Help! Colt 1917 45 Auto Rim Revolver!

[MrPhil]

Today I saw my first Colt 1917 45 Auto Rim revolver, 4 or 5 inch barrel. It seems to be mechanically sound, cosmetically rough. No rust or pitting, blue almost gone. Grips are pretty beat. It comes with several hundred cases, all of them webbed, 100 of them brand new, a bunch of half-moon clips, and some old loaded ammo. The shop is asking $495.
I am ignorant about this gun. What questions should I be asking? What is a fair price for it?
Thanks for your help.

 

[munk]

I think that's 150 high, but maybe I'm spoiled.



munk

 

[stans]

Is this a 1917 Army or 1917 civilian Colt? Assuming only 30% of the original finish remains, the Army model would be worth about $295 while a civilian model would be worth about $350. Both were available only with a 5 1/2 inch barrel.

 

[Josey]

? I don't know where you folks are getting your lowball prices. I guesstimate that revolver and the extra moon clips at $750.00. I recently saw one without grips and a rough WWII park finish go for $585.00.

 

[Dr.Rob]

Those old Colts can be tricky price wise... best to get on Gunbroker or Guns America and comparison shop the actual selling prices.

 

[MrPhil]

Thanks for your replies. Army vs civilian? No clue, I am now only slightly less ignorant than my first post. Where is a good Colt forum? This dealer tends to know what he's got. And asks an extra 30%. At least, I'll know where I can go.
Do any of you have one of these? And, if so, do you shoot it?

 

[RON in PA]

I don't think that there is a good forum for Colt revolvers on the web.

Colts tend to be expensive just because they are Colts. A nice speciman can easily go for $750. The price you quoted reflects its lack of original finish. A civilian version would be marked "New Service".

If the revolver was GI it should have "US ARMY Model 1917" on the butt and "US Property" stamped on the barrel.

 

[Josey]

I had to chime back in. I have one that is marked New Service on the barrel, has silver Colt medallions and checkering on the grips, period correct US acceptance marks in the proper places and in actuality is listed as a USA reject by Colt. It is a 45 ACP with the steps in the chambers. Some models don't have them and they affect price.

 

[stans]

The Colt Forums

 

[Old Fuff]

MrPhil:

Sometimes to get information you have to provide some. As a beginning post an abreviated serial number. On your gun, a Colt New Service, the serial number is stamped on the frame under the barrel. To see and read it you will have to swing out the cylinder first.

On U.S. Army guns a number, and the model 1917 will be stamped on the butt. This is the army's number, but it is not the serial number.

A serial number should be posted as such: 1479xx with "xx" representing the last two numbers. This will provide enough information so that your gun can be identified, while at the same time not being specific.

When possible, post a picture - which can go a long way toward identifying the gun.

While New Service Colt's are a popular (and therefore often expensive) collectables, many things can effect the value - such as, has it been refinished? Are all of the parts (especially the grips) original? Is it a commercial or military model? What is it's overall condition?

These are rather hard questions to answer when one hasn't actually inspected the gun.

As for shooting it. There is probably no reason not too do so unless it's a rare collectable - and that unlikely. You do need to buy "clips" to hold the .45 ACP cartridges. Otherwise the extractor won't extract them in in some cases the cartridge may fall through and drop out of the chamber.

 

[blfuller]

Not exactly the same revolver but I purchased a Colt New Service in 38-40 with a 7 1/2" barrel and original hard rubber grips, in fairly nice shape. Included was a set of RCBS dies, 50 empty cases a set of Pachmayer grips and 500 lead bullets for $550.

 

[simonp]

I passed on a Colt 1917 (Military) about a month ago, actually I thought it would sit in the shop for a week and then I could lowball it but missed out, oh well. Point being it had almost no finish left, grips somewhat beaten up and worst of all the previous owner had dremmeled his drivers lic. # into the barrel. Gun sold for $300 in that condition I had planned on offering $200 for it, refinishing it and keeping as a shooter. They are getting more and more expensive unfortunately

 

[Bart Noir]

Hiya Old Fuff....

"A serial number should be posted as such: 1479xx with "xx" representing the last two numbers. This will provide enough information so that your gun can be identified, while at the same time not being specific."

That brings to mind a question I've had for a long time. Why should we be reluctant to post the entire serial number?

Also, one of the posts makes me ask: Did Colt make a N.S. that had rebated chambers that will fire only the .45 Auto Rim? Thanks for even more info.

Bart Noir

 

[Old Fuff]

Bart Noir:

Some people feel that posting a complete number might lead to some unspecified problems in the future. While this may, or may not be overblown I respect their right to keep the full number confidential if they want too. Usually if I have everything but the last two numbers I can find all of the information I'd find if I had the complete number. Those that don't care can post the full number if they want too.

So far as I know Colt never rebated any chambers - in anything except rimfires. As for the .45ACP/.45 Auto Rim cartridges are concerned the Auto Rim case has an extra thick rim and so will work in those revolvers that are headspaced to take a clip, plus the thickness of the .45 ACP case rim. They will not work in a revolver chambered for .45 Colt. While you could make a cylinder with rebated chambers for a single action revolver, the same thing wouldn't work in a double action if you wanted to use clips and .45 Auto rounds.

Clear as mud??

 

[MrPhil]

But . . . am I a collector?

Today I visited the Colt 1917 again. It is an Army issue. Still has the ring attached to the butt. Somebody carved their initials in the right grip . . . a while ago. The bore is in good shape, everything is tight. Double action trigger pull is smooth and heavy. Single action is also heavy. The front sight has been filed. The screw heads are a little buggered. The Colt stamping along the top of the barrel is just about worn off. All else seems original, but somebody has been at it recently. Oil is seeping from the side plate.
As I previously stated it comes with a bunch of half moon clips (20) for .45 ACP. It also comes with several hundred .45 Auto Rim cases. As Old Fuff noted, it is not rebated. The .45 Auto Rim case rims are very thick, filling the generous head space.
My real problem is this: purchasing this gun will change me from gun "accumulator" to gun "collector". Everything I currently own is pretty recent. My oldest piece is a Smith 14-3 (a definite shooter). All get shot a bunch. This would be my first gun with value beyond its functionality. How far can one go in checking out an old gun?
By the way, I looked at the serial number and completely forgot about writing it down!

 

[Old Fuff]

If it's a U.S. Army Model 1917, and so marked on the butt, it was made between 1917 through 1919.

A Colt New Service is sort of a nice gun to own. You wonder what kind of stories it might tell. So far as the gun goes I'd be concerned about the front sight being filed down, and the buggered screw slots indicate someone's been inside that probably shouldn't have been.

$500.00 or so will buy you a target grade S&W model 25, or a stainless 625 (used of course). These are much better "shooters" then a beat New Service. A Colt Shooting Master is another matter, but that's not the question here. The brass and clips make a difference, but I don't see that it's a big one.


If I was in your shoes I'd pass this one, stash my money, and start shopping for one of the Smith & Wesson's mentioned above. They sometimes show up for sale on this forum. I've seen 2 or 3 during the last few weeks.

 

[MrPhil]

Thanks, Olf Fuff. I guess my gut was telling me the same thing. It's just that I didn't know anything about these. Your information and knowledge of the market have been very helpful. Again, thank you.

 

[Old Fuff]

As a general rule I see guns as fitting into three categories. Those that are “collectables†kept primarily for display and as investments (and good ones make very good investments). Then “shooters†that you own to use. Finely there are the best of all, shooters that either have, or may be expected to acquire a collectable value in the future.

If you dabble in collectables you’d better know what you’re doing. Not “any old gun†is necessarily valuable or likely to become such. Unless it is (A) vary rare, or (B) exceptionally popular, condition will play a big part in what it’s worth. Finish wear can be factored into the price, but if major parts are messed up (such as the sights or grips) it probably won’t increase in value much over time if inflation is considered. Gun collectors will pay through the nose for examples that are original and in prime condition, knowing that they are the most likely to appreciate.

Ordinary “shooters†are tools or toys – intended to be used. Obviously there is nothing wrong with this, but the owner/user probably doesn’t pick and chose on the basis of what they expect the gun will be worth later.

But there are “shooters,†like your S&W Target Masterpiece (model 14) that is a superb shooter that is also appreciating in value as potential buyers see them as tomorrow’s collectable. As current manufacturers turn to sometimes questionable modern technology to reduce manufacturing costs the older guns become more attractive to some, who are willing to pay to get what they want.

When considering modern guns (as opposed to antiques) there is no reason your collection of “shooters†can’t represent good investments. During the late 1940’s through 1950’s you could buy a mint/like new war surplus military model 1911/1911-A1 .45 pistol in brand new condition for $25.00 or less. Today, if the pistol was shot some but carefully maintained and not abused or altered it might be worth between $1,500.00 to $2,000.00 and rapidly going up. As you can see one can have their cake and eat it too.

 

[Gordon]

Old Fuff, I can't agree with you more! "Finely there are the best of all, shooters that either have, or may be expected to acquire a collectable value in the future." These are the only way to go IMHO, I have sold off every thing that won't shoot (antiques , ammo not available, mech decrepit) and am into that 3rd category entirely! Yeah a nice early M27 or a 1955 target for about $400-450 is where I'd put my money kid! If it had to have a pony, try a Colt .357 or Early Trooper .

 

[Old Fuff]

Which of the three general categories one engages in depends on what there interests are. While I am not heavy into antiques I never pass a good buy. From a financial point of view antiques are offering the best returns – if they are good pieces.

Colt double action revolvers of the 20th century have been largely overlooked. I think that will change as researchers and writers explore the subject and come forth with new reference books. In the meantime you can find some solid buys. Two years ago I acquired a little .32 Pocket Positive made during the middle 1920. My interest was directed toward it because it was in almost mint condition and might have never been fired. Since that time the value as increased about $100.00 for no obvious reason. Somebody must know something I don’t …

So far as “shooters†are concerned, Officer Model Target and Match revolvers are often cheap compared to other similar guns, and within their class I don’t believe anything is more accurate – except possibly an early Python. In any case I think your perceptions are correct, and in the long run you will both enjoy your collection while making money at the same time. Ya’ can’t complain about that.