The .45 Auto Rim is now obsolete?

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jski

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Just noticed this offering from Starline brass:
45 Cowboy Special (Large Pistol primer)
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Cowboy 45 Special, 45 SPL, C45S
0.892 - 0.896 O.A.L.
The Cowboy .45 Special is a case that is optimized for use with light loads in .45 Colt caliber revolvers for Cowboy Action Shooting. Light loads with excessive airspace are a recipe for case splits and erratic function. By using the Cowboy .45 Special case, with its .45 Colt rim and .45 Auto length, the problem no longer exists. While many claim that .45 Auto load data can be used in this caliber, it is important to realize the limitations of the firearm it is chambered in and only use loads that fall within the pressure range of that firearm. Generally these can be loaded using .45 Colt dies and a modified (shortened) crimp die, or .45 Auto Rim roll crimp die.
I had been looking for a shorter .45 Colt case for my S&W Mountain Gun but the .45AR has too thick a rim to work.

I know there are the S&W .45ACP revolvers the can load AR cases but why bother? Don't most S&W 625 owners like the full moon clip?
 
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Cowboy 45 special doesn't replace 45 auto rim. Anyone using 45 auto rim will continue to use it regardless of this new round.

I have a number of 45 ACP revolvers and exclusively use ACP brass in moonclips but only because I reload .45 ACP on a progrsssive press and it's easier to just use the same setup for everything. Additionally 45 ACP brass is plentiful while 45 auto rim is rather rare.
 
I think this piece from an article about Starline's "new" brass answers some of your questions:
The .45 Colt cartridge has been with us since the 1870s, when it was introduced with the new Peacemaker Colt Army revolver. That was the heyday of blackpowder and the new round had room for plenty of it. As a modern round with modern powders, the .45 Colt’s case capacity is excessive. Cowboy Action Shooting demands low velocities and lead bullets, which is no challenge for a competent handloader. Still, it would be make for more efficient reloading if the case was shorter. Understand that the old Long Colt is probably the most popular round in the game, both in replica and Colt SAAs, as well as many lever guns. So what can you find for shorter brass?

The .45 Auto Rim might seem like a good idea. It is a short, rimmed cartridge designed for revolver cylinders chambered for the .45 ACP-like the 300,000 Colt and S&W 1917s of World War I On this one, the rim is extra-thick to equal the ACP rim thickness, plus the additional thickness of the moon clip for which the guns were designed. The Auto Rim works to perfection in DA/SA revolvers chambered for ACP, but won’t work in SAA revolvers chambered for either the ACP or Long Colt.

How about the short round with a .45 Colt rim? That’s the .45 S&W, which is sometimes called the .45 Schofield or-infrequently-the .45 Short Colt. Built to equal the original performance of the .45 Colt in the shorter-cylindered Schofield revolvers, this cartridge was dormant for decades. The SASS people brought it back to life for their modern shooting sport. I would have bet that this would be the solution, but I was wrong. It turns out the .45 Schofield is a perfect fit in length for what we are seeking, but the rim is shaped to be incompatible with some of the guns guys are using in the Cowboy shoots.

For these reasons, we are about to get a .45 ACP-length, rimmed brass that will run through just about anything chambered for the .45 Colt. For shooters using S&W revolvers chambered for the Colt, this round makes an efficient option for custom loading. It might also be a functional option for use in some of those troublesome .45 Colt lever guns. It’s going to be fun to see how it all shakes out.

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Cowboy .45 Special replaces the .45 Army (aka .45 Schofield) and the .45 Colt (aka .45 Long Colt) in revolvers for those cartridges.

I for one won't use it to replace .45 AutoRim (or .45 ACP in moon clips) for use in BP handloads in my "cut" Webley Mark IV simply because it is not a replacement for .45 AutoRim.

Of course .45 AutoRim is obsolete in the sense that the guns for it are obsolete, but that's the appeal of the guns and ammo: their status as historic antiques.
 
I don't know why there's so much confusion about this. One has nothing to do with the other because they don't work in the same guns. The .45 Cowboy Special is just a short .45Colt case designed to be more efficient with the light powder charges used in CAS, along with offering easier positive ejection. That is its only purpose. If you try to duplicate full pressure .45Colt loads it will greatly exceed .45Colt pressures.

I also don't see how the .45AR could be obsolete. It was designed specifically for .45ACP revolvers and those are still being produced. :confused:
 
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Carl, exactly.

Most of the revolvers that would/could use the .45AR are either obsolete or the owners would rather use the .45ACP + moon clip.

But that .45 Special is just what the doctor ordered for .45 Colt & .45 Schofield shooters.
 
And wouldn't it be a hoot if it turns out to be relatively easy to get lever rifles to feed them? :) An extra few rounds in the tube isn't a bad thing!
 
Most of the revolvers that would/could use the .45AR are either obsolete or the owners would rather use the .45ACP + moon clip.
Seems to me that there's enough demand for Starline to continue producing brass. If I had a .45ACP revolver, I wouldn't be fooling with moon clips.
 
The biggest advocate for the .45AR is Mike “Duke” Venturino of American Handgunner fame. But I think the .45 Special undercuts his whole argument, which is based a case capacity ... the .45 Colt has too much.
 
Mmmm...I would think accuracy in a LC cylinder might suffer a bit due to the greater freebore before the bullet hits the forcing cone using the shorter brass. Not a lot, but probably noticeable.

You never hear of an accuracy problem with 38/357 or 44 Special in 44 Magnum. Why do you think it would be a problem here with 45 Cowboy Special in 45 Colt? I shoot heaps of 38 Short Colt in my 357 Magnum 627 and accuracy is pretty good for the round nose polymer coated lead bullets I am using.
 
Most of the revolvers that would/could use the .45AR are either obsolete or the owners would rather use the .45ACP + moon clip.

What do you mean by obsolete? I think you have the definition of this word confused. Guns using 45AR and/or moonclips have in production for the last 100 years. S&W currently makes three 45 ACP/AR revolvers, one 45 Colt revolver, and three Governor models that fire either. 45 ACP revolvers are not obsolete. Moonclips were used by the Army before Auto Rim rounds ever came into existence. Auto Rim is a small niche within a small niche and will remain a small niche regardless of what happens 45 Cowboy.

45 Auto Rim is a work around from having to use moonclips in a 45 ACP revolver. 45 Colt and 45 Cowboy are totally different cartridges.
 
I have loaded my version, which I call the .45 Xtra Short, for some time. The advantage, in my case, is that with the Ruger Blackhawk, it will chamber and fire in either the .45 Colt cylinder, or the .45 ACP cylinder. Plus it extends case life ~ I save.45 Colt cases which have split necks and trim them to .45 ACP length. To load, I use a .45 Colt shell holder, and .45 ACP dies.

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Fun to shoot, low recoil, economy in loading, and accurate to boot!

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Bob Wright
 
You never hear of an accuracy problem with 38/357 or 44 Special in 44 Magnum. Why do you think it would be a problem here with 45 Cowboy Special in 45 Colt? I shoot heaps of 38 Short Colt in my 357 Magnum 627 and accuracy is pretty good for the round nose polymer coated lead bullets I am using.
Well, like I said, its minor. But- try the same bullet, same load, in a short case and a long case. Put the pistol in a rest and fire a few groups- I betcha you will see the difference then.
Its one of the main reasons the Taurus Judges are notorious for poor accuracy with .45lc rounds- the .410 cylinder acts like a super long "lead" allowing the bullet to hit the rifling off axis, resulting in poor stabilization.
 
Just to show off my wealth of knowledge on the subject:rofl: :rofl: here is my take on the subject:

This applies to Ruger Single Action Blackhawks and Vaqueros originally chambered for the .45 Colt and supplied with an aftermarket .45 ACP cylinder or a factory supplied ACP cylinder.

The .45 ACP cylinder, unmodified, will not chamber the .45 AR round. The ACP case headspaces on the case mouth and the chamber is of such depth that very tight headspace results. There is not sufficient clearance for the thick rim of the AR case. So either shoot .45 ACP in the ACP cylinder, or insert the .45 Colt and load and shoot .45 Colt.

Now: Using the .45 Cowboy, or as I call it the .45 Xtra Short, the Xtra Short may be fired in either the ACP cylinder, or the .45 Colt cylinder. Since it is a shortened .45 Colt case, it will work well in the longer chamber. But it is at home in the ACP chamber as its the same length as the ACP case.

As to crimping, taper crimp ACP dies work well, but with my mild target loads, neck tension is sufficient to hold the bullet against recoil.

Bob Wright
 
Howdy

Left to right in this photo the cartridges are 45 Colt, 45 Schofield, 45 Cowboy Special, 45 Auto Rim, and 45 ACP. Not immediately obvious in this photo, but the 45 Schofield rim is larger in diameter than the 45 Colt or 45 CS rim. SAMMI standard for the 45 Colt rim diameter is .512. That is the same rim diameter as the 45 CS. However, because the 45 Schofield round was designed to be extracted by the extractor star of the Schofield revolver, the rim diameter for the Schofield round is .520.


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How about the short round with a .45 Colt rim? That’s the .45 S&W, which is sometimes called the .45 Schofield or-infrequently-the .45 Short Colt. Built to equal the original performance of the .45 Colt in the shorter-cylindered Schofield revolvers, this cartridge was dormant for decades. The SASS people brought it back to life for their modern shooting sport. I would have bet that this would be the solution, but I was wrong. It turns out the .45 Schofield is a perfect fit in length for what we are seeking, but the rim is shaped to be incompatible with some of the guns guys are using in the Cowboy shoots.

There are two inaccuracies in this statement. The 45 Schofield cartridge did not equal the performance of the 45 Colt cartridge. It couldn't. The reason S&W developed the Schofield cartridge was their tooling was set up for cylinders 1 7/16" long. They were in the midst of the Russian contracts, and the 44 Russian cartridge only needed a cylinder 1 7/16" long. When S&W bid on a contract to supply the Army with revolvers, competing with Colt, the Army specified that the revolvers must be 45 caliber. Opening up the chambers and the bores from 44 to 45 was no big problem, but the 45 Colt cartridge was too long to fit into a 1 7/16" cylinder. Rather than change their tooling in the middle of the lucrative Russian contract, S&W proposed an alternative cartridge, not too long to fit into a 1 7/16" cylinder. The 45 Schofield cartridge was the result. Black Powder cartridges are stuffed completely full of powder, unlike Smokeless cartridges there is never any empty airspace. The relative size of a Black Powder cartridge is a reasonably accurate comparison of how powerful it is. The 45 Colt originally held 40 grains of Black Powder under a 250 grain bullet. This was later reduced to 30 grains in the cartridges supplied to the military, with cardboard wadding taking up the empty space. The charge in the 45 Schofield cartridge was about 28 grains of Black Powder under a 235 grain bullet. Clearly, not as powerful as the original 45 Colt design, and slightly less powerful than the military 45 colt cartridge.

Regarding the rim being incompatible with revolvers used in CAS, again, not true. In almost every case, the extra diameter of the 45 Schofield cartridge does not prevent it seating properly in a 45 Colt revolver. Trust me on this, I have shot Schofield rounds in Colts, Ubertis, and an original Schofield. The only case I am aware of, is an 'original model' Vaquero of mine. One chamber, and one chamber only, does not have quite enough clearance for a 45 Schofield cartridge to seat completely. About five minutes with a file took care of that.

Regarding the 45 Cowboy Special, it is not a new round. It first appeared probably close to ten years ago. It was the brainchild of a Cowboy shooter, and as has been stated, the idea behind it was to make for a more efficient round when loaded lightly than the 45 Colt. When loaded lightly with Smokeless powder, the large volume of empty airspace in the 45 Colt can make ignition spotty and the burn can be inefficient. Reducing the extra air volume in the case makes for a much more efficient burn. Anyway, the inventor of the round contracted with a brass manufacturer, I do not know who, to produce a production run of the brass, and he was the exclusive seller of the brass. After a while, because of health problems he got out of the brass business, selling the rights to make the brass to another shooter. Then there followed a few years when for several reasons the brass was hard to come by and very expensive. Finally, Starline started producing the brass, I have to guess they bought the rights to it from the latest owner. That is why we are now seeing the 45 Cowboy Special brass being marketed by Starline.

And by the way, the 45 Cowboy Special round is much too short to function properly in a lever rifle. One can modify, or buy, a modified carrier for a toggle link rifle (1860 Henry, 1866 Winchester or 1873 Winchester) that will allow the 45CS to cycle properly in a lever gun chambered for 45 Colt. Otherwise, the round is much too short to feed properly in a lever gun. I am not aware of any modifications that will allow the 45CS to function properly in a Winchester Model 1892. I'm sure if somebody really wanted to, the 1892 carrier could be modified to work with the 45CS, but I am not aware of anybody who has done so. As it is, converting a toggle link rifle to feed 45CS is pretty rare.

Regarding shooting the 45 Auto Rim in revolvers instead of 45 ACP with clips, count me as one. There was quite a long thread about this quite recently. I prefer to shoot 45 Auto Rims in my Model 1917 Smiths, I don't want to mess around stuffing rounds onto clips. By the way, the 1917 S&W revolver will fire a 45 ACP without moon clips just fine, the rounds headspace on the chamber throat, but you need a stick to poke out the empties.
 
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Well, like I said, its minor. But- try the same bullet, same load, in a short case and a long case. Put the pistol in a rest and fire a few groups- I betcha you will see the difference then.
Its one of the main reasons the Taurus Judges are notorious for poor accuracy with .45lc rounds- the .410 cylinder acts like a super long "lead" allowing the bullet to hit the rifling off axis, resulting in poor stabilization.

Now I only have one data point but playing with the 4-inch alloy frame Judge my father has I found it to be reasonably accurate with 45 Colt. Nothing your going to shoot bullseye competition with but I could keep all five shots on a 4 inch shoot and see target at ~20 yards using the rudimentary fixed sights that revolver has. And the Judge is an extreme case of bullet jump. You might be right but I think very few shooters are going to be in situations to see the accuracy differences between 45 Cowboy Special and 45 Colt.
 
How about some discussion on the gap between the bullet in its case and the forcing cone. But thinking about it, I realized that before the bullet jumps from the cylinder to the forcing cone, it must first go thru the chamber throat. So that shouldn't be a problem for the .45 Special v. the .45 Colt. Correct?
 
It shouldn't be any different from any other revolver. As long as the bullet fits the cylinder throat there shouldn't be any issues. Some older guns have large throats - .453 to .455. Using lead bullets sized at .451 will result in poor accuracy with these guns. Jacketed bullets aren't effected as much by the large throats.
 
You never hear of an accuracy problem with 38/357 or 44 Special in 44 Magnum. Why do you think it would be a problem here with 45 Cowboy Special in 45 Colt? I shoot heaps of 38 Short Colt in my 357 Magnum 627 and accuracy is pretty good for the round nose polymer coated lead bullets I am using.

Accuracy of 38 Special in a 38 Special chamber is known to be better than in a 357 Magnum chamber. Bullseye shooters stuck with the 38 Special revolvers long after the introduction of 357 Magnum. But, most of us will not see a difference or need to care about the difference.

How about some discussion on the gap between the bullet in its case and the forcing cone. But thinking about it, I realized that before the bullet jumps from the cylinder to the forcing cone, it must first go thru the chamber throat. So that shouldn't be a problem for the .45 Special v. the .45 Colt. Correct?

I believe one of the reasons is the bullet gets a little cocked before going through the chamber throat and this upsets how the bullet goes the rest of the way down the barrel.

But, I've slept some since I heard this so my memory may be fuzzy.
 
Just talked to Hunter at Starline, their tech guy. Three points:

a) the .45 Special case is the same as the .45 ACP and .45 AR, except with a different head (i.e., rim).
b) there's NO problem with accuracy because of the shorter case. (For the reason stated above.)
c) the .45 Special had been under a exclusive license with another company and that's expired. So it's been added to the Starline catalog for only a month.
 
As far as the obsolescence of 45 Auto Rim, there are enough 45 ACP revolvers out there that can use moon clips that there is probably a continuing demand for ammunition. The demand is small and eventually, the ammunition manufacturers will probably discontinue factory ammunition. Cases will probably be available for reloaders for long time.

I'm happy using moon clips in my S&W 625. I have a mooning/de-mooning tool that loads/unloads the clips in one motion. I take a box or two worth of loaded clips to the range with me and process them when I get home. Besides, I do not need to add another cartridge to load.
 
Mmmm...I would think accuracy in a LC cylinder might suffer a bit due to the greater freebore before the bullet hits the forcing cone using the shorter brass. Not a lot, but probably noticeable.
My .45 Blackhawk generally shoots just a little better from the .45 ACP cylinder than from the .45 Colt cylinder.

Not a lot, but noticeable.
 
I was also thinking these rounds would load more smoothly, using a speed loader, that the .45 LC. Because they're shorter.
 
I was also thinking these rounds would load more smoothly, using a speed loader, that the .45 LC. Because they're shorter.
Or moonclips for the few 45 Colt revolvers cut for moonclips. Short fat cartridge with round nose bullets are a recipe for fast revolver reloads.
 
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