Help me pick a rifle for subsonic suppressed project

[beerslurpy]

My plans for a suppressor for the AK fell through due to technical problems (it wouldnt actually be quiet due to gas system) and I decided to make a dedicated subsonic suppressed rifle instead. The goal is minimum sound but good power in a subsonic round.

The choices below are what I came up with at work while daydreaming during compiles. Please share more ideas if you come across any. Also, if anyone has a lead on a rhineland arms 45 kit or a camp carbine, I would jump at a chance to buy it off you.

Caliber choices are:
45 ACP: cheap, subsonic, heavy, tons of mags available for it
45 Long Colt: same as 45 ACP, but rimmed
458 SOCOM: like 45 ACP but 3x the bullet mass and 3x the price per round.

I am torn between doing a semiauto carbine and doing a bolt action carbine. Choices are:
-camp carbine semiauto in 45 ACP with integral can.
-enfield with 45 ACP + 1911 mag conversion and integral can.
-Mech Tech 1911 carbine conversion with integral can.
-AR15 upper in 45 ACP with integral can
-AR15 upper in 458 SOCOM with integral can
-custom bolt gun in 458 socom with integral can

The AR upper options and the custom bolt gun options would be pricey. The enfield plus conversion would be under 300. Camp carbines used to be under 200 now they are like 600 on gunbroker (****ty). Integral suppressor for any of these barrels would be just under 700. I'm aiming for 110-120 decibels.

 

[grimjaw]

beerslurpy, might not interest you, but I saw a Ruger 77 bolt chambered for .44 Magnum that somebody had worked up a suppressor for. .44 Special out of that ought to be interesting. The rifles might be hard to come by, though. Just a thought.

jmm

 

[beerslurpy]

Yeah I had thought of that, but 44 mag has to be handloaded or you put in 44 specials and take a hit in accuracy because the bullet doesnt seat against the rifling (it headspaces on the rim and is much shorter than the 44mag the rifle is chambered for).

And more importantly, it is hard to get those rifles due to being out of production.

 

[Minator]

the only guns that dont make a gunshot sound when they have a can installed are AR types and 95% of 22lr calibers other then that no others would fit in your category and I have never seen a 45acp rifle other than conversions that operate very pourly.

 

[Gordon]

Did you see my "finally got my Destroyer" post 3 days ago? I paid $375 for a like new one, I plan on shooting handloads with 173grain Keith lead bullets sized to +.001 over bore diameter using just enough Unique to keep things sub sonic.

But iffn you HAVE to have a .45 bore , La Bounty would rebore for $119(and thread the end cheap no doubt) and 1911 mags could be modified along with trigger guard housing hole size and modify the bolt face and extractor. You could have a nifty .45 repeater this way for $600.

 

[Telperion]

If you are willing to handload, have you looked at 300 Whisper? If commercially loaded ammo is a requirement, I think your choices will be more limited. Do a search or go to http://www.quarterbore.com/300whisper/index.html

 

[444]

I recently spent a four hour car ride discussing this same issue.
I own a half dozen suppressors but after hearing my buddies DeLislie, I decided I had to have a dedicated suppressed rifle.
I would like to have one that is practical as a rifle. If I wanted to use it for hunting or personal defense or even (Heaven forbid) offense I wanted it to have some real power.
This means big bullets. If you decide to shoot subsonic loads, why not throw a HUGE chunk of lead out there at subsonic velocity ? You can throw a 77 grain .223 out there at 1050 fps or a 500 grain bullet at the same speed. If the speed is fixed, why not go big with weight ?
One of the things that I gave some serious consideration to was the .45/70 cartridge out of a lever action. You can shoot some REAL big bullets out of that.
Then I moved on to the .300 Whisper. Obviously this cartridge was designed to be shot suppressed. I believe there is also a .338 Whisper and a 500 Whisper ???

A lot of these cartridges shoot bullets between 200 and 300 grains. .45 ACP, .44 Special/Mag. 300 Whisper........................................ If you are loading them to subsonic velocities, then the whole pictures kind of blurs: same weight bullet/same velocity bullet.


I owned a .458 SOCOM and it was OK. But, there was nothing about it that thrilled me. I was never really comfortable with the idea that the rifle was not designed for the cartridge and was thus modified. For me and me only, I am probably going to go with a bolt gun, but like I said, I considered a lever.

 

[geekWithA.45]

What about a Camp9?

They're cheaper, higher capacity, easier to come by, and I recall subsonic 9mm loads being commercially available....

 

[444]

FWIW, I have the LRM M169 integrally suppressed 9mm AR15 upper. This is a very simple, turn key operation.
However, it has it's drawbacks:
It isn't all that quiet if you ask me.
The one I have bleeds off gas which slows down the bullet. This is so you can shoot cheap WalMart supersonic ammo and the supperssor slows it down to subsonic. I would prefer making the ammo subsonic through handloading. Most of the time, I don't care if the round is supersonic but with this upper I don't have that choice.
If you are going to carry around something this big, why not have something in a serious caliber ?

 

[beerslurpy]

Not going with 9mm because subsonic 45 hits harder and is easier to find on shelves. If I could get this in full auto, I might consider going down to 380, but with bolt action I want each shot to count.

 

[444]

Ok, so what about the other stuff: .300 Whisper, .45/70, etc. Why screw around with pistol cartridges ? Go big or stay home.
Give me some dialog.

 

[beerslurpy]

300 whisper is silly. It is a lot of effort for something that hits way less hard than 45. If I am going to go for 30 caliber, I would just have Mark make me a rem 700 with an integral. Those are fairly quiet and hit super hard (as supersonic 308 should). I would rather download 308 with heavy bullets than be stuck with the whisper.

45/70 is neat except you have to handload because every commercial 45/70 load I have heard of is way supersonic. For a handloader, this has just as much potential as 458 socom, with the benefit of cheaper brass. But I am not a handloader yet. I just cant justify that kind of intellectual effort for a one time deal.

My ideal subsonic round would be a 1oz 12 ga shotgun slug. I would be getting a can for a remington bolt action slug gun except for the little problem of shotguns having wads to strike the baffles. Pistol rounds are the medicine when you want subsonic. Big and slow is the name of the game for quiet.

 

[444]

Well, I personally don't think the .300 Whisper is silly. And I don't think it hits way less hard than a .45. In fact, the bulllet is much more aerodynamic. As I said, if you are shooting subsonic, the parent case doesn't matter. A 240 grain Sierra Match King fired subonic out of the .300 Whisper is the same as it would be if the same bullet was fired subsonic out of a .308. And according to that link provided earlier, you can get the .300 Whisper up over 2000 fps with a 150 grain bullet if you want to go supersonic. I agree that it is a far cry from a full bore .308, but it ain't shabby. It is certainly a heavier bullet moving a lot faster than a .45 Auto.
If you start handloading the bigger cases like .308 you run into an issue with a very small powder charge in that big case. This causes problems. You don't have these problems with the .300 Whisper. Of course these issues don't prevent you from loading larger cases, subsonic. But for a dedicated suppressed rifle, it makes life a little easier for you.
Something else you might want to consider. Savage rifles have been touted over the last few years as being the most accurate out of the box rifles on the market. Another aspect of Savage rifles is that it is VERY easy to change barrels on them. This is something you can do at home with a few simple tools. So, you could have a .300 Whisper barrel as well as a .308 barrel (or whatever).
I would personally go for the .45/70 long before I went for the .458 Socom. The .458 Socom is to the .45/70, what the .300 Whisper is to the .308 IMO. Same bullet, much smaller volume case. Of course, who makes a bolt gun in .45/70 ? I suppose if you really wanted a .45 caliber bolt action rifle to suppress you could go straight to the .458 Win Mag. Shoot subsonics out of it, then unscrew the can and shoot the full blown big boys.


In the end, I probably will go with the .308 just because it is totally mainstream. There are readily available production suppressors designed around that cartridge. As you say, it is more verstitile than the .300 Whisper and FWIW I already own several .308 rifles and handload for them all the time.
But..............that .300 Whisper still is attractive to me.

I hope we get some good dialog going on this subject. It is a lot more interesting to me than discussing what our favorite 9mm handguns are.

 

[beerslurpy]

My main gripe with this new interest of mine is that there are so few choices on the marketplace. The restrictiveness of the FFL/SOT system really chokes off manufacturers to the point that there are a few dozen reputable suppressor manufacturers that I can think of, at most.

And if none of them think your project is worthwhile, you get no help.

 

[444]

I have never had a suppressor custom made, but it can be done. There are a lot of people manufacturing suppressors that arn't widely knows as suppressor manufacturers. In other words, they mainly do other things but will make a suppressor if they need one.
I bet SSK Industries would make you a suppressor for a .458 Socom or a .300 Whisper. JD Jones (SSK Ind.) invented the .300 Whisper.
http://www.sskindustries.com/

Eye Candy: http://www.sskindustries.com/tactical.htm

"This is SSK's new suppressed .510 Whisper® built on the SAKO TRG-S action.
The 750 grain Hornady AMAC bullet is capable of 1 MOA accuracy at 600 yards."

 

[Matt-man]

Well, I personally don't think the .300 Whisper is silly. And I don't think it hits way less hard than a .45. In fact, the bulllet is much more aerodynamic.

This can be significant. Just about any rifle bullet is going to have a much better ballistic coefficient than a stubby pistol bullet. The higher the BC, the better the bullet is at retaining its velocity (and thus energy) as it goes downrange.

As an example I ran the numbers for a .429" 240gr Speer JHP meant for .44 Magnum (BC = .165) and the .308" 240gr Matchking (BC = .685). With both starting at 1000fps, the .44 is down to 829fps at 200 yards. The Matchking is only down to 950. This also means less drop. With a 100-yard zero, the .44 drops about 41" at 200, and the Matchking drops about 34".

Another thing to consider with .300 Whisper vs. .308: The Whisper can be chambered in an AR-15, if you are into that type of thing.

 

[beerslurpy]

Aerodynamics doesnt matter below the speed of sound. There are papers on this. First off, it is harder to stabilize match style bullets. Secondly, even ignoring stability, the enormous amount of decelerative energy created by leaving a mach cone is absent in a subsonic round.

The basic idea is that below the speed of sound, bullets bleed off energy very slowly regardless of shape. Unfortunately they are also moving very slowly so they fall very fast. However, you can compensate for this out to 200 yards without extraordinary effort, or so I have read. The 45ACP DeLisle carbine was a 250-300 yard gun during WWII. Pretty scary when you consider how quiet it was.

About stabilization, one point to make regarding wounding. A bullet that is stabilized in the air when subsonic is also stabilized going through flesh or any other medium. The bad of this is that a 45 ACP round will cut a .45 sized hole while a 30 whisper FMJBT will leave a .30 sized hole. The upside is that the 30 whisper will penetrate a lot farther, possibly going through light body armor, while the 45 acp will almost certainly not penetrate.

 

[444]

I didn't really expand on that point but what I am looking for in buying a new suppressed bolt action rifle is longer/longish range and precision accuracy. That is why I am much more interested in cartridges that fire spitzer bullets through a precision, scoped rifle.
However, I didn't start the thread so my desires might not be important to this thread.

"The 45ACP DeLisle carbine was a 250-300 yard gun during WWII. "
I recently bought a book entitled "Silencer, History and Perfomance Volume II" http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/15...ref=sr_1_2/104-1347011-0378360?_encoding=UTF8
It has a whole chapter on the DeLisle. It exhibited very mediocre accuracy at 50 yards. I seriously doubt that it is capable of regularly hitting a human at even 100 yards.
One of my best friends owns a reproduction that was made from the original drawings. At 50 yards, from a sandbagged benchrest, you would be lucky to keep all your shots in a group the size of a human head. Well, actually it shoots a group of maybe 4" at 50 yards with random fliers that are WAY away from the group. Who knows when one of those is going to occur ? Murphy would say it would be when you were making a critical, all or nothing shot.

 

[beerslurpy]

I want that as well, but not in this particular rifle. I eventually plan to do a 308 with a giant can, but only for use as a long range rifle.

edit: ok I stand corrected on 45 acp accuracy. But it wont be a big deal to me. If the gun is quiet enough to kill squirrels and (walter mitty time) goblins out to 22 LR ranges, I will be thrilled.

But who knows how his barrel was shortened and crowned or how the bafffles were arranged? Bullets might have been destabliizing on the way out the barrel for all we know.

 

[444]

With a more modern platform and modern suppressor, I am sure you could make a huge improvement in the accuracy department over the DeLisle. But I have to question whether a modern muzzle can would hold a candle to a DeLisle. That thing is quiet. Really, super, Hollywood quiet.
It ought to be. The suppressor is about 3" in diameter and about two feet or more in length.
My little AAC Evolution 9 is probably 1/8 it's size.

"But who knows how his barrel was shortened and crowned or how the bafffles were arranged? Bullets might have been destabliizing on the way out the barrel for all we know."

Right, it could be his rifle. I don't think he is getting baffle strikes or destabilized bullets because all the holes in the targets are normal looking. But, you never know: who knows what barrel he started with. The original DeLisle used a Thompson barrel. But, be that as it may, this was why I brought up the subject of that book I bought. It goes into great detail about the DeLisle and it's testing by the Brits during the war and they got about the same kind of accuracy he is; although they didn't mention the fliers. After reading that book, I was thinking that you could get just as good of accuracy out of a suppressed handgun and not have to carry around the weight. Although, as I keep saying, that DeLisle is super quiet. It may have been worth carrying anyway.
__________________

 

[beerslurpy]

The baffles in the DeLisle were horrible. I've seen one cut open and it was just a fancy washer and spacer design, sort of like the primary blast baffle for a MAC can. A modern reflex can with K-baffles should be quieter as well as lighter and smaller. Just consider how enormous an integral is compared to the average (nearly silent) 45 ACP muzzle can.

 

[Matt-man]

Aerodynamics doesnt matter below the speed of sound. There are papers on this.

Got any pointers to any of those? I'd like to check that out. As a high power shooter we try to keep our bullets supersonic so it's not an area that I've had exposure to.

 

[444]

With super accurate .22 LR match shooting, you start off with subsonic bullets, don't you ?

 

[beerslurpy]

Yeah, apparently there is a huge problem when bullets transition from supersonic to subsonic. It destablizes them i beleive. So there is a huge advantage to staying supersonic once you have decided that is where you want to be.

All the 22LR target stuff is subsonic I beleive.

I'm super tired right now. I'll try to find that subsonic reloading and ballistics page tomorrow.

 

[only1asterisk]

If you aren't going to load your own ammo, you limit your options severely.

Suppressors cost money. You are going to drop at least $500 to get an inexpensive level can. I think you should look at an absolute minimum $1250 plus transfer fees budget for bolt rifle less optics.

The Rhineland Arms/Enfield would be fun and certainly the cheapest. With a muzzle can you could bring it home for less than $1100.

Rounds like the 300 whisper and 338 Spectre offer the very best performance for your money. The 300 Whisper is easiest to setup and about as quiet as you can make a rifle. I’d buy a Savage Model 10FP in .223 and have a spare 300 Whisper barrel made. About $1250.

If you really want a semi auto .45 you could go the AR15 route with a Cavalry Arms lower and Hahn block for grease gun magazines. For $1450+ you will have a 100 yard rifle that weighs as much as an AR10, balances poorly, doesn’t hold the bolt open on the last shot and isn’t as quiet as some of the other options. You could scare up a Marlin camp carbine, pay way too much for it and maybe get out for $1200 or so.

Aerodynamics doesnt matter below the speed of sound.

Of course it does. Ask people that have practical knowledge, like long range black powder competitors.

About stabilization, one point to make regarding wounding. A bullet that is stabilized in the air when subsonic is also stabilized going through flesh or any other medium. The bad of this is that a 45 ACP round will cut a .45 sized hole while a 30 whisper FMJBT will leave a .30 sized hole.

The violent transition between air and flesh is often more than enough to destabilize a modestly stable bullet. I think terminal effects are a bit more complicated than you present.

Good luck with you project,

David