Heavy safes in a residence?

[BSA1]

My two biggest concerns are burglary and fire protection.


However, I do worry about the threat posed by grinders and pry bars while the safe is sitting in its location. I do have tools of this sort at my house, and a burglar could conceivably find these if they were in my home for any length of time.

Why not lock your tools up in a job box that most contractors use?

I have to reiterate for the cost and hassles of doing a basement job, you should really price out a small room addition to the home. A poured 10x10 rebar reinforced cement room off the back or side of your house. I'd suspect that it would be better and more cost efficient and better option than trying to get a safe into the basement.

Safe rooms are becoming very common especially in the Midwest for tornado protection.

A safe room could also be built in the basement. Remember if you build it in one corner of the basement you only have to add two walls.

There is one design I have seen on the Internet that is all steel and made in sections. It would be a lot easier to move it and it can be assembled in the basement.

Where does the water go when the fire department turns the hoses on a house?

Into the basement.

Good overlooked point. I have not experienced a fire in our house but my basement has flooded several times due to the sump pump quit working due to power failure during heavy storms. We didn’t have deep water but water throughout the basement which is a real pita especially when the carpet gets soaked. 1/8” to ¼” isn’t much until you have to move and lift things off of the floor in order to dry everything out. If I were to put a safe in the basement I would first build a concrete base several inches high for the safe to sit on.

If I was adding a safe room though I would go this route. Try thinking outside the “box” for a minute. You want to be below ground but the stairs won’t handle the weight and you like the idea of the garage but weather and tools kept in the garage are concerns. Have a storm shelter installed in your garage. They are a novel and easy solution.

Installation is easy. The contractor cuts through the garage floor, digs a hole large enough for the prebuild storm shelter, sets the shelter in the hole, backfills and pours concrete around the shelter to match the garage floor.

The really neat features are;

It has a flat entrance so you can drive and park your car over it.

Get a old piece of plywood with oil stains from drippings from the car and lay it over the entrance. Not only will it totally hide the entrance but it will look like the owner is just trying to keep the garage floor clean.

It will be easy to run electricity into the room so you can have lighting and power for a dehumidifier.

Keep the garage door closed when you use the room and no one will be the wiser.

It is big enough for a lot of guns, ammo, etc. You can have the interior custom built to have storage rack and shelves in place of a bench.

It is fire proof although I don't know how water tight the entrance is. But if you have your guns off the floor in wall mounted rack they will be easy to get to if your garage gets destroyed in fire.

Hey you can use it in the event of a tornado. And stay dry to boot.



This company offers both steel safe rooms and garage storm shelters.

http://smartsheltersinc.com/tornado-storm-shelters/

 

[oneounceload]

Typically, 1/3 of the weight is in the door. If the door is removed, that makes it lighter (and thinner) to maneuver down stairs. One that uses a poured slurry inside the walls is also initially lighter to install.

 

[cdk8]

I am contemplating purchasing a safe. It seems like the AmSec safes are highly recommended. However, where to locate it is the concern, as addressed in the previous threads.

Possible locations:

1) Basement: However, difficult to get down to, stairs go half way down, and then you reach a landing and they turn 90 degrees.

2) Garage: Easy to get into and out of, flimsy garage door is the only barrier to getting to safe, no burglar alarm triggered, which is NOT the case with the basement or rest of the house.

3) First floor of the house: More secure than garage, much easier to get to than the basement; HOWEVER, no portion of the house is on a slab, it entirely is above the basement, so, in the event of a devastating fire, the safe comes crashing down into the basement. So, what would YOU do?

I'm no expert here so consider this my personal opinion.

AmSec has MASSIVE variation within their product lines, ranging from safes built so light they do not even quality for the RSC testing to safes that are TL-30x6 and capable of housing contents upwards of half a million dollars. In between that, AmSec has everything from base RSCs to beefier RSCs to B-rate to C-rate to TL-15 to TL-30. Do you know which AmSec model(s) you are considering?

IMO this is a good starting point to answer the question of where to install...starting at your driveway or where the unloading from a lift gate will happen, take a video of the different possible routes to the location(s) where you will want to store the safe. Then that vid can be uploaded to a private YT link or just taken and given to the people who do the install. Once they know what model you want, they will know the size and weight. They may contact you back for specific measurements of certain areas so they can be sure that their equipment can safely get the safe to where you want it to be without causing any damage in the process. If there is any irregularity that the video does not show, verbally note it in the video. If it cannot be installed where your first preference is, this increases the chance that you will know this in advance rather than winding up in a situation where you have to choose a new placement on-the-fly. Additionally, this may help you get the best idea on exactly how much it will cost to do the install, and for the company it helps them give you as competitive of a price as possible. I do recommend going with an AmSec authorized dealer, or an authorized dealer of another respectable brand, preferably from a company that handles mainly safes. It is sometimes a little more but IMO worth it. These safe experts not only ensure the install is done right and without damage, but they can assist you with adding layered security countermeasures to make the safe even more capable, and you will make a relationship with someone in the industry who can do service on your safe (periodically, they do require preventive services) and will be able to troubleshoot any issues should they arise. They are also the people to talk to regarding how heavy of a safe can be safety be placed where when not on solid ground. Also, by having this video you can easily send it to various sellers in the area along with the specific safe you want and request a "delivered and installed" price. Within the industry, the term "white glove service" is often used to describe indoor deliveries, but be sure to clarify what comes with it because not every seller defines white glove service the same way, and some difficult installs may have upcharges.

If you are looking at something such as an AMVAULT (the HS is more or less a gun safe version of the TL-30x6 AMVAULT), I would not worry too much about putting it in the garage because, 1) it's one mean safe to break into, and 2) you can now find pretty good basic DIY security systems for dirt cheap you could wire up for your garage, including ones that can use a cell or sat dialout. If you do put it in a garage and others can sometimes see into it as they drive or walk by, building a faux wooden cabinet around the safe can give the impression that all you have is a plain cabinet and it's nothing worth breaking into...

The AMVAULT is a 2 hour UL 350 fire safe at a test temp of 1850F. I've only seen a few images of how these safes did with intense fires, but from what I have seen I feel they gave excellent performance. The UL 350 means that the safe's inner temp did not exceed 350F during the test. This rating is intended to protect paper documents. Like other UL 350 safes, if you want the safe to give fire protection for more delicate items such as electronics, you will want to get a secondary container that goes inside the UL 350 safe itself.


edit: One other thing to note regarding fire resistance. The AmSec BF series gun safes (that is, the AmSec BF-7250, 7240, 6636, 6030, 6032, 6024, and the HD versions of each) also have a 2 hour fire rating. However, the test temp is only 1200F and the company doing the testing is NOT the UL (Intertek). They claim to follow UL procedure specified in UL 72 spec. The problem is that if this was a UL test, the way I understand it is that in order to gain the 2 hour UL 350 rating this safe would need to survive a furnace temp of 1850F (but I could be wrong here?). In some cases, house fires can exceed 1200F.

The smaller B-rate advertised BF series (that is, the AmSec BF-1512, 1716, and 2116) have a 1 hour UL 350 rating at 1700F, and the specs indicate that this version of the BF line likely uses more fireproof material than the BF gun safes (it also uses more side armor.) Additionally, the smaller B-rate BF's are considerably closer to the ground. These safes may fare better in a fire than the BF gun safes. Additionally, I am not clear as to if the BF safes have been subjected to a drop test or not.

The implication is that while the 2 hour fire rating of the BF gun safes appears similar to the 2 hour rating on the AMVAULT, I think it is very unlikely that the BF Gun Safes could attain a 2 hour/1850F UL 350 rating. They may not even be able to attain a 1 hour/1700F UL 350 rating?

 

[orpington]

Recently, a historic tavern nearby burnt down, but it did not burn to the ground, even though it was a total loss. The stone outer walls still stand, and the first floor remains fairly intact, and I think the fire lasted 1 1/2 hrs to cause this damage. So, less than the 2 hours for which these safes are usually rated, which is encouraging. Also, it seems to me, even in devastating fires, usually the fire department manages to save much of the first floor and basement, although this does not mean that the floor would not be sufficiently weakened, causing the safe to crash into the basement.

The best safes are rated such that they do not exceed 350. This still is fairly hot, causing melting of composite grips, damage to wood finish, etc. Has anyone thought of, or is there available, a cooling device, that is battery operated, that one could place in their safe that is triggered when temperatures exceed something like 150 F? Given my observations, and those of the safe companies, too, a fire would likely not be in one given location for anywhere near two hours, so if the battery lasted only 12 to 24 hrs, this would likely be sufficient.

 

[a1abdj]

The best safes are rated such that they do not exceed 350. This still is fairly hot, causing melting of composite grips, damage to wood finish, etc. Has anyone thought of, or is there available, a cooling device, that is battery operated, that one could place in their safe that is triggered when temperatures exceed something like 150 F?

This is why UL ratings are important. Unfortunately, there is currently no gun safe on the market with a UL fire rating. Even more unfortunately, most gun safes will not perform as advertised.

150 degrees has been thought of, and has been around for many years. Data safes. Not only are they rated for the lower internal temperatures, but they are also rated to expose the contents to a limited amount of moisture.

 

[Drail]

I would place the safe on the first floor and install a post or two under the floor is necessary. I would never put a safe in a basement.

 

[joem1945]

X-Rap; 2 ton is substantial for sure, how many guns does that safe hold, do you have any concern with thieves just cutting into it with a blade attached to a hand grinder?

This was a old money vault and is burgler resistant hard plate steel. Don't know how many guns it holds. Empty it was big enough for me to stand in. Wish I could find another. If I did I'd just buy more guns.

 

[cdk8]

The best safes are rated such that they do not exceed 350. This still is fairly hot, causing melting of composite grips, damage to wood finish, etc. Has anyone thought of, or is there available, a cooling device, that is battery operated, that one could place in their safe that is triggered when temperatures exceed something like 150 F? Given my observations, and those of the safe companies, too, a fire would likely not be in one given location for anywhere near two hours, so if the battery lasted only 12 to 24 hrs, this would likely be sufficient.

While I have not heard of such device, there are containers one can put inside of a UL 350 safe to further augment the fire protection. I generally store electronics and more delicate items inside this, and then place it inside my main UL 350 safe. While this is not going to give the level of protection that a UL 125 or 150 will give, it is still an improvement over the base safe's protection alone and for a reasonable price. For me personally, it's an acceptable compromise for me needs and preferences.
http://www.honeywellstore.com/products/honeywell-1104-molded-fire-water-chest.htm

At one point I was considering purchasing a UL 150 or UL 125 safe. These safes tend to be pricy, but sometimes they can be found used at an affordable price and at a size that makes them practical for use as a gun safe. With that said, I was unable to find a UL 125 with a TL-15 rating (I'm not sure if they exist) and so I wound up with safe that had a UL 350.

I wish the UL testing and safe makers would provide consumers with a little more data. Specifically, 1) how long it takes the temp itself to rise in increments (for example, what the inside temp is every 15 minutes during testing), and 2) how different the internal temp is between the bottom versus the top of the safe (since with some taller safes an internal temperature spread of the better part of 100 degrees between the top and bottom isn't unusual.)