Heads up - History Channel tonight, 9/13/05

[boing]

IIRC, they did in fact use armor piercing rifle ammunition, with steel penetrators. I can't remember where I saw/heard the reference, but the distinction was specifically made between standard ball and the armor piercing rounds used by the bad guys.

"Shootout" is more than a little too melodramatic for me, but then most of the history/learning/discovering-type shows are these days.

 

[grnzbra]

So THAT'S what TIVO was recording!

I haven't seen it but have been recording the series. From the comments you guys are making, I think I'll just erase all of it, since I now have no confidence in the accuracy of any of it.

 

[realmswalker]

North Hollywood is lucky the bandits had full auto.

So is Southern California.

If the bandits didn't have full auto, the LAPD and others wouldn't have had to keep their heads down. If they would have been able to return fire, in their usual manner, the cops there would have shot holes in everything and everybody all the way to Tijuana.

I find this statement to be ignorant and ridiculous. They were LUCKY? I don't think the word lucky should ever be used when describing that event, it was tragic. And if you ever get in a shootout and the BG doesnt have a full auto weapon, let's see if you follow your own advice and don't keep your head down.

As for the cop bashing about shootouts, until you have been in any situation where you are in a firefight, do not bash.

On a side note, the two BG's in the shootout were my uncles next door neighbors.

 

[Delmar]

"Does anyone think the robbers could have gotten away if did something differently"

It might have been possible, but recall that before starting this robbery, both of them partook of phenobarbital-that is one big stop sign! They called it a muscle relaxer, but the VA prescribed some of that for me one time, and it is certainly a muscle relaxer-more like muscles are taking a nappie!

The other thing which brought them to the shootout was pure coincidence. Two uniforms driving by saw them fully armed and headed for the bank. If they had not been seen, they might have had the 8 minutes, give or take to do what they started.

 

[demusn1979]

armalite ar15=m15!

 

[Fletchette]

You mean the History Channel aired a show that had nothing to do with Nazis?

Amazing.

I thought they did mention the BATF...

 

[Jeff Timm]

Two things they did make clear. The perps were arrested two years earlier for illegal possession of weapons, one was a convicted felon, and then the Police gave them the weapons BACK! Including one which had been converted to full auto.

<Insert conspiracy theory here>

Geoff
Who thinks police in CA should have been investigated, too many strange releases of criminals or allowing criminals to buy guns despite convictions.

 

[SB88LX]

SWAT had M15's . I knew .45 was uber deadly. SWAT finally ditched the pea-shooter MP5s for the super stockless SBR

 

[longhorngunman]

If the two dimwits hadn't taken the muscle relaxers they would have probably made a easy getaway. Watching the actual footage they showed was downright funny. The way the two thugs just walked around in no hurry, get in car, wait, get out, calmly open the trunk. Yeah, those muscle relaxers definetly relaxed their muscles and that apparent dim light bulb between their shoulders. Good grief! 1100 rounds fired and they didn't kill anybody! These boys definetly weren't from Texas.

 

[Otherguy Overby]

Lapd

sarcasm from me:
If the bandits didn't have full auto, the LAPD and others wouldn't have had to keep their heads down. If they would have been able to return fire, in their usual manner, the cops there would have shot holes in everything and everybody all the way to Tijuana.

LAPD has had a lot of bad shootings. Sheesh, recently they even participated in a televised circular firing squad. I recall they fired something like 120 or more rounds. I think they had a less than 10% hit rate if you didn't add in all the dwellings hit and the officer wounded by their "friendly" fire.

I find this statement to be ignorant and ridiculous. They were LUCKY? I don't think the word lucky should ever be used when describing that event, it was tragic. And if you ever get in a shootout and the BG doesnt have a full auto weapon, let's see if you follow your own advice and don't keep your head down.

Regarding your attack the messenger, instead of the message strategy: please let me remind you that the LAPD has gone through repeated cycles of corruption since at least prohibition time. The somewhat recent Ramparts corruption was especially heinous.

Lastly, please don't forget how the LAPD responded to the Rodney King verdict riots, they didn't show up.

 

[MechAg94]

Well, for those who have not practiced with their pistols beyond 20 yards, it ain't that easy unless you practice. I doubt those cops had practiced at that range. Even 40 yards can make a huge difference. Head shots with a pistol are fine at short range, but if you can do it consistently at 50 yards or more, you are a better shot than I am. Revolvers may be better, but I doubt they were aiming carefully under fire.

I understand the LAPD has acquired AR-15's since then. That should help a lot in situations like that.

 

[bad LT]

I believe that the 308 ammo for the HK-91 contained armor piercing bullets pulled from AP 30/06 ammo. That would be true AP ammo.
(Someone correct me if I am wrong please)

However, any decent rifle bullet (30/06, 7.62x39, 30/30, etc.) will go through soft body armor like it were swiss cheese. Simple physics shows this to be the case. If this is what they were refering too then all rifle ammo is armor piercing. :banghead:

 

[bill2]

What is armor piercing?

What exactly is armour piercing ammo? How is it different from regular ball ammo, for example the 55 grain stuff I buy for in bulk for my Armalite .223 (also knows labelled by Armalite as an M-15)?

How much armor will it actually go through?

And for the purpose of penetrating vests, do you need armour piercing or is the velocity/power of a rifle cartridge sufficient in itself?

What would a shotgun slug had done to the bad guys if one of the cops had shot them in the vest?


Oh, Othereguy - the shootout you mentioned in LA with the 120 rounds fired was handled by the LA county sherriff's office, I believe.


thanks

 

[longhorngunman]

Bill2, I am not an expert by any stretch of the imagination. But from what I understand basically any FMJ spitzer type bullet that impacts the armor at 2000fps or faster will penetrate regular body armor. I've heard and read of instances like in Iraq where our soldiers have "stopped" hi-power rifle rounds with their armor, but they use ceramic or steel plate inserts for this kind of protection. Most handguns cartridges are only around 1000fps or slightly more, and they use bigger bullets which requires more energy to "slip through" body armor. As the old saying goes "Don't bring a handgun to a rifle fight".