plus rookies to pass the qualifiers and become safe, effective shooters.

Few instructors then and now were shotgunners. I was, and got tagged to not only fire demo rounds for each 25 officer segment, but had to qualify past 90% score to keep my certification. I did, but it took work.

Long story short, I fired hundreds of rounds from the hip that summer. And, I observed hundreds of new officers and some old ones attempt it also. NONE did as well shooting from the hip as from the shoulder. Most had no problem passing the easy qualifier from the shoulder, but they ALL had trouble doing so in the hip shooting portion. By 1991, when I had too much rank to instruct any more, the folders and hip shooting were history, and so were the geniuses who thought that mess up.

Since then, I've taught some private students. A few have showed up for their first lesson with a PG only shotgun they're never fired. Next session, they'd have a standard stock.

Except for some use as a door breaching tool, there's few pros that have PG only shotguns. And those few are quite specialized.

In my somewhat jaundiced but valid opinion, the effort, ammo and time put forth to get one reasonably proficent with a PG only shotgun would,with a standard shotgun, result in being Abso$%^&*ly deadly.

And for those doubtful of the validity of this opinion or mine, here's a challenge. It's the same one I started on TFL.

Any PG only fan living close to Central MD is invited to a shootoff.

We'll shoot your COF.

We'll use the ammo of your choice.

YOU can use any PG only shotgun you want to,with any accessories up to belt feed and lazer sights.

I'll use a standard stocked 870 with few mods or addons.

We'll shoot for score, time decides ties, but there won't be any. Results posted for all to see.

Any questions?

If you want to read all that can reasonably be said on the topic, the 8-page thread this came from is here: http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=44465

-Sam
 
Nope, not advocating .410 over 12 Ga, just the fact that there are better alternatives to a PG shotgun. IMO, a Taurus Judge in .410 is better than a pistol grip shot gun in a HD scenario
Hmmm...obviously a lesser of two evils kind of decision. Ineffective hits vs. inability to make those hits. Tough call.

If you're good enough to make accurate hits with a pistol/revolver, then choose a (real) pistol or revolver. If you need to believe in the "wall of lead" that a shotgun throws, then 3 pellets really doesn't cut it. Hard to see anything -- anything at all -- really, just ANYTHING -- that the Judge brings to the table.

That said, the .45 Colt cartridge is a good defensive round, and the Judge can shoot those, but if you're going to shoot a solid projectile (handgun round), there are many better guns and several better cartridges to choose from.

If Granny can't rack a shotgun slide, then she should have a revolver, and heaven help her stabilize it and shoot it accurately.

But this conversation was about Roger James shooting a PGO shotgun while lying on his back in bed. What does Granny have to do with it? Why is Granny in Roger James' bed? Inquiring minds want to know...

-Sam
 
Gee, I get drafted to work a double shift and look what happens...

While my views haven't changed since I wrote that 101 thread, let me add a couple things.....

No major instructor nor school teaches with PGOs or recommends their use, as Justin states.

No major agency issues them for anything other than breaching. That includes ALL SWAT and HRT teams.

And none of use see them used well at the ranges we frequent. Heck, mostly we do not see them, period.

Yes, someone with lots of practice can achieve a modicum of accuracy, but they can NEVER equal their performance with a standard shotgun. And most folks do not seem to get enough practice with either.

And still,after many years, no one has taken up my gauntlet.....
 
This discussion comes up every couple months, as a quick search will reveal. It always devolves into an argument between those who refuse to see any value to the PGO shotgun, and those who have shot them successfully for years. Add in comments from those who have either never tried to shoot one with the proper technique, or shot one years ago with a mossberg pistol grip, which, while it works OK, is not really the best choice in shotgun pistol grips. Throw in a Youtube video of some moron holding it right in front of his face, and taking it in the teeth.
I use the speedfeed chickenhead grip, which functions like the grip on a standard buttstock held at the hip. It moderates recoil, and encourages point shooting, while allowing easy access to my Mossberg's top-mounted safety. My load of choice is full-power 00 buck, and with this combo, it is a simple matter to place pellets on target quickly and repeatedly at house interior size distances. I also own a Remington 11 riot gun with full-length stock, and it is nowhere near as handy indoors, nor can it be hidden away as easily.
All that having been said, I am much more likely to have a handgun or an M1 carbine in my hands if somebody decides to break in.
If you are unable to shoot a PGO shotgun well, and unwilling to learn the proper techniques that make it possible, then don't. It is a weapon with a long history of use on both sides of the law, probably dating back to the blunderbuss.

Well said AMD..... this topic always takes the LowRoad....:banghead:
 
I don't have tons of experience working as a prison guard,soldier or a cop... this was my first attempt at point shooting from the hip with a short barreled 870/ Witness Protection grip....
I was a bit surprised with the results.
Posted this many times but maybe it will help lighten things up.....maybe.
th_SnowManDown.jpg
 
Dude! They are right -- a pgo shotgun IS useless. You COMPLETELY missed the target and were accidently dusting your sister's snowman!!!

A law enforcement officer (who on average is seven-times less likely to hit his target in an altercation than a civilian shooter by the way) is also put on a line and told to hit a 7 yd. target w/a handgun firing from the hip and probably won't even be on paper. Now this argument is just getting ridiculous and has little, if anything, to do with reality and fact...

Al
 
Al LaVodka said:
Now this argument is just getting ridiculous and has little, if anything, to do with reality and fact...

You've just described every THR thread on this topic, ever.
 
OMG, that is soooo wrong! :D:D:D:D


But this conversation was about Roger James shooting a PGO shotgun while lying on his back in bed. What does Granny have to do with it? Why is Granny in Roger James' bed? Inquiring minds want to know.
 
OK, here's a question: The Knoxx BreachersGrip shotgun pistol grip is supposed reduce recoil. Has anyone here tried one of these?

The product is so effective in reducing recoil that a BreachersGrip-equipped shotgun can be used effectively one-handed, even with magnum loads. Ideal for home defense or close quarters combat, the BreachersGrip is available for most Remington, Winchester, Mossberg and FN series pump shotguns.
 
The Knoxx BreachersGrip shotgun pistol grip is supposed reduce recoil. Has anyone here tried one of these?

Even the name of the product tells you what it's intended for. Geez. . . .
 
Even the name of the product tells you what it's intended for. Geez

From the quote: "Ideal for home defense or close quarters combat," so I'm wondering how it works. I can't tell from the picture so I'm hoping somebody here has seen or used one.
 
I know many here do not think much of pistol grip shotguns.
I see your points and I agree you get better aim with a full stock.

I have a .410 and a single shot .12 for hunting, but I bought a Mossberg Persuader .12 pistol grip to keep close a hand in the house.

I plan to add a folding stock when I find one I like.
Any suggestions???

The thing is, with a pistol grip, you really need to fire off more than a few rounds. Practice, practice, practice.
 
Knoxx recoil reducing stocks have a great rep. They are apparently quite effective though I've never used them. I would believe them though. They are also kinda expensive. A full stock costs as much as my pistol grip project shotgun...
Al
 
I'd say it works by sucking up mall ninja's money. As for recoil and comfort, probably the same as anything else out there. :p
 
I like them.



AT 15 ft or less, in EXTREMELY tight spaces or vehicles, and with the right ammo. I use a PGO as my house gun and have practiced extensively with it. Around 8 times out of 10 I'm taking the standard shoulder mounted shotgun. I keep staggered buckshot in the tube - 00, #4, 00, #4, 00. I believe the number 4 buck would help to clean up any misses with the 00 if things got hectic. At the ranges I'd use the gun at, however, misses aren't likely (thanks to practice).


If you only have ONE shotgun, do yourself a favor and keep a stock on it. If you get a 2nd "defensive" s-gun and want a pistol grip, be ready to practice long and hard. And don't expect it to EVER be better than the shoulder length in most situations.

If anyone made a folder I thought I could trust over time, or one that didn't have awful cheek weld. I'd get a folder instead of just a pgo. Problem is, I feel like any folder will wear out over time. When I buy a weapon, I try to set it up to be built to last. And none of the folders currently me made scream out permanent to me.

As for recoil reduction in a stock, to hell with it. And to hell with paying Knoxx's OUTRAGEOUS Blackhawk! tactigool guy mall ninja markup prices. I hate that company and won't buy any of their cheesy products. The recoil doesn't really correlate to the handicap of the weapon anyway, which is not being able to shoulder it and point it. "faster follow up shots" is just another term for how a mall ninja is able to waste ammo with poor technique, usually. Standard 12 gauge 2 3/4" 00 buck doesnt kick bad enough to need reducing anyway. If someone can't handle it, they'd be better served with a different weapon. I guess I just don't understand tailoring a gun out of it's strengths by using expensive stocks, lower velocity ammo, and such when someone could just find a different weapon that shoots them more. Can't handle/Don't like the feel of a shotgun? A Keltec Sub2000 Carbine in 9mm with 33 rd Glock mags is gonna ruin your day just as bad, in the end. defensive shotgun is and will always be a specialized realm.
 
Shoot both. A PGO shotgun may look cool, but a shotgun with a stock is the way to go, by far, for accuracy, recoil handling, etc. I don't see how a PGO is more maneuverable. Anyway, if you're thinking about clearing your house during a real home invasion, I think that would be a bad decision without taking extensive shotgun defense classes. Even then, clearing a house would be extremely dangerous. The professionals clear houses using teams, and it's still extremely dangerous then.
 
You are right...Don't clear your house...But, hunkered down in a bedroom at the end of a hallway with a PGO shotgun would be VERY dangerous for a bad actor who wants to attack.
I frankly couldn't care less what the pro trainers feel is best for me to use. I am 53, and have been shooting since I was 5. When I started shooting handguns, most experts said that the revolver was the only serious SD handgun..."everybody knew" that autos were complicated and jammed all the time. At that time, when most cops were packing S&W Model 10's, I was carrying a Browning HiPower.
 
Criminy, this thread is still going?

FWIW, Sam1911 has pretty well summed up my motivations behind my posts.

The tiger rock comparison took it to an absurd level to equate the poster's developing perspective as being just as misguided. It is more absurd to think, and inappropriate to imply, that a pistol grip only shotgun is as useless for HD. I assert that although it is not ideal, it is anything but useless, could and should be quite effective, and may in fact be the best choice in a particular circumstance. That analogy coming from Justin was a distraction, at best.

The analogy with the tiger-repelling rock* was an obvious attempt to point up the specious reasoning in some of the posts made. There was no intent to draw a comparison between the effectiveness of a rock vs. a PGO shotgun as a weapon.


As to the effectiveness of PGO shotguns, if your thoughts on the issue pretty well stop at "I have a shotgun stoked with buckshot and that's all I need" then there's really no use having a discussion. Plenty of calls have been made on this forum for people to actually test PGO's against stocked guns under field or practical conditions, and so far as I've seen, not one of the PGO advocates has risen to the challenge.

I've offered up both my personal experience with them, as well as first hand observations of competitors running a close-quarters courses of fire with a PGO vs. others running stocked shotguns, and it was quite incredible how disparate the results were, especially given that many of the people running the stocked shotguns were running 3Gun-style boat oar guns that are longer than even a traditional defense gun with an 18.5" barrel.

When it comes to this issue there's a lot of internet chest-thumping and very little attempt to actually back it up with any sort of actual evidence. In fact, among shooters, I've yet to encounter a group who so obstinately refuses to go to the range and put lead on target as PGO advocates.



*Which originally appeared in an episode of The Simpsons, back when that show was still both funny and culturally relevant.
 
Open challenge to anyone that thinks PGO is useless,
Come up to Canada, B.C. and we will go shooting.....I've got a few 870's in different configurations so I'm sure I can lend you something that you are comfortable with.

The problem with some of the "challenges" that have been layed down in the past is proximity related.....I'd love to shoot with Dave but I'm not ready to plan a trip around it.

Dave's any course of fire offer is too good to be true because after we hike all day or run a mile I think I will leave him in the dust...:D

The fact that no one has challenged Dave does not prove a thing .....tiger rocks.
 
When it comes to this issue there's a lot of internet chest-thumping and very little attempt to actually back it up with any sort of actual evidence. In fact, among shooters, I've yet to encounter a group who so obstinately refuses to go to the range and put lead on target as PGO advocates.

Evidence of what? That a PGO is better then a full stock?

Or that a guy can hit a snowman sized target from the hip at 10-15 yards, shooting from the hip on his first day of "training" .....
 
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