Question for any PRO safe guys

Status
Not open for further replies.
I've asked before and never got an answer to the question of how one handles the situation of a gun to the head of a loved one.

This is what I personally do, but I doubt there is any correct answer for this question...

I keep a loaded gun in each of my safes in a position that is accessible, yet hidden, along with a Cold Steel edged weapon made for a last ditch o-**** SD scenario for when is closer quarters.

If someone is crazy enough to hold a gun to the head of another person and demand the safe be opened, then I have to assume that once the safe is open they are crazy enough to kill everyone present once they feel they are no longer required to accomplish their immoral deeds. Consequently, my actions would be determined by this belief.

With that said, I think most safe attacks occur when the criminal knows the owner is not present. While I have heard about and seen the end result on quite a few safe attacks, I've never heard a first hand account of a criminal using this method to gain access to the safe. I could be wrong?
 
I think most safe attacks occur when the criminal knows the owner is not present. While I have heard about and seen the end result on quite a few safe attacks, I've never heard a first hand account of a criminal using this method to gain access to the safe. I could be wrong?

More common in commercial settings than residential settings, but it does happen fairly frequently. It's usually not random, as the bad guy has to know you have a safe in the first place.
 
Fella's;

I had to double check something before I replied to some information posted above regarding AMSEC's BF series RSC's.

The company has split the line into three categories: BF, BF HD, and BF gun. In no case does the plate steel in the door exceed 1/2 inch in thickness. The door itself will be thicker, but the steel plate remains at 1/2" except for some of the larger gun units, where the plate steel has been reduced to 3/8". The side walls never did & do not now contain any 1/4" plate steel, this is what prevents the units from being considered true safes.

The smaller, non-firearms units do carry the U.L. 1 hour thermal protection rating, and that's excellent. However none of the gun units do. Those have an Intertek Labs rating of 1200 degrees f for two hours. As with all of the independent lab thermal tests, I don't see the test parameters being published.

900F
 
More common in commercial settings than residential settings, but it does happen fairly frequently. It's usually not random, as the bad guy has to know you have a safe in the first place.

Interesting. I guess I've not heard stories about forcing employees to open safes at gunpoint since I almost exclusively served residential consumers. I have however seen quite a few attacks when the owner is not present, and most of the people I've spoken to have said the exact same thing as you, which is that they do not think it was random.

A standard procedure was to advise all clients that they should not have the safe out in the open, it should be located in an area where strangers inside the house (e.g., contractors) are unable to see, it should be professionally installed so that the criminal is forced to attack the safe front on where the armor is thickest, and that posting certain stickers on a car can make one into a target. Obviously like anyone in the business, layered security was always stressed.
 
Fella's;

I had to double check something before I replied to some information posted above regarding AMSEC's BF series RSC's.

The company has split the line into three categories: BF, BF HD, and BF gun. In no case does the plate steel in the door exceed 1/2 inch in thickness. The door itself will be thicker, but the steel plate remains at 1/2" except for some of the larger gun units, where the plate steel has been reduced to 3/8". The side walls never did & do not now contain any 1/4" plate steel, this is what prevents the units from being considered true safes.

The smaller, non-firearms units do carry the U.L. 1 hour thermal protection rating, and that's excellent. However none of the gun units do. Those have an Intertek Labs rating of 1200 degrees f for two hours. As with all of the independent lab thermal tests, I don't see the test parameters being published.

900F


Buddy, that aint spot on.

The current AmSec BF 1512, 1716, and 2116 are B-rate safes that have been tested and passed the RSC test. Like many safes that use plate steel and composites, the BF's walls are 1/8th inch plate, composite material, and a second 1/8 inch plate. In other words, 1/4 inch of steel and about 2 inches of composite fill. This conforms to B-rate construction. The door is 1/2 inch steel plus composite material, plus a hardplate. Why would AmSec use two 1/8 inch plates instead of a single 1/4 inch plate? Because it makes defeating the safe more difficult and allows the use of poured composites with is superior to other fire resistant methods, plus it adds to the safe's armor by making it harder to penetrate. They are hardly the only company to do that. These safes carry a 1 hour UL 350 rating at a test temp of 1700 degrees. The larger 3416 is only 30 minutes.
http://www.amsecusa.com/fire-safes/bf-safes/


The gun versions of the BF safes contain either a 1/2 inch or 3/8 inch door, but weaker side walls, and the company certifying the fire resistance on those safes is not the UL. The amount of DryLite composite fill used is LESS than the above BF line. The walls on these are only an 11 gauge and a 16 gauge plate. A relatively new upgraded BF gun safe version has more armor than the original, but less than the above smaller BF lines.

The weight tells a lot here. The BF6024 is 59.25" x 24" x 21" and weighs 720 pounds (this is one of the gun safe offerings in the BF line). The BF2116 is only 26.25 x 21.75 x 20.25 and it weighs 475 pounds (this is the smaller sized BF line of the B-rate offerings in that product family).

As I said previously, a good B-rate safe is a good choice for intermediate valuable storage. Is it a high security safe? Absolutely not. However, it's far from the joke of a safe that most gun safes are. They take quite a lot longer to gain access to. And as for the AmSec BF 1512, 1716, and 2116, these are tough safes for the money and by no means a false security safe. While they have passed the same RSC test that all other RSC safes have also passed, the construction of these safes are farrrrrrr superior to virtually all other RSCs. As RSC is only a certification with very loose building specs, the quality of safes that have passed the RSC test vary greatly. While most RSCs are quite easy to rapidly defeat with basic hand tools, a RSC-certified safe build to B-rate or C-rate specs will have little trouble keeping such attackers out for an extended period.

Names like Brown, Graffunder, Wilson, etc. sell B-rate safes. If these safes were a joke, companies as those would not be making them because those companies only make capable safes.
 
Last edited:
dk8;

What's not spot on is what you are passing out as valid information. The AMSEC BF series are not & never have been true U.L. rated safes. In order to be so rated all six surfaces have to be, at minimum, one-quarter inch thick solid plate steel. Go to the U.L. website & review the specs. The AMSEC BF series has never met that requirement. Combined thickness, ie., two 1/8" pieces of steel sandwiching a thermal protection layer don't meet the standard of plate steel. It does make for a rigid form structure containing the drylite insulator, but it does not, in no way, enhance the forcible entry protection. You trip yourself up in saying that they've met the RSC standard. The RSC standard is for Residential Security Containers, not true safes. You won't see an RSC pass sticker on the door of the safe deposit vault at your local main bank because it's gilding the lily. You won't see it on your jeweler's security safe, and you won't see it on the AMSEC HS safes either. Drylite insulation isn't very hard to penetrate, the concrete formulations used in the walls of many true safes will dull a drill bit in an extremely short time, world of difference between the two.

900F
 
What's not spot on is what you are passing out as valid information. The AMSEC BF series are not & never have been true U.L. rated safes. In order to be so rated all six surfaces have to be, at minimum, one-quarter inch thick solid plate steel. Go to the U.L. website & review the specs. The AMSEC BF series has never met that requirement. Combined thickness, ie., two 1/8" pieces of steel sandwiching a thermal protection layer don't meet the standard of plate steel. It does make for a rigid form structure containing the drylite insulator, but it does not, in no way, enhance the forcible entry protection. You trip yourself up in saying that they've met the RSC standard. The RSC standard is for Residential Security Containers, not true safes. You won't see an RSC pass sticker on the door of the safe deposit vault at your local main bank because it's gilding the lily. You won't see it on your jeweler's security safe, and you won't see it on the AMSEC HS safes either. Drylite insulation isn't very hard to penetrate, the concrete formulations used in the walls of many true safes will dull a drill bit in an extremely short time, world of difference between the two.


I NEVER have made any comparisons that have suggested that the BF (any of the three) is comparable in burglary resistance whatsoever to UL listed and tested burglary safes (that is, a TL-15 rating and above.)
As I said previously, a good B-rate safe is a good choice for intermediate valuable storage. Is it a high security safe? Absolutely not.

I have also NEVER said that the Drylite concrete pour is comparable in performance to high density composite material. Obviously DryLite is nowhere near as dense as what goes into a high-security safe, and it will not rapidly destroy tooling as the high density material will. But I disagree with your belief that DryLite serves zero security benefit.
Like Brown Safe, Graffunder uses a high density composite fill material on all of their offerings, in which they pour this material into the frame. This results in a composite safe with heavy plate steel armor. From both a fire protection and burglary protection standpoint, high-density composite material is a far superior design over other options.
the BF's walls are 1/8th inch plate, composite material, and a second 1/8 inch plate :::no mention of "high density":::

I am not disagreeing with you that a HS is worlds above a BF. And if I was saying that a BF provides comparable protection to the AMVAULT, that would be false information. But when putting things into perspective, the BF line can serve as an intermediate safe between base model gun safes and high security safes. Is the BF a good safe? For some applications, yes. For others, something beefier might be a better choice.

Which UL revision specifies that the (loose) specs for a B-rate must be using a single solid 1/4 inch plate rather than cumulative body thickness or laminated steel?
 
Last edited:
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top