Hearing Damage: .40 S&W vs .44 Special?

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You need to have your hearing checked by a professional, you can also go online and find hearing loss audio sights that you can plug in good head phones and listen for the high tones, you will be shocked what you can 't hear.

Also using 33db muffs and combining 31 db plugs is the best you can do, but it doesn't doulble the protection it just gives and extra layer, you might get 34db combined.

Another interesting note is that the US military stopped giving disability claims to vets who suffer hearing damage in military service, another example of the government screwing vets.
 
Be aware that the internet sites offering free hearing tests are only as good as your computer's soundcard. Many home computers will not go anywhere near the upper frequencies that are required to determine hearing losses accurately. Neither will most headphones. So even if your tests shows you have hearing loss above 10 khz. it may or may not be true.
 
Another interesting note is that the US military stopped giving disability claims to vets who suffer hearing damage in military service, another example of the government screwing vets.

Wow, so not being able to hear is not as bad as PTSD? I wish we could give the troops those ear plugs that let your hear normal, but block out loud sounds such as gunfire.
 
I can still hear those high pitch ring tones that we used to use in high school that teachers couldn't hear. I would only go to the DR for my hearing if it affected my daily life in any way.

As I said I don't recommend shooting without plugs but I would certainly not chose my HD gun solely because of noise, this makes 0 sense to me. If you have to shoot your HD gun in your home it is a LIFE OR DEATH situation. I do understand that when you are shooting for pleasure it would be dumb not to use plugs and muffs.

Ben I agree the government is screwing vets, and that hearing should be covered but don't underestimate the power of PTSD. I would rather be near deaf than suffer from my stress condition. It can be completely crippling, only those who have experienced it could understand. And I can't even imagine how hard it must be for the troops coming back after seeing and doing some horrible things.
 
Hearing injured and altered over time (slowly) is one thing...Having it done quickly/injury can be pretty upsetting (as in war)...The vets are getting shafted to be honest:eek:

Many levels of loss and similar with the PTSD mentioned...One you never recover from:(

Regards
 
Also using 33db muffs and combining 31 db plugs is the best you can do, but it doesn't doulble the protection it just gives and extra layer, you might get 34db combined.

Right, you're ultimately limited by the amount of sound that travels right through your skull and into your ears. That's probably why eliminating another 31 dB with plugs doesn't actually result in nearly as much attenuation inside the ear--you can only reduce in the area around your ears unless your hearing protection equipment completely encapsulates your entire body.

Another interesting note is that the US military stopped giving disability claims to vets who suffer hearing damage in military service, another example of the government screwing vets.

I won't debate that vets are getting screwed by the government like they always are, but the reasoning here is that troops ought to use the hearing protection that is provided, which a lot of them refuse to do.

I wish we could give the troops those ear plugs that let your hear normal, but block out loud sounds such as gunfire.

I thought they were being issued that type of hearing protection, and I heard that many won't use them because it does cut down on normal sounds somewhat (reducing their situational awareness). The thing is that after being exposed to gunfire unprotected, they probably can't hear any better without protection anyway.
 
Also using 33db muffs and combining 31 db plugs is the best you can do, but it doesn't doulble the protection it just gives and extra layer, you might get 34db combined.

your numbers are right but technically doubling up DOES double your protection, just not the dB reduction.

if you double the amount of noise-reduction the dB rating goes up by 3 (logarithm of 2). so 30dB muffs and 30 dB plugs=33dB overall reduction.
 
The thing is that after being exposed to gunfire unprotected, they probably can't hear any better without protection anyway.

Agreed. After the first few shots, or less, you're going to be in a much more limited auditory capacity than if you had kept them in in the first place.
 
your numbers are right but technically doubling up DOES double your protection, just not the dB reduction.

if you double the amount of noise-reduction the dB rating goes up by 3 (logarithm of 2). so 30dB muffs and 30 dB plugs=33dB overall reduction.

I'm no expert on hearing protection, but I've always thought that in mathematical terms the reduction multiplies the amplitude of the sound by a certain factor, which is equivalent to adding when dealing with logarithms. A single 30 dB layer of protection adds -30 dB to the sound amplitude, so that a 150 dB sound becomes a 120 dB sound. A second 30 dB layer would not magically subtract instead of multiply--it would also multiply the sound amplitude, theoretically resulting in 30+30=60 dB of protection.

My guess has always been that the problem here is that such simple mathematics does not fully account for physical reality. First of all, NRR ratings themselves are more complex than just a single number, although we can assume that they are here and still understand the underlying issue, which is that they are measured on a human head. So it's how much reduction you get while at the same time measuring any sound that gets in through other parts of the human body, particularly the skull, of course. If the skull attenuates by, say, 35 dB, then that's pretty much the limit of what can be accomplished with muffs and plugs (or both). Therefore, putting on 30 dB muffs over 30 dB plugs can only get closer to the theoretical maximum, perhaps resulting in a 34 dB rating, for example (just making these numbers up).

Or maybe I've got it wrong, too. Any experts here? :)
 
Why, when you go shoot even with very good protection there might be some injury still happening...Plugging up my ears with wax tightly and wearing best muffs, probably still some injury when shooting my 440 Corbon in DE:uhoh:

Children who are cringing even with hearing protection is a clue:eek: I feel the parents who take kids to range and give them plugs to protect, should not be allowed to shoot :what: Criminal to be honest:(
 
Children who are cringing even with hearing protection is a clue I feel the parents who take kids to range and give them plugs to protect, should not be allowed to shoot Criminal to be honest

They've got it better than I did. When my dad took me to the range as a little kid, which wasn't often as per my request, I wouldn't have ANY hearing protection. He wondered why I was scared of the guns and didn't want to shoot. That anti-hearing protection generation is something else.
 
Or maybe I've got it wrong, too. Any experts here?

I don't call myself an "expert" but I may the closest thing we've got. :eek: And you are correct in the essentials. ExMachina is just a hopeless optimist. :)
 
I don't call myself an "expert" but I may the closest thing we've got. And you are correct in the essentials. ExMachina is just a hopeless optimist.

haha, true. however, i'd say that you're the optimist here since you're agreeing that30dB rated muffs and 30dB rated ear plugs worn together give you a combined protection of 60 dB.

here's a good post:
Many good/correct things have been said about noise. I was an Certified Industrial Hygienist by profession but have been retired/disabled for twenty years, so I'm not up on the latest and haven't tried to keep up.

One thing that hasn't been mentioned is there are two different types of noise, continuous and impact. The NRRs you see on hearing protection devices are for continuous noise, not impact, and gunshot noise is impact noise.

A NRR is arrived at using specified testing methods and is really useful only in comparing HPDs.

I believe the OSHA Hearing Conservation Amendment allows only one subtraction, but OSHA laws don't apply to most of us at shooting ranges. Putting muffs over plugs is effective for our purposes, tho.

It's a 3dB doubling. 30dB times two is 33dB. It's an easy calculation on modern calculators. Divide the dB by 10. Raise 10 to that power. Sum all the numbers and take the log. Multiply the log by 10. Remember, decibel means a tenth (deci) of a bel. The numbers are related to each other similar to Richter scale or pH numbers.
 
haha, true. however, i'd say that you're the optimist here since you're agreeing that30dB rated muffs and 30dB rated ear plugs worn together give you a combined protection of 60 dB.

That's not what I meant in my post. I meant that if the muffs and plugs themselves really, literally attenuated by 30 dB each, then their combined attenuation would be 60 dB. It's like turning down the volume on a preamplifier by 30 dB, and then by 30 dB again--the result is 60 dB less than before, not 33 dB less. The latter wouldn't make any physical or mathematical sense.

Then I said that NRR ratings are NOT merely how much these devices attenuate on their own, as we might assume at first, but are based instead on the relative level of the sound measured at the ear to that of the outside, which is a very different thing because the human body also transmits outside sounds to the ear, thereby limiting how much reduction is possible. Therefore it never makes sense to add the NRR ratings of different devices together because they include things that are separate and independent of the devices themselves.


Frankly, I'm not sure what to make of this. :confused: Physically, the 30 dB NRR of each device takes into account the sound that leaks in through the body, which means that the actual attenuation of the device must be greater. Together the muffs and plugs add up to a pretty massive amount of innate attenuation (more than just 60 dB), which then gets mostly "wasted" because you always have to add in the same amount of leakage through the body, resulting in only a slight (but useful) improvement when doubling up (usually a few dB).

The post you've referenced offers no realistic physical explanation of this complex issue, and focuses instead on simple mathematics, which I've demonstrated to be inadequate. Furthermore, the math does not match the physical reality because it makes it seem as though each device subtracts some absolute amount of sound rather than attenuating them by a multiplicative factor, and that just ain't right. If I had to guess, I would say that the coincidence that 3 dB happens to be a good rule-of-thumb value for the improvement offered by doubling up on protection is causing confusion by making people mistakenly think that it's how sound attenuation works in a mathematical sense.

The underlying truth is far more complicated, but I think it should be sufficient to say that the human body itself is a major limiting factor in how effective devices such as muffs and earplugs can be, and it's probably fairly safe to say that doubling up coincidentally results in reducing the energy of the sound by half or 3 dB. Matters would be different and probably much simpler both physically and mathematically if one's entire body were encapsulated by such devices, but that's hardly practical, obviously.
 
Also using 33db muffs and combining 31 db plugs is the best you can do, but it doesn't double the protection it just gives and extra layer, you might get 34db combined.

I wear 33db muffs over plugs when shooting and it sure seems to block a whole lot more noise that either one alone. Thing is it seems I'm one of the relative few who doubles up -- I wouldn't shoot any other way (unless forced to in a defensive situation). It's obvious those not wearing muffs sure didn't double up. And I don't see many wearing the ultra-bulky sort of muffs I do, seeming to prefer slim & sleek with less protection.

Another interesting note is that the US military stopped giving disability claims to vets who suffer hearing damage in military service, another example of the government screwing vets.

How do troops protect their hearing? Perhaps the vets here can fill me in on the details. Do soldiers wear any type of hearing protection when going into a combat situation or anywhere they are likely to encounter gunfire? Of course, when in a war zone gun fire or explosives could be encountered anytime. If a .22 can do damage, just imagine what combat with automatic weapons must be like.:eek:
 
why not just carry a taser then? i guess you can tell im with the camp of i want stopping power and a gun i feel that i can shoot accurate rather then hearing damage. my hearing is already screwed from years of loud music/cars so if that constant ringing gets a little louder because im alive and so is my family, i can live with that just fine.

i say if you are so worried then just carry a knife
 
why not just carry a taser then? i guess you can tell im with the camp of i want stopping power and a gun i feel that i can shoot accurate rather then hearing damage.

Some quieter guns/calibers/loads may be just as effective as louder ones, so why not try to reduce hearing loss in addition?

my hearing is already screwed from years of loud music/cars so if that constant ringing gets a little louder because im alive and so is my family, i can live with that just fine.

My hearing is not screwed up, and if I can screw it up less while maintaining the same effectiveness in a defensive handgun, then I can live with that just fine.
 
Arguing about which center fire handgun round is going to be "safer" from a potential hearing damage/loss fear is a bit like arguing which boiling water will scald you worse - that from an electric stove or that from a gas stove. Bottom line is scalded is scalded, and every single handgun round is capable of sound energy levels more than sufficient to cause permanent hearing damage or loss from even a single exposure (whether that happens or to what extent is subject to far too many variables to say for certain what will happen for any given potential event).

To choose a round because it might leave you "less" deaf than another is meaningless.
 
To choose a round because it might leave you "less" deaf than another is meaningless.

I think that lower sound energy MAY cause less damage. If not, then too bad, but if it's true, then that would be preferable. Can you prove your apparent assertion that the level of sound energy makes no difference? Or are you saying that everybody who has hearing loss is equally deaf, with no difference whatsoever?
 
I'm saying that if you look at measured sound levels (as available from hearing health sites on the web, for example) of any center fire cartridge, they are all above the limits of what the doctors/experts say is sufficient to cause instant and permanent hearing loss or damage. Once you are over that threshold, you are talking, IMO, subtleties that are truly trivial for all practical purposes.

I know my own physician, who is also an avid shooter, told me (when I asked) that even a single 1s or less exposure to any of the sound levels we're talking about here can cause permanent damage or even outright loss. You are talking about sound levels ALL of which are way beyond the minimum levels considered safe for even very short term exposure.

e.g. http://www.freehearingtest.com/hia_gunfirenoise.shtml
 
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Does it really matter?.....It may just be me, but in a life and death situation the last thing I'm gonna worry about is damaging my hearing.
Both rounds are effective for sd, and I don't see a problem with worrying about his ears now, when choosing which one to buy.
That said, I agree with others saying they would both cause ear ringing and do some damage if 4 rounds were fired in a home.
 
This thread has been real funny. Reads like " I'll have a diet coke with my cheese burger please " type issue.

LMAO!!!!
 
Some quieter guns/calibers/loads may be just as effective as louder ones, so why not try to reduce hearing loss in addition?



My hearing is not screwed up, and if I can screw it up less while maintaining the same effectiveness in a defensive handgun, then I can live with that just fine.

part 1, yes a lower Db caliber would cause less damage, but again look at the Db readings posted, no matter what caliber you choose its still going to damage your hearing so its like saying potato or patato...

part 2, again, you are shooting a gun, even if you are not in a confined area, are going to cause permenent damage

so you drink a diet with a happy meal?
 
I'm saying that if you look at measured sound levels (as available from hearing health sites on the web, for example) of any center fire cartridge, they are all above the limits of what the doctors/experts say is sufficient to cause instant and permanent hearing loss or damage. Once you are over that threshold, you are talking, IMO, subtleties that are truly trivial for all practical purposes.

I understand what you're saying, but you're only considering the simple case of a shooter who is obviously nearby his own gun. What about other family members who may be in another room and/or some distance away? Perhaps a caliber that is 6 dB quieter than another, for example, would not cross the threshold of instant and permanent hearing damage (for a transient sound) for them, even if there is no avoiding it for you.

This thread has been real funny. Reads like " I'll have a diet coke with my cheese burger please " type issue.

LMAO!!!!

Isn't that still better than having a milkshake with one's cheeseburger, though? Or is everything in your world either black or white, all or nothing?

so you drink a diet with a happy meal?

If it would help some, then why not? I guess quite a few people look at things as all or nothing.... :scrutiny:
 
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