Help identifying old 38 S&W

[Ryanxia]

Hello all,
I bought a used .38 Smith & Wesson for my grandfather and was hoping to get some more info on it before I give it to him. The gunshop thought it may have been used by the Canadian Mounties or British or something. Even if I can get a rough estimate on when it was made that would be awesome. Thanks in advance, and let me know if there is any info I should include that I didn't.

Steel revolver, 6 shot, black. Fixed sights. Single/Double Action.

Print on right side:
S&W Trademark behind cylinder
Made in U.S.A. between trigger and cylinder
Barrel: 38 S&W. SPECIAL CTG

Print on left side:
Barrel: SMITH & WESSON
Between barrel and cylinder a very small crown with BNP written under it
BNP also written very small on cylinder
Between trigger and cylinder are 2 swords crossed with M 3 8

Serial number on bottom of butt plate is 989324 (assuming serial #) with NO lettering (positive).
The original handles were broken according to the gunshop so there are aftermarket wood handles on it now.

The serial # is NOT written anywhere on the gun with the exception of the bottom butt plate. Nothing on barrel, cylinder, near the ejection rod, etc. which I found strange (but maybe is standard for back then).

Edit: Serial # is on back of cylinder as well

Appreciate any info, and let me know if I should add anything else.

 

[Oyeboten]

Hi Ryanxia,


Serial Number should also be stamped on the flat narrow area underneath the Barrel, near the Frame, where the Ejector Rod is at rest when the Cylinder is closed...Numerals can be very tiny...so, have another look there just in case.


Otherwise, sounds like 1942 production...) they hit Serial No. 1,000,000 in 1942, but I have not found out in what Month) ...S&W having gone to a 'V' prefix there-after.


Definitely a Revolver with some interesting History..!


See if the Gunshop kept the old 'broken' Handles ( 'Stocks' )...maybe you could repair them.


Post some images...it would be fun to see it.

 

[Jim Watson]

BNP is Birmingham Nitro Proof, so the gun went through England.

The British service revolver round was the .38/200 = .38 S&W Super Police but they were hurting enough for weapons at the time that they took some .38 Specials (and .30-06s.)

 

[Ryanxia]

Thank you both for the info. And no the original handles were gone when I got to the gun shop.

Jim - Do you know when it was that the British were taking .38 specials? (which decade anyway?)

I just took some pictures a few minutes ago. Here they are.


P.S. I got this for $125 which I was happy with.

 

[Old Fuff]

During late 1939 through 1941 the British were taking anything they could get, although their standard service revolvers were chambered in .38 S&W, and had 5" barrels.

That said, after careful examination of the photographs I think this revolver has been rebarreled. It may have started life chambered in .38 S&W (they called it the .38-200) and the cylinder may have been rechambered to .38 Special, or still be in .38 S&W. In any case, look at the bottom of the handle where the serial number is stamped, and see if it is off-center, and if you can detect a plug where a lanyard loop might have been.

As Oyeboten pointed out, there should be a matching serial number stamped on the bottom of the barrel, and if they're isn't the possibility of a barrel change becomes much stronger.

Smith & Wesson ended the first serial number series at #999,999 on or about April 24, 1942, but some revolvers were shipped as late as 1945. Older pre-numbered frames didn't always get finished up first.

 

[Ryanxia]

Thanks.

The bottom has the serial # towards the back of the butt and centered left to right (if that makes sense).

There is no plug/hole.


Here are a few other pictures I had taken, sorry nothing up close on the butt or under the barrel. With the new handles they have to be taken off to show the butt.

Also, does anyone know what the symbol from the first set of pictures is? The one with the 2 swords?

 

[rondog]

Jeeze, why can't I find deals like that..... $125 is what the gun shops typically GIVE me for my S&W revolvers.

 

[Ryanxia]

Well I happened to be out in the sticks visiting family. They also had Mosin Nagants for sale for $95 in pretty good condition but I figured 3 guns in 4 days was enough

 

[Oyeboten]

Barrel looks to be a true pre-Model 10 kind anyway, though someone has reshaped the Front Sight on it.

I do not know when they stopped putting the lines of Patent Dates on the Barrel top, but, some ways prior to 1942 anyway, I imagine.

As Old Fuff mentions, many or most if not nearly all UK destined 'M&P's were indeed originally chambered and Barreled for the .38-200 Cartridge, which was shorter and a little fatter than .38 Special...and or which was the old .38 S&W Cartridge, having a heavier than usual Bullet.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/.38-200


If .38 Special will chamber alright, and, does not feel loose or able to be wiggled when half-way chambered, then the Cylinder may well be one which was originally for .38 Special.

And since your Cylinder shares the same Serial Number as the Frame, if a .38 Special Cartridge does chamber correctly, then this would strongly suggest that the Revolver in fact did begin Life as the very .38 Special it appears to be now...even if it is not usual for the UK destined use of the time.


If the underside 'flat' of the Barrel in fact has no Serial Number, or, has a different Serial Number, this of course would indicate the Revolver having been re-Barreled at some point.

 

[Ryanxia]

Thanks Oye,

I fired 6 rounds (.38 special) out of it the day I got it and it shoots fine. Accurate. And when it is cocked the cylinder does not move at all (outside the norm). Unless the serial # was printed where the tip of the ejection rod rubs against (very small area but well warn) it is definitely not on the barrel.

I will try to get a good picture tomorrow of the underside to make sure I'm not missing anything.

I really appreciate all the help from everyone, I know it's fun to share knowledge with other gun owners but the fast responses are surprising (my first post on The High Road). Any more info is appreciated, especially as my grandfather will be delighted when I pass it on to him.

 

[Oyeboten]

If you wanted, you could contact Smith & Wesson, and have them provide a 'Letter', representing the information they have in their Records about your exact Revolver.

This used to cost $75.00 I think, and I do not know if it has gone up.

But, it might be interesting to do.


Some of these Revolvers were Private Purchase, and, were shipped in small lots through Brokers or even Sporting Goods Stores, for British Purchase Orders. Others were shipped in Large Lots, through British Purchasing Agents in the States. At least that was the case in WWI, but I am nost sure now if it also was occuring in WWII.

WWI era, probably had more variaitons for UK use, because of this, than WWII had.

The Serial Number, when present, under the Barrel, would be in the longish narrow flat-Milled area where the Rod's minor diameter itself would rest.

Re-Barreling was also sometimes done during the War, by the Armourers, from injuries a Barrel could get from mis-hap in use.


That is so cool you got this for your Grandfather.

I wish my Grandfathers were still around, by golly, I'd do the same.

I wish my Dad was still around, for that matter.


Kind of a nice idea to pass things on 'uphill'..!

 

[Ryanxia]

Well I thank you again Oye.
I think I might just do that down the road (if it's still $75+) because I'm a history buff. But after an $800 gun spree on vacation I may wait


It amazes me how many of these old guns are still available and cheap. I would think a part of history (even if it were civilian owned for the past 70 years) would be better kept and more expensive...

 

[Old Fuff]

The information concerning historical letters of authentication from Smith & Wesson’s historian, Roy G. Jinks can be obtained from the link listed below.

In exchange for a $50.00 research fee (make any check out to Smith & Wesson, not Mr. Jinks) he will search through the company’s original records until he finds your particular revolver. He will then send you an official letter which usually includes:

A short history of the revolver model’s background.

What the barrel length, caliber/cartridge, finish and stocks were, as well as the exact date it was shipped from the factory – and to what distributor, dealer or individual – as whatever the case may be.

http://www.smith-wesson.com/webapp/...catalogId=10001&content=25301&sectionId=10504

Unless something has changed recently, the research/letter fee is still $50.00

 

[Oyeboten]

Oh good...better than I thought.


I wonder where I got the $75.00 figure from?


Pardon me...

 

[Old Fuff]

The Old Fuff is very forgiving...

Colt letters are in the $100 range, or were last I knew.

For a long time S&W would letter guns for only $35.00, but costs and demand forced an increase to $50.00. The company never expected to make money, and they and Roy Jinks offered the service as sort of a P.R. thing.

Many people that request a letter don't realize that at the present time the records are not computerized, although hopefully this will change in the future. So old ledger books going back to the Civil War have to be searched, and the guns are not necessarily listed in numerical order, Clearly this can develop into a sort of needle-in-a-haystack sort of thing. Thus the $50.00 fee is very reasonable.

Another possibility that I haven't had time to look into is that it might have gone to Canada, although I don't think there is a RCMP connection, but that's something for Mr. Jinks to sort out. The original shipping record could explain a lot.

During 1941, and especially during the days and weeks that followed the attack on Pearl Harbor on December 7th, a lot of strange things went on at both S&W and Colt. It was a pure Chinese fire drill sort of thing where the emergency demand made particular attention to exact model and caliber/cartridge combinations moot. Also by January 1st, 1942 (only three weeks later after Pearl Harbor) the U.S. Government had taken over control of all current production as well as any handguns that remained in stock. There were no commercial or law enforcement sales being made to the domestic retail trade or police departments, and revolvers that hadn't yet been shipped went to other places.

 

[Nikdfish]

I recall paying $35 in 2008 for a letter from the S&W historian, just before the price increase to $50 ... It can take a while for them to process a request, but it eventually gets done.

Nick

 

[Ryanxia]

Thanks for all the great info. It hadn't occurred to me that the records aren't computerized, that definitely makes the $50 reasonable. I'm not used to companies NOT trying to screw everyone over

 

[Oyeboten]

'Black and Decker' used to have a similar thing which was free, but tended to take a while.

So did 'Skilsaw'.

I used to collect early examples of Power Tools, and I would sometimes write them for info.

Actually quite a few old Companies used to offer the courtesy...and probably some still do.

I bought a 1940 Ingersoll Rand 85 CFM Tow-About Air Compressor a few years ago, powdered by a 4 Cylinder L-Head 'Walkesha' Engine.

Anyway, I called both Companies....asking for info...and a week later I got a 5 page Xerox of their in house 1940 Work Order and completion log with all specs on the Unit. When ( day week month finished) Engine was made, when installed, tested, when the Unit shipped...really fun.

 

[JIM BOB]

S&W used to charge 20 bucks and you got to talk to Roy Jenks to boot,that was a while back.