Headspace,and sizing dies

[JackSprat]

I had just one 223,and it is a Savage which is pretty tight chambered..I picked up a used HandiRifle the otherday in 223,and played around with it some yesterday using the shells I already have loaded that chamber well in the Savage..I was pleased with the accuracy,and most fired,but I had a couple that didn't fire.I'm thinking it most likely is because the shell are creating too much headspace,but I don't know for sure,but this has got the wheels in my mind turning..Does case sizing have enough effect on headspace to create a dangerous situation?..I have shot some loads in my Savage that were kinda snug when closing the bolt,I didn't have to force it,but they did kinda shine up the headstamp a little.Was this dangerious?..And does it mean that every time you start reloading for a different rifle you are altering the headspace?.

 

[Walkalong]

You can cause problems with improper sizing, too little or too much. You cannot change the headspace of the gun as it is mechanically fixed. You can affect head clearance and create "artificial headspace", or in other words, too much head clearance, which can cause case head separation. Too little sizing and you are jamming the round closed in the chamber with the leverage from the bolt. Neither are good.

You need some way of measuring where the shoulder after firing and after sizing. There have been several recent threads touching on these things.

 

[jmorris]

Would have been a lot easier to close up the Savage a little, might not have even needed to shuck the barrel up in the lathe.

The Handirifle is a different matter though. The lug would have to be moved forward, ejector slot machined deeper by the amount you took off from the chamber end. Doesn't sound like a lot of work but it is.

I would be inclined to load "special" ammunition for it, maybe take advantage of not having to restrict OAL to fit in a magazine too, would make it easy to keep track of.

Any one you know have a set of go/nogo chamber gauges? That and some shims and you would at least know where it's at in thousandths.

 

[JackSprat]

A lot of the techinical stuff about reloading is over my head..I can measure simple things like case,and overall length,but as far as measuring shoulder position,and things like that I am lost..My main concern is safety..If I measure my brass and it stretches too much after one shot,I guess that would indicate too much space,..I check my brass with the paperclip method after a few firings,so if I did it more often would it catch case head separation before it happened?..

 

[Metal God]

(A lot of the techinical stuff about reloading is over my head..I can measure simple things like case,and overall length,but as far as measuring shoulder position,and things like that I am lost..My main concern is safety)

Well then you need to learn how to measure your cases from head to datum line/point . You can buy a Hornady head space gauge https://www.amazon.com/Hornady-Lock-Load-Headspace-Gauge/dp/B000PD5VN8

How to use or how they work


The video does not show another ( best ) way to check how much you bumped the shoulder . First I'll say that the this gauge is less a gauge and more a comparator . It compares one case to another rather then giving you an absolute measurement .

So what you do is take a fire formed case from your savage or handy rifle and measure it in the gauge . Lets just say that measurement is 1.500 ( made up number ) depending on the firearm ( bolt action or semi ) You want to size your cases to measure in that gauge at 1.498 to 1.496 . or .002 to .004 shorter then the 1.500 of the fire formed case . This is done for each rifle . Sometimes different rifles have very close chamber sizes and loading all the same sized cases works just fine . Other times the chambers are quite different and it's best to load firearm specific rounds

You can use the gauge/comparator to "compare" your savage fire formed brass to the handy rifle's fire formed brass . You say the savage has a small/tight chamber ?? so if your handy rifle's fire formed brass measures .006+ longer then the brass fire formed from your savage then I'd recommend you make separate ammo for each .

 

[Axis II]

Hey jack checkout this thread. these guys helped me a lot with this and i took Barts advice on the bushing from home depot and it worked great. i was able to knock fire formed from my savage 223 HB down 2-3 thousandths. i checked about 10 pieces of LC 07 brass and all of them hit in the same specs of each other.

https://www.thehighroad.org/index.php?threads/headspace.815278/page-3#post-10445077

 

[higgite]

Did you try restriking the rounds that didn't fire? Could the problem have been primers weren't fully seated for the first strike?

 

[JackSprat]

Did you try restriking the rounds that didn't fire? Could the problem have been primers weren't fully seated for the first strike?

I tried to restrike one,and it didn't fire.I dont think it is the primers because I have fired a good bit in the Savage and they all fired.

 

[fguffey]

I keep it simple, I off set the length of the chamber from the shoulder to the bolt face with the length of the case from the shoulder of the case to the case head.

F. Guffey

 

[Varminterror]

Is your Savage tight chambered, or just minimum spec headspaced? There is a big difference.

If it is a minimum spec headspace, then you can easily adjust it to match headspace of your new Handi-Rifle to allow you to use the same cases in both. Of course, that won't fix anything for your shoulder datum to ogive datum length for bullet seating, but that can be fixed by a smith if you really so desire. If you want to match up your headspacing, grab a few once fired brass from your handi-rifle and a few from your savage - mic the difference in headspace. The simplest cheat is to add a 1thou or 2thou shim to the base of the handi's brass and use that as your GO gauge in the Savage. Loosen the barrel nut, thread the barrel out a bit, chamber the handi brass, thread the barrel back in to touch the brass, then tighten the brass. Done in 20min. Ever wanna go back? Repeat using the Savage's current once fired brass.

 

[Sunray]

Your issue has nothing whatever to do with headspace. Sizing nor cases have headspace. And, as mentioned, you cannot alter headspace by doing anything to a case. Headspace is a rifle manufacturing tolerance only.
What you have is reloaded ammo that either wasn't FL resized or wasn't properly FL resized. No amount of fiddling with shims or anything else will matter either.
"...I measure my brass and..." If it's not longer than the Max case length given in your manual, it's fine. 1.760" is max for .223.
"...lot of the techinical stuff about reloading is over my head..." Read reference chapters in your manual. They're written in 'real people' English, not technoweenie. Wouldn't try to figure out the formulas though. Make your head explode. Lotta stuff seen only on scientific calculators.

 

[kingmt]

Is there strikes to the primer on the ones that didn't fire. My kids have some Rossi's that take a hard closing on some ammo. They appear closed & the hammer will fall but they aren't close so they don't fire. I can usually just reopen the chamber & close it a little harder to get them to fire.

Since it sounds like your ammo is already a little long I suggest you look into this. Bolt actions are more forgiving then other actions.

 

[fguffey]

Is there strikes to the primer on the ones that didn't fire. My kids have some Rossi's that take a hard closing on some ammo.

15 years ago I sent a rifle back to Winchester (long story) starting with ' I did not send it back, the Winchester warranty shop sent it back. They sent the rifle back to me in a new box. I decided I needed to do something with the rifle after 14 years so I started loading for it. I do not know about the hard closing of the Rosie's but the bolt on the 300 Win Mag Model 70 Winchester was impossible to close so I dug out some new factory ammo, same thing. I had one of those moments, I considered calling Winchester and then got over that urge quickly.

The extractor would not jump the rim of the case, with extra effort I could have closed the bolt but had I closed the bolt and pulled the trigger the case head would have moved back and separated from the case body.

F. Guffey

 

[james layman]

.35 Savage is particularity sensitive to shoulder size. After full length sizing, decapping with inside button can pull shoulder out of specs. I would use an under sized button to see if it helps in your .243. Another possible cure would be to decap first then full length size. James

 

[JackSprat]

I have been studying on it,and messing around with some dummy rounds from the process of setting up my dies for the Savage,and I think I can use the chamber itself on the HandiRifle like a comparator since it breaks down,and is fully visible.I can even see a little difference with my naked eye between the dummy round that was tight in the Savage,and the one that I finaly settled on for it,it drops down just a little further in the chamber..

 

[Walkalong]

You can't see .008, and that would be too much.

You could keep sizing until the action just does close, but that is tighter than needed and cutting it too close for a break open action.

Use some sort of tool to measure where the shoulder is. Bump it back an average of .003 or .004 and call it good.

 

[JackSprat]

I can see a very slight difference with my naked eye but I didn't measure it I could measuse it with a good metal rule and feeler gauges I think. the one with the primer is a case fired from it,and the other two are dummy rounds

You can't see .008, and that would be too much.

You could keep sizing until the action just does close, but that is tighter than needed and cutting it too close for a break open action.

Use some sort of tool to measure where the shoulder is. Bump it back an average of .003 or .004 and call it good.

 

[Nature Boy]

The hornady headspace comparator works well for me. I can consistently bump the shoulder back form it's fired dimension by .002-.003 every time.

 

[fguffey]

Your issue has nothing whatever to do with headspace. Sizing nor cases have headspace. And, as mentioned, you cannot alter headspace by doing anything to a case. Headspace is a rifle manufacturing tolerance only.

Again, my cases do not have head space, that does not mean I cannot off set the length of the chamber with the length of the case from the shoulder of the case to the case head.

Jack Sprat, Your chamber is more like a chamber gage than a case gage, I make chamber gages with case head protrusion, I noticed Wilson is now selling a gage with case head protrusion and a cap with a dial indicator. My opinion it is a better system as long as the reloader keeps with case head protrusion in their chamber.

F. Guffey

 

[kingmt]

I can see a very slight difference with my naked eye but I didn't measure it I could measuse it with a good metal rule and feeler gauges I think. the one with the primer is a case fired from it,and the other two are dummy rounds

.002"filler gauge would be very thin but yes you could do it with one & a straight gauge. You could look for light to pass through also.

ETA: I use cigarette rolling papers for disposable .002" filler gauges & printer paper for .004".

 

[Bart B.]

My opinion it is a better system as long as the reloader keeps with case head protrusion in their chamber.

Doesn't about 2/10ths inch of the back end of a rimless cartridge stick out of the chamber into the bolt?