Question for any PRO safe guys

[mgs1019]

I want to buy one of the following REAL safes for guns. Would appreciate your knowledgeable opinions...

NOT interested in RSC.

Narrowed down to Amsec and Graffunder...

I'm looking for TL-30 protection...With good fire protection.

As far as Amsec goes I want to make sure I'm understanding correctly. The RF6528 is a GOOD REAL SAFE. (TL-30) with good fire protection. ie... if any of the safe pros were to suggest a safe to their family...would this be one of them?

I'm also looking at the newer (i think) RFX703620 or RFX582820 it's a TL30x6 For the extra money is it worth upgrading to this for residential use? I don't want to pay for overkill... Just want to throw valuables in and maybe pass the safe down to kids after I'm gone... Any opinion on this x6 safe?

Finally, the Graffunder's are beautiful...but also expensive... This safe will be hidden in my basement...ie...I won't be showing it off... Is the security AND fire protection from a Graffunder miles better than an Amsec? Also, the fire rating was I believe 1hr @ 1780... How does that stack against the Amsec 2hr... is the 2hr at a lower temp? Also, What are the Graffunder's UL rated?

From what I've read, (I've been educating for a month) It seems like the safe guys would say Graffunder would win if money wasn't an option. Am I right about this? Which brand is more secure to burglary and fire? Out of these options, what would the safe guys put THEIR stuff in?

Again I'm looking for security first! with that in mind, can you help me choose?
Thanks very much!

 

[a1abdj]

It seems like the safe guys would say Graffunder would win if money wasn't an option. Am I right about this?

No.

But outside of that, for liability purposes, you should be discussing these questions with the entity selling you the safe.

 

[mgs1019]

understood... I was just trying to get a non biased opinion before going to a salesman. Let me ask, I'm on the east coast. can YOU sell to me? and deliver, and install?

 

[a1abdj]

I am one of the few companies that actually travels the entire US doing installation work, usually for the big stuff. It likely wouldn't be worth paying me to travel half way across the country to deliver something as simple as a commercial safe.

This brings us to how almost any non local company would arrange your safe delivery. A third party. I use other safe and vault companies, others use two men and a truck type outfits.

There should be plenty of local companies to do business with out that way. Many of them do not advertise, so you may need to do a little homework to track them down. Most of the brick and mortar businesses that sell this type of stuff have the ability to deliver and install it.

 

[col_temp]

HI,
a1abdj has some very good advice.

I was in your boat as well. I looked hard at Amsec, Superior Untouchable, and Brown, and Sturdy.
Fort Knox fell out of the running early as its overpriced and frankly not in the same class. Nice RSC and has some great features but not on the field we are talking about.

Here's my two cents, about what I've learned. Much of it from a1abdj (Frank) and Jim CB009f the other main guy for safes here on THR.

Superior matches the others in terms of steel. BUT uses standard fire board (Read drywall) for its fire protection. So while the fire protection of 4 layers is quite good adds absolutely nothing to the security by its self.

Sturdy is pretty good and give you lots of options, with upgrades its gets close to being in the same class as Graff, Brown, Superior, Amsec RF. But by the time you start adding those options your costs are getting into the same level as one of the better safes!

Amsec RF looks great on paper and frankly is a great safe But is really sandwiched steel sheets between drylight. Drylight from what I can tell is somewhere between Drywall and the concrete mixture Brown and Graff use. Probably closer to the concrete but is still not as strong as concrete mixture.
ALSO, to be a true Class B safe you are supposed to have a min .25 steel layer on the body. While the RF sums up to over .25 no sheet is more than .135. Hence its not a Class B safe.
ALSO, the RFX 58 or 70 are are more expensive or close in price to a Graff.

I tossed out Brown as well as the are true Class B/C safes but actually cost more than the Graff I am in the process of ordering.

Now I happen to live reasonable near the factory so shipping is going to be more reasonable and we happen to have several well known safe movers in the area.
BTW if you haven't found the thread by Trent, He has a great pictorial of the delivery of his Graffunder 7248. Search using his name as the author.

Frank/Jim feel free to correct anything I have said that is not quite right.

 

[leadcounsel]

Very happy Sturdy Safe owner.

I did a lot of comparison shopping and felt that Sturdy offered the most for my money when I purchased.

Lots of threads on the topic if you care to do some research.

 

[swede4198]

You might want to talk to a local safe company (not a store that only sells gun safes) to see what inventory they have that could be converted to a gun safe. I bought a double door security safe that had been converted that holds 30 guns, has a two hour fire rating, and weighs in at 2,000+ pounds. The steel is not measured in gauges but in inches. They often get trade ins that sit in inventory a long time that could be bought cheap. Mine was delivered 90 miles from the store, and installed for $1,400.

 

[HRnightmare]

I don't recall the model but my AMSEC was about $2k installed, has a lifetime fire, burglary or destruction warranty and a 90 min fire rating, had the strongest rated steel of any 36 gun safes in its class under about $7500.

I am more concerned with fire then burglary quite frankly. Only people that know about my gun collection are family and close friends. The safe is bolted to the concrete pad the house sits on so its not going anywhere unless by a person that really knows whay they are doing. It is also hidden behind a closet in an office in the back of my home. Some random meth head or crack monster looking for something to pawn for his next high is not going to have the intelligence or tools or ability to get to my guns. Best case is they put a small dent or scratch in the safe.

 

[kell490]

Do you really think any RSC safe is anywhere close to a TL-30 rated against burglary. The shear weight is an advantage. With LCD bore cameras so cheap now drill attacks is easier against RSC safe. I do like the idea of a glass re-lockers. My family owned a pawn shop for 30 years and we had 2 amsec TL30's one night they backed though the wall tied a strap around the TL-30 tried to pull it the tires spun.

 

[CB900F]

Mgs1019;

I'm prejudiced to the Graffunder, I sell them. In the vast majority of cases I've found I can quote a Graffunder of equal protective ability for less money than the competition. I have sold safes nationwide for many years, with many satisfied customers on this site. For your delivery, if you are in or near an urban area, it should be fairly easy to find an ALOA/SAVTA locksmith. ALOA is to locksmithing as the AMA is to medicine. SAVTA is the Safe And Vault Technician's Assoc. within ALOA. That type of shop should have the expertise and equipment to properly install a real safe in your home.

If I were you, I'd contact your insurance agent & have a serious discussion with that person as to the asset value you foresee in the safe and what the company considers proper protection for that value. Also contact the local fire department for typical response time to your address, presuming it's professional department. If it's a volunteer department, then you really should have a safe that meets the U.L. criteria.

900F

 

[Lord Teapot]

i don't bother with high dollar safes. any large safe will stop the average smash and grab which is 90% of your burglaries. no safe will stop someone who cased your house and waited for you to go to work for the day so they could spend a few hours inside with a good drill or torch. fire is the real concern imo, but even then if you position your safe against an exterior wall, that problem is solved unless a ton of jetfuel lands on your house.

 

[a1abdj]

no safe will stop someone who cased your house and waited for you to go to work for the day so they could spend a few hours inside with a good drill or torch

There are safes that will do exactly that.

 

[CB900F]

Fella's;

Says one of the people considered to be a PRO who's on site to Mr. Teapot. However, Mr. Teapot does point out why a layered defense can be a good idea. Things such as motion detectors, sirens, auto-dial to an outside party, dogs, and nosy neighbors can all contribute to your home's security. How far you want to go depends on the threat level and budget.

Myself, I'm rural and own a good Graffunder. My money's been put where my typing is.

900F

 

[cdk8]

The AmSec is nice but the Brown Safe HD is a superior product IMHO.

Brown's reputation is for incredible fit and finish and outstanding customer support. The HD is a plain jane safe...rather than paying for fancy cosmetics, you are purchasing a relatively plain safe and your money goes into getting an insane amount of armor. The HD's rating starts at a TL-15 and goes up from there. This allows buyers to purchase one of the finest safes in the world for a dramatically reduced price, but without any compromises in security/performance. These safes are known for being able to withstand the worst of fires.

I have little experience with Graffunder but obviously they have a very well respected name and I don't think you could go wrong with them. I can only imagine tho that the Graffunder has a fit and finish more like that of Brown Safe than AmSec as they have a reputation for outstanding fit and finish as well (nothing against AmSec...they make some really good products). Like Brown Safe, Graffunder uses a high density composite fill material on all of their offerings, in which they pour this material into the frame. This results in a composite safe with heavy plate steel armor. From both a fire protection and burglary protection standpoint, high-density composite material is a far superior design over other options.

Do note that even if you went with a C-rate Graffunder or Brown to save a little money/weight, these C-rate safes are tough as hell to defeat. A quality C-rate safe is a formidable force to be reckoned with, and the composite material that goes in these safes is super dense, super strong, and super hard on tooling.

If you want the absolute most ridiculous protection, you could even consider purchasing a used ISM or Chubb with a TRTL x6 rating...

I also think that when shopping safes in this tier it is worth seeing what is available used. The construction of these safes are so rock solid that they will outlast all of us. Sometimes one can find the safe they want for a lot cheaper this way.

Lord Teapot
i don't bother with high dollar safes. any large safe will stop the average smash and grab which is 90% of your burglaries. no safe will stop someone who cased your house and waited for you to go to work for the day so they could spend a few hours inside with a good drill or torch. fire is the real concern imo, but even then if you position your safe against an exterior wall, that problem is solved unless a ton of jetfuel lands on your house.

I disagree...I can open a safe measured in gauge in about 30 seconds using basic cordless tools from a hardware store. Cobalt bits go through the door like a hot knife through butter. Heck, a fire axe will defeat armor that skinny. Criminals are well aware of just how vulnerable the side armor on gun safes are. They know how to target it and defeat it very quickly.

Additionally, the fire proofing means on safes vary dramatically. In some cases, the materials are second class and will not provide ample protection in even minor fires. If someone gets a cheap safe, they should not expect that safe to provide protection in a bad fire. They are made with price in mind...not performance.

Depending upon the contents, high vulnerability to burglary or fire loss may not be an issue if the safe is defeated or destroyed. But if someone wants the safe that will keep everyone out, and will protect the contents in the most brutal of fires, investing in the right product will do just that. Ultimately, one gets what they pay for.

kell490
Do you really think any RSC safe is anywhere close to a TL-30 rated against burglary. The shear weight is an advantage. With LCD bore cameras so cheap now drill attacks is easier against RSC safe. I do like the idea of a glass re-lockers. My family owned a pawn shop for 30 years and we had 2 amsec TL30's one night they backed though the wall tied a strap around the TL-30 tried to pull it the tires spun.

I agree.

A RSC is a one-man attack with limited hand tools for 5 minutes. It's kind of a joke rating...and even more so given most RSC safes have super thin side walls.

A TL-15 or TL-30 is a 2-man attack with the finest of power tools and detailed schematics of the safe.

RSC safes are not safes IMO…they are locking low security containers with minimal burglary resistance. When they are used to house high value contents, it's a disaster waiting to happen..

 

[CB900F]

Fella's;

The AMSEC BF series is one of the top RSC's, particularly in the protection you get for the dollar. But, it's not a true safe & AMSEC doesn't market it as such. After all, the company does build true safes and very well knows the difference. What the BF series does is give the customer a true step up from the Liberty, Cannon, etc., etc., RSC without getting into the expense of a true safe.

Speaking of expense however, it's always been rather easy for me to beat the price of either the Brown or the AMSEC units with a Graffunder. And nobody's saying that brand is a second-rate unit.

900F

 

[X-Rap]

I've asked before and never got an answer to the question of how one handles the situation of a gun to the head of a loved one. I've read enough posts to see that some would fold for their dog or cat.
$1000 or $10,000 doesn't matter when the chips are down

 

[a1abdj]

I have never been overly impressed with what Brown offers for the money.

For those that require high security containers for their guns, there are several real safe options that can be had outfitted as a gun safe. Although the AMSEC BF series is often mentioned, they also have the HS line which includes TL-30 and TL30x6 rated gun safes.

All of that said, there are still options that are as secure/more secure than anything offered by Brown, Graffunder, or AMSEC, AND cost less. Not very many people actually need this type of security though, and the weights make residential installation difficult.

 

[kell490]

I would really like to get a TL-30 safe, but I'm willing to compromise and settle for a good RSC safe such as the Untouchable series by Superior. I will continue to have all my firearms insurance though the NRA. The Untouchable as a 5/8 steel think door and a 1/4" box. I can't afford a 10k safe which is TL30 and big enough to hold everything.

http://superiorgunsafes.com/products/theuntouchableseries.html

 

[Walkalong]

I've asked before and never got an answer to the question of how one handles the situation of a gun to the head of a loved one.

Then you open it for them and hope they don't kill you anyway.

RSCs and safes are for protection when you are not at home. If the buggers get the drop on you when you are there you're screwed.

Buy the best you can afford, keeping in mind the cost to worth ratio of what is being protected. Most of us cannot afford 5 or 6 grand for a big nearly burglar proof safe, and many don't need that much protection for our modest gun collections.

 

[CB900F]

X-Rap;

The answer to your question does not lie in the field of safes, rather it's in the layered defense scenario. What you need to do to prevent that situation from arising is covered with personal preparedness, and the training of the people in the household, not the container.

900F

 

[Walkalong]

Yes.

 

[X-Rap]

The answer to your question does not lie in the field of safes, rather it's in the layered defense scenario. What you need to do to prevent that situation from arising is covered with personal preparedness, and the training of the people in the household, not the container.

That's a response made for someone who probably lives in a place where they don't need a safe or doesn't have much to protect.
I raise this issue because I believe many people don't take the question into account when they plan home security of any kind.
There is much talk about hardening entry doors and windows, safes verses RSC's and alarm systems but unless you plan to live in a bubble and only move about outside with your family as if it were a tactical team we remain vulnerable to the simplest and least costly tool of all.
My kids grew up walking to and from school, as a family we came and went as we pleased. I never operated in a cash heavy business or flaunted my possessions but I'm sure if someone would have wanted to get to me or what I have it would have been no problem to do exactly what I have asked.
My intent is only to make people aware of the potential hazard they may be bringing upon themselves and family by their occupation, exposure of their hobbies, or simply having nice things like jewelry and having the ultimate safe or security system is of little value if a criminal is ruthless enough to attack your family.

 

[Walkalong]

Good point, because that is certainly part of it, don't advertise that you have a safe full of guns, or jewelry, or cash, etc, etc.

In fact, don't look like you have much at all. If you have all the obvious toys and live flashy, sooner or later, someone is likely to take notice.

 

[a1abdj]

When you are storing valuables, gun safe sized safes are not the best option. They are very difficult to hide. Cash, metals, and jewelry take up a relatively small amount of space. You would be better off using a lessor gun safe for the guns, and putting the valuables in a smaller dedicated burglary safe. This keeps the cost down, puts you in a realistic weight range for in home installation, and is much easier to hide.

 

[cdk8]

Fella's;

The AMSEC BF series is one of the top RSC's, particularly in the protection you get for the dollar. But, it's not a true safe & AMSEC doesn't market it as such. After all, the company does build true safes and very well knows the difference. What the BF series does is give the customer a true step up from the Liberty, Cannon, etc., etc., RSC without getting into the expense of a true safe.

Speaking of expense however, it's always been rather easy for me to beat the price of either the Brown or the AMSEC units with a Graffunder. And nobody's saying that brand is a second-rate unit.

900F

AmSec has TWO different BF safes. Technically one is classified as "AmSec BF" and the other "AmSec BF Gun Safe". One (the standard BF) is smaller than a gun safe. This safe HAS passed the RSC test, but it is also built to a B-rate design and it is filled with Dry Lite. In other words, this safe uses a ½ inch thick steel door, and ¼ inch steel on the body, in addition to a composite material. Have you ever drilled one? It’s night and day compared to a RSC that meets minimum UL standards. Why test a B-rate safe to a joke test like RSC? Most likely for insurance purposes and simply because it improves marketing.

The AmSec BF line that is made in gun safe sizes is not as heavily armored, the fire rating is not done by the UL, and the specs themselves are different from the smaller sized BF line.

Can you price a 20 cubic foot TL-15 Graffunder with a UL Group 2M or Group 1/1R lock for under 4 grand?