Heads-Up If You CCW in Ohio - Video Is Up!

[RDCL]

2 questions for LEO's......

1) Do officers have the ability to turn OFF their dash cams?

2) Is it common for officers to simply forget that their cruiser dash cam is recording every thing they say?

I ask because I am simply baffled as to why an officer with many years on the force would behave in such a way knowing full well he was being recorded. If #1 is a "YES"......then I'm thinking that maybe he thought the cam was turned off at the time.

As an Ohioan myself this is scary stuff. Makes me afraid to even take firearms out of the house anymore (and it's a shame I have to feel that way).


When I first read about this incident I felt that having the officer fired was perhaps too drastic a measure, only because what if the guy has children? Why should they suffer for his mis-deeds?
My opinion changed completely after seeing and hearing the video......this man needs to be fired, and to never wear a badge again....ever. This man is a storm-trooper......NOT a police officer.


I wonder if I'm the only one thinking that he will receive a token "punishment" and be back on duty by September 2011.

 

[Dave Workman]

KCSO circulates Ohio police dash cam video as tempers stay hot

http://www.examiner.com/gun-rights-...hio-police-dash-cam-video-as-tempers-stay-hot


The forward-thinking (and generally gun friendly) King County, WA sheriff's department is using this as a learning tool..and that's a good thing.

 

[bigfatdave]

only because what if the guy has children?

NEVER a reason to keep someone on the public rolls.

Breeding is not a special accomplishment.

I wonder if I'm the only one thinking that he will receive a token "punishment" and be back on the streets by September 2011.

Odd, generally you hear the "back on the streets" comment from po-po in reference to the catch-and-release court/jail system.

 

[Patriotme]

I realize that we have hundreds of law enforcement agencies across the US and gear is not standardized. SOP is also not standardized.
With that said I still have to ask if these dash cams are generally left running all of the time or are they turned on at each traffic stop? Can they be erased by the LEO? Is there generally some form of penalty for having the cam off or the footage erased?
It seems truly stupid that this officer left this footage on the camera and I have to wonder if this stop reflects the usual behaviour of this officer or his department. If you don't worry about consequences then you don't try to hide your actions.
One final question. How long is this dash cam footage kept on file if no FOIA requests or lawsuits are filed?

 

[Deanimator]

Can they be erased by the LEO? Is there generally some form of penalty for having the cam off or the footage erased?

Harless was previously reprimanded for NOT turning on the dashcam during a stop.

 

[FourTeeFive]

KCSO circulates Ohio police dash cam video as tempers stay hot

http://www.examiner.com/gun-rights-i...mpers-stay-hot


The forward-thinking (and generally gun friendly) King County, WA sheriff's department is using this as a learning tool..and that's a good thing.

Very good to see this happening!

 

[guninformation]

The Canton, Ohio police incident is a good reason why every armed citizen should at least make sure they when they are carrying that they should at least also carry with them a camcorder to record any and all incidents that you may have with law enforcement. That way you'll never end up on the wrong end of a he said-he said situation should you ever end up in court.

 

[Patriotme]

Harless was previously reprimanded for NOT turning on the dashcam during a stop.

Well that at least is good to know. I wonder how bad the usual reprimand is for not turning on the camera. Is it a big deal for most departments or is one of those, "Alright you rascal you" kind of deals?
I really look at these new laws banning citizens from taping police with a lot of worry. I believe that the vast majority of officers are decent, professional and competent but the simple fact remains that without a recording it's always your word against that of the officer. The best that you can hope for is reduced or dropped charges after spending thousands (or tens of thousands) of dollars in legal fees.

 

[Deanimator]

The best that you can hope for is reduced or dropped charges after spending thousands (or tens of thousands) of dollars in legal fees.

The nice thing about Ohio CCW law is that if they unlawfully mess with you on that basis, you get your legal fees paid for by the offending entity.

 

[we are not amused]

I am a new member here, although I have been reading this site from time to time, but I finally decided to put my two cents in.
There has been a lot of people critical of the CCL driver for not immediately informing the officer that he was carrying. I have watched the tape, and the driver tried to do so at least twice, possibly three times, he was very forcibly told to shut up each time. As for his possible "trolling" for a prostitute, unconfirmed and really stupid speculation on every ones part, the idiot cops involved as well. I read on another forum,(not sure as to its authenticity) That he had known the girl from his time driving a taxi, and had picked her up and her friend, (the guy in the back seat) and was letting her off, when the stop happened. Doesn't mean she was a prostitute, but indicates whether she was or not, he wasn't trolling.
Officers often look at situations, where there may be questionable activity, and immediately assume the worst, and behave as such.
I Have been the victim of innocent behavior, that some idiot cop deemed suspicious, and treated as a possible terrorist, a meth drug runner, a poacher and trespasser(on my own property no less) and a suspect of pointing a gun at some one (didn't have a gun, but happened to be in the area, driving a somewhat similar vehicle the next day), and several other stops I never figured out what they thought I was doing wrong, but they sure didn't like it. Unfortunately the behavior of those cops on tape was not as rare as it ought to have been. Too many cops turn the other eye, when their partners get crazy. We need the police, but we need good cops, not crazies like those two. We also need cops, who are willing to turn in their "fellow Officers" when they learn of this kind of behavior. When I was younger, I palled around with a couple of local cops, and even though I always thought they were pretty harmless, their attitude really bothered me, rules were for other people, not them. I eventually stopped hanging out with them for them because of their attitude.
Police are human beings, not all are nice reasonable human beings, some are just nasty, mean individuals.

 

[we are not amused]

The Canton, Ohio police incident is a good reason why every armed citizen should at least make sure they when they are carrying that they should at least also carry with them a camcorder to record any and all incidents that you may have with law enforcement. That way you'll never end up on the wrong end of a he said-he said situation should you ever end up in court.

Good idea, although digital voice recorder might be more practical. Be aware not all cops like being videotaped, and you may be subjected to the Canton, Ohio treatment. I don't have any links handy, but there are a lot of stories out there of people being arrested and charged with felonies for filming routine stops.

 

[HOOfan_1]

there are a lot of stories out there of people being arrested and charged with felonies for filming routine stops.

Then the Supreme Court needs to get involved.

In this day and age where businesses and our government are taking their lead from England and placing cameras all over the place keeping an eye on the citizens, why shouldn't the citizens also have a right to have cameras keeping an eye on them.

This country is in need of a big shake up...all of our values hard fought for in the Revolution are going down the toilet.

 

[WinThePennant]

We are becoming a police state.

Time to put a stop to enforcing most victimless crimes.

END THE WAR ON DRUGS.

 

[Thylacine]

This video made me physically ill. I do think that the officer should be charged with crimes. He should never be allowed to wear the badge anywhere again.

 

[coloradokevin]

Wow, just wow. I tried to keep an open mind as I watched the video, being in LE myself, and knowing that the facts already known to the officer don't always show up on video (like, perhaps, a known hooker in the middle of a prostitution deal). Anyway, I tried to keep an open mind and give the officer the benefit of the doubt... right up until the time when the driver revealed his CCW permit. At this point, whether or not it was a prostitution deal is largely irrelevant. This cop was way out of line.

This cop has some serious anger management issues, and makes the rest of us look like fools. Frankly, despite what he said about the failure to notify, that's still not "how cops get killed" as this officer alleged. Cops get killed by murderous psychopaths who get the jump on us.

I grew up in Ohio, and lived there for 24 years of my life. I always recognized that Ohio had a very active gun culture, and a slew of stupid laws when it came to CCW issues. Living out here in Colorado really makes it stand out. We have no notification law, and we don't require a permit if you intend to carry a weapon in your car (a car, or "other means of conveyance" is considered an extension of your home, and thereby does not require a CCW permit). We also don't have the silly "no carry" signs posted on every other business.

Interestingly, even with our looser carry laws here in CO, I've never felt that my safety was at risk while working (at least not as a result of those carry laws). I treat every person with the knowledge that they could be like my grandmother, or could be an immediate threat to my life. You just never know what you're walking into, and you can't assume that a notification from a driver means anything. I always encourage people to notify officers of carry guns during a traffic stop, just as I do in the rare instances when I'm stopped. I believe it makes everyone on the stop safer. But, I don't advocate a system of mandatory notification, because it really does nothing to protect me against someone who is trying to kill me (frankly, my skills, training, and experience are the only defenses I have in that kind of situation).

 

[forgetitohio]

Before this started I went to the Sheriff's and asked for a CLEAR definition of "escalating the situation" and "brandishing".
They couldn't give me one. I was told I should know the laws.
So I asked for a booklet that they hand out when one applies for a CCW.
Was told it's not up to date and was given the website for the Ohio CCW laws. I pretty much read it all and still cannot find a definition of the laws that I can be comfortable with.

After Sept.30th. in Ohio a CCWer can carry in a restaurants and other places that serves booze. The CCWer cannot be drinking or UTI.
I know people have mixed thoughts about that one.
Class D holders have the right to post signs like any other business that don't want CCW in their places.

Ohio finally came up with a CLEAR definition of CCW in a vehicle which makes sense but still have to tell them when pulled over.

Ohio is a very confusing place to CC. Maybe that's why the laws are not clear and changing. To keep me from CC and paranoid when I do. LOL

The central problem of our age is how to act decisively in the absence of certainty. - Bertrand Russell

 

[bigfatdave]

I always encourage people to notify officers of carry guns during a traffic stop, just as I do in the rare instances when I'm stopped. I believe it makes everyone on the stop safer.

How, exactly, does it make anyone safer?

If I wanted to shoot a cop who had pulled me over, I would do it as they passed the "B" pillar, or as they walked away ... notification doesn't prevent someone making that choice.

Shall I "notify" about the tire iron on the back seat floorboard? Shall I "notify" about the folding knife in my pocket? Shall I "notify" about the 2600# motorized battering ram I'm at the controls of? Shall I "notify" about the pepperblaster in my pocket?

Would ANY notification if a tool I have at my disposal change my desire to use that ool on the nearest cop?

It seems that notifying po-po in Canton of a handgun will lead to threats, violence, and lies. On the other hand, it might lead to early retirement if I survive.

 

[coloradokevin]

How, exactly, does it make anyone safer?

If I wanted to shoot a cop who had pulled me over, I would do it as they passed the "B" pillar, or as they walked away ... notification doesn't prevent someone making that choice.

Shall I "notify" about the tire iron on the back seat floorboard? Shall I "notify" about the folding knife in my pocket? Shall I "notify" about the 2600# motorized battering ram I'm at the controls of? Shall I "notify" about the pepperblaster in my pocket?

Would ANY notification if a tool I have at my disposal change my desire to use that ool on the nearest cop?

It seems that notifying po-po in Canton of a handgun will lead to threats, violence, and lies. On the other hand, it might lead to early retirement if I survive.

Simply put, it might make you safer (which is mostly what I was referring to). If your weapon is well-concealed and never spotted, it probably makes no difference at all. On the other hand, if an officer who has stopped you notices your gun during a stop, you can bet that the tension level is going to go up a bit, at least until he determines (to a level that is acceptable to his own subconscious satisfaction) if you are a good guy or bad guy. Taking that a step further, if the officer for some reason thinks that you are making a move towards that weapon, then the best case scenario puts you in a situation where you're looking at the business end of the officer's weapon.

By notifying the officer at the time of the stop, I believe that you put the situation at ease a bit... as you demonstrated in your own hypothetical reply, real killers typically don't tell us that they are planning to shoot us!

I honestly don't care if you notify an officer or not, and in my state it isn't a legal requirement. Do as you please, please! I'm just providing my personal opinion on the subject, having been on both the giving and receiving end of more than a couple of traffic stops, and armed encounters. Personally, I notify if I'm stopped, and I advised MY family members to do the same. There's no ulterior motive here on my part, I assure you.

Besides, the entire reason that this thread exists is because the actions of this screw-ball cop in Canton, OH were so outlandish in the first place. I'm sure you don't believe that this guy's attitude is representative of the majority of law enforcement officers! There are a few nuts who slip through the cracks in the hiring/training process, but the overwhelming majority of us who wear the badge are a lot more "balanced" than that guy.

As a personal observation, I always get flamed on here whenever I recommend notifying about a CCW. Perhaps this has something to do with the varying views on firearms ownership in different parts of the country? Here in Colorado our gun laws are fairly relaxed, and carrying a gun in a vehicle isn't a very big deal (don't even need a CCW permit to do so).

 

[Johnny_Come_Lately]

Being stopped for a moment in a "no parking" zone is hardly probable cause.

Actually parking in a handicapped spot requires proper authorization. Absence of such creates a violation giving probable cause for the idiots to initiate a stop, but not to act as they did.

How does anyone know the victim was there longer than needed to drop off his friend and his friend's date?

It really does not matter if the car stopped if even for a moment.

A reasonable person would see that and assume "designated driver making drop-off" ...

…or of solicitation of prostitution.

and all in the name of some nanny-state "crimes" with no victims.

Watch a few 17 year olds get arrested for prostitution who have been beaten by pimps then are forced to turn whatever money they make to the very same protectors and then prostitution a victimless crime.

I don't care about "illegal drugs" - those problems are from the black market, not the end users

How many burglaries do you think are caused by end users looking for something that can be turned into quick cash so they can get a fix. Many many more than you may think are care to admit.

and they don't justify the endless 4a violations.

The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized.

See above.

The offending officer has 16 complaints filed against him since 2000.

Which is a story all in of itself. And in the case is the REAL story. This incident seems to be a chapter in this hopefully ending saga.

LEO's are civil servants

Sworn to uphold whatever lawful legislation in the jurisdiction in which sworn.

Garbage like this man and others like him is why people don't like cops in general.

Which is LEO's such as I DO NOT condone his behavior in any way.

so what if he was engaged in renting something from another consenting adult?

If his community has passed an ordinance against it, which is all that really matters.

The officer yelling about how that is cops get killed is idiotic.

The officer yelling in of itself is idiotic

This is why the whole duty to notify crap is BS.

BINGO!!!

When encountering any situation, a LEO should be mindful of the situation and let the course of that situation dictate his actions, not allow their actions create a situation.

Being a cop shouldn't afford him any more protection than any other civil servant out there, shouldn't afford him any more protection than any other citizen out there.

You are right, but like anyone else I'm going to protect myself. I am wrong however, if I violate someone's rights to do so.

Remember, it is a job, it isn't personal

Could not have said it any better.

 

[bigfatdave]

On the other hand, if an officer who has stopped you notices your gun during a stop, you can bet that the tension level is going to go up a bit, at least until he determines (to a level that is acceptable to his own subconscious satisfaction) if you are a good guy or bad guy.

I suppose that I wouldn't want some <deleted> to "take two steps back, pull his Glock Forty, put ten rounds in me, and watch me drop"
Of course, that's not something that can be fixed by notifying, it seems.

Besides, the entire reason that this thread exists is because the actions of this screw-ball cop in Canton, OH were so outlandish in the first place. I'm sure you don't believe that this guy's attitude is representative of the majority of law enforcement officers!

"majority"? ... no.
But I don't thing it is a minority of one, and I'm not about to trust in the good graces of some random guy with a badge just because it makes another guy with a badge get a warm fuzzy feeling.
I'll notify because I'm required to by law, and that is the ONLY reason I'd even consider notifying.

Watch a few 17 year olds get arrested for prostitution who have been beaten by pimps then are forced to turn whatever money they make to the very same protectors and then prostitution a victimless crime.

That's slavery or kidnapping ... and has nothing to do with prostitution. The victim in that situation is pretty obvious. The motivation for the pimp comes from the black market, not anything inherent to prostitution.

How many burglaries do you think are caused by end users looking for something that can be turned into quick cash so they can get a fix. Many many more than you may think are care to admit.

So what? Caused by the black market, not caused by drugs.

 

[Deanimator]

Besides, the entire reason that this thread exists is because the actions of this screw-ball cop in Canton, OH were so outlandish in the first place. I'm sure you don't believe that this guy's attitude is representative of the majority of law enforcement officers!

It is representative of an UNKNOWN percentage of law enforcement officers.

One thing that is NOT unknown is that similar things have happened before in Ohio.

Cops (at least in Ohio) can't be trusted with mandatory notification. They abuse it. So it has to be taken away from them. It's as simple as that.

 

[bigfatdave]

Cops [strike](at least in Ohio)[/strike] can't be trusted with mandatory notification. They abuse it. So it has to be taken away from them. It's as simple as that.

indeed
I don't even trust them with dispatch notification

I've lent my car to family members in town, what about their baffled response to Sgt Steroid pulling a gun on them because my plates link to an "Oh Noes GUNZ!" entry?

 

[30-30shooter]

whats stupid is i heard the officer was suspended with pay

 

[Deanimator]

whats stupid is i heard the officer was suspended with pay

That's typical.

What's FAR more stupid is the real possibility that he WON'T be fired, and if he is, that the union could get him reinstated.

With his well earned reputation, he's now effectively WORTHLESS as a cop... FOREVER. Keeping him on the payroll is a blatant misuse of public funds.

 

[HOOfan_1]

Being a cop shouldn't afford him any more protection than any other civil servant out there, shouldn't afford him any more protection than any other citizen out there.

You are right, but like anyone else I'm going to protect myself. I am wrong however, if I violate someone's rights

In this case I meant protection of his job and not his life.

Although I think it applies to both, in this particular instance I was saying he shouldn't get any more benefit of doubt than any other civil servant. If he wasn't a police officer, but instead a teller at the DMV, I think he would have been canned before now, not just placed on administrative leave.