Help!! identifying a SAA revolver?

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DonP

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Over the weekend I was standing in line to buy a couple of reloading trays at the local Gander Mountain, listening to people complain about no .223, no ARs etc.

Then I spotted a Single Action Army in the "used guns" case. Short barrel (3 1/2) with a Bird Head grip in .357 Mag. (I gotta start shopping with blinders on like a carriage horse, for my own good)

The clerk said a woman had just brought it in Friday evening and said; "I just want it out of the house". Divorce, widowed, argument over a new water heater or ironing board cover, who knows?

It's a case colored frame, blued barrel, wood grip. It's a Gen 1 clone with no safety. Instead of the usual spring loaded button on the side to release the rod and remove the cylinder, it has a small set screw under the front of the frame. It's got a little surface rust on the frame and I don't think it's seen any oil since the 1973 oil embargo.

The only markings I can find are "Single Action Army" on the side of the barrel and under the barrel I can see a faint "Armi" then the rest of the manufacturers roll mark is indistinguishable from scratches.

I have two Uberti SAAs in .45 Colt with 5 1/2 barrels, but they all have the spring loaded release for the rod.

Any ideas on where to start looking or what manufacturer it might have come from? I think "Armi" is just Italian for Arms, pretty generic. Pietta? Benelli? Uberti?

And as long as I'm being a pest any thoughts or tips on safely removing the light rust without hurting the case coloring?
 
Armi San Marcos. Italian arms maker. They make a lot of SAA clones. The model you describe is a fairly recent version in response to the cowboy action shooting craze a few years ago.

The early Colts had a set screw for the cylinder retention and later they went with the spring loaded plunger type. The set screw version is called the Black Powder Frame because the other dates to around when smokeless powder came out.
 
The modern SAAs with the screw angled up from the front replicates a very early version of as made from 1873 to 1888 if I remember correctly. I prefer them to the ones with the spring-loaded cross pin, just because they are a little different.
 
It was 1896 that they switched the cylinder pin retention system to the spring loaded one.

DonP, if it is an Armi San Marco and the price is right and you like, grab it. I bought this one without even knowing about that company, just found it priced right, and liked it. I've later had a few "experts" tell me how bad they are, but mine has been a great gun, no issues and fun to shoot.

KBILibertyLimitedII357_zpsf94e382e.jpg
 
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I bought it

Thanks for the feedback guys. I know a lot more than I did last night.

At a final price of $179 I couldn't pass it up.

I reload .38 special and .357 mag and I just bought three big gallon jars of cleaned 38 cases at an estate sale.

Now it's time for the tear down and cleaning, always a fun project with no diagram to go by! But I've done spring and trigger jobs on enough SAAs that I'll probably figure it out.

First I'm going to try a little oil and a plastic scouring pad on the light rust very carefully on the case colored frame.
 
Howdy

There is (or was) ArmiSport, Armi San Paolo, and Armi San Marco. Different companies. Here is a link to interpreting the markings on these guns.

http://www.powderhombre.com/mbpproofmarks.pdf

The angled screw in the front of the frame holding the cylinder pin in place was part of the the original design of the SAA, starting in 1873. The transverse cylinder base pin lock was first introduced as a target model feature in 1892. It became standard for all models of the SAA in 1896, but examples of the angled screw have been found in guns made as late as 1899.

And with all due respect, Single Action Army, or SAA is a registered trademark of the Colt company. Only Colt makes a SAA. The others are replicas. Colt is very aggresive about protecting their copyrights and trademarks and no other company attempts to use the name Single Action Army or the abbreviation SAA.

ColtBarrelLegend.jpg
 
Me too, I'd take them at that price all day!

I gave $269.00 for the one in that picture, no rust, but the inside was filthy and bone dry. It had so many .38sp's shot in it without cleaning, that I could not get a .357 to chamber all the way until I cleaned it out. Action was a tad gritty when I bought it, but after I stripped it down and cleaned out a ton of powder residue and oiled it, it is very slick.

Any instructions for Colt SA, should work fine for dis-assembly of that one.
 
Driftwood Johnson said:
And with all due respect, Single Action Army, or SAA is a registered trademark of the Colt company. Only Colt makes a SAA. The others are replicas. Colt is very aggresive about protecting their copyrights and trademarks and no other company attempts to use the name Single Action Army or the abbreviation SAA.
Click to expand...

Didn't Colt sue ASM or somebody over that and win??
 
Didn't Colt sue ASM or somebody over that and win??
Click to expand...

Colt sued American Western Arms in 2002. The guns were actually made by Armi San Marcos and marketed in the US by AWM. Colt made several spurious claims, including that the guns looked too much like a real Colt, and Colt eventually lost the lawsuit. But the cost of the suit was too much for AWA and probably helped put them out of business, which was probably Colt's intention in the first place.
 
DonP, if it's not too late I recomend that you use plain ol' steel wool instead of a ScotrBrite like scrubbie.

The ScothBrite and similar pads have hard abrasive grit embedded in the plastic and WILL seriously scratch the blueing and colour case hardening more than they are now.

On the other hand plain old steel wool is made from mild steel and is actually softer than the blued finish. So it will scuff away the rust but not the existing blue finish.
 
Driftwood Johnson said:
Colt sued American Western Arms in 2002. The guns were actually made by Armi San Marcos and marketed in the US by AWM. Colt made several spurious claims, including that the guns looked too much like a real Colt, and Colt eventually lost the lawsuit. But the cost of the suit was too much for AWA and probably helped put them out of business, which was probably Colt's intention in the first place.
Click to expand...
Just a couple of corrections. American Western Arms bought raw parts from Armi San Marco and assembled and finished them here in the U.S. They were marketed here under the name Peacekeeper. The name is what caused the Colt lawsuit as it was a name that Colt allready had copyrighted that and the grips had the rampant colt and Peacemaker was too close to Peacekeeper. Colt actually won the lawsuit.
AWA was reformed as American Western Arms and is still in business making some really fine SAA but not named Peacekeeper.
 
Sounds like a very nice deal at that price, Don. Change your mind; I'll take it in a heartbeat. :)

Might see if you can find some copper wool, too. Even softer than steel wool and more gentle on existing blue. Don't forget to get us pics when your done.



~Dave~
 
Thanks for all the insight guys.

From what I've been able to find, with your help, it seems to be an EMF Pinkerton, made by Armi San Marco. The EMF people didn't have anything left about it, since they haven't carried the line in more than a few years, but they sent me some good exploded drawing of their other SAA clones that helped,

I took i apart last night for cleaning and it is almost exactly like a Gen 1 Colt/Uberti/Cimarron et. al. as far as the parts go.

The cylinder has a fixed bushing and the pin is really tight. May have to polish it with some emery cloth, but first let's see if a little lube helps it first. With that short little barrel you have to take the ejector off before you can fully remove the pin

The inside is totally dried out. I tore the whole thing down and didn't get any dirt or oil on my hands. The rust in some spots was light enough that some of it came off as I rubbed it with a paper towel to see how deep it went.

IIRC ... I have some Bronze Wool in the toolbox that i use for working on my boat I might try with a little Rem Oil. Might oil the grip too with some tung oil when I finish the mechanicals.

Bronze wool is very big in the marine industry, since any slivers of it you might leave behind on the wood won't leave big rust stains on your varnished topsides.

With any luck ... and not losing any parts ... I should have it done this weekend.

Next project, finding a good holster for it.
 
Patents expire in 17 years, not copyright.

I paid way too much for this Armi San Marcos SAA (go ahead, Colt, sue me) about 25 years ago.


standard.gif
 
I was under the impression that patents and copyright have a shelf life, something like 100 years or so.
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Howdy Again

As I said earlier, the name Single Action Army is a Registered Trademark. It is not a patent and it is not a copyright. Go to the Colt Website and you will see the little R inside a circle after the names Single Action Army as well as after the name Colt New Frontier.

http://www.coltsmfg.com/Catalog/ColtRevolvers.aspx

A Registered Trademark is different from a patent or a copyright. As long as the owner continues to exercise the use or display of the item that is trademarked, it lasts forever.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trademark
 

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I'd say you've done real well there, Don. Looks pretty nice!

His cousins the EMF New Dakota & Taylor's Birdshead say hello. :)

photo-1084.jpg
 
FWIW, patents and copyrights have a limited term, but a trademark doesn't expire, as long as the company continues to use it and defends it by taking violators to court if necessary. That is why a writer who has his character go to a soft drink machine and buy a "coke" had better capitalize the word or he will get a letter from Coca-Cola's lawyers.

One interesting sidelight on this was back in the 1920's. The country was swamped by cheap Spanish copies of S&W revolvers, some being sold as real S&W's. Sellers told customers that S&W had established a factory in Spain during the war (WWI) and the guns came from there. Not true, of course.

One of the ways S&W defended itself was to trademark the color casehardening on its hammers and triggers. If the Spanish copied it, U.S. customs would impound the guns for trademark infringement. If they didn't, the guns would be harder to pass off as S&W's.

So, wonder why those hard MIM parts S&W uses that don't need case hardening are still colored? Remember the trademark holder has to continue to use the trademark, so S&W does.

Jim
 
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