Help me pick my boys a mil-surp.

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TCB in TN

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I have owned several different mil-surp rifles in the past, including a 1903 Springfield given to me by my grandfather. In the past I have also owed a couple of different Enfield's, as well as AK's/SKS's (let all of them go, except the 03 after my divorce in 1996), and my nephew recently got an arsenal refinished MN 1944 carbine that is pretty good also. My boys (11 and 14) are avid hunters and shooters, and each time I take out my old 1903 I get the same comments from them each wanting it for their own someday. What I have in mind is buying them both a couple of Mil-surp rifles that I can let them have as they get older (not letting my 1903 go till I do). And again while I have some experience with the above rifles I know that there are a lot of other options that might be pretty good as well, and I don't really know much about any other than the above. So all of you true Mil-surp experts please give me the finer points of your fav. rifle (both pro's and con's), please also include a basic price and your take on ammo availability. I plan on buying in pairs, one for each, or I might just buy a 3rd for myself:D.
 
You will get a bunch of good answers, but they probably won't help you narrow it down any!

Of course, the 1903 and 1903A3 are wonderful rifles -- true classics -- but they are getting quite pricey. If you can get one through CMP they're still only $500 or so, but I believe they're out of stock currently. Gun show prices are much closer to (or over) $1000.

The original 8mm K98 Mauser is a wonderful choice, for probably under $300 if you look around, and its cousins the M24 and 48 Mausers (other countries' variants) are great and very cheap. Well under $150 for either of those. Watch out for corrosive surplus ammo (and clean it right if you shoot that).

Enfields are cool, though the ammo is getting really scarce (for surplus) or expensive. A No.4 will probably run you $250, and you can get the No1.MkIIIs for much less than that -- sometimes under $100. Again, watch for the corrosive ammo.

There are a bunch of other surplus bolt guns that could be cool to own (7MM Mausers, Carcanos, Arisakas, etc., etc.) but they're not as common, certainly not as cheap, and the ammo is not as common or cheap, either.

So that narrows it down to my current favorite pick: The Swiss K-31! Talk about a SWEETHEART of a rifle! Based on the Schmidt-Reuben straight-pull system, the engineering and machining on these rifles is astonishing. The stock inletting is *airtight* and they are jaw-droppingly accurate. I took mine out for the first time in about a year recently, plopped down at the bench and shot a 1" group at 100 yds. -- with the original iron sights -- and I could hardly even see the target that day! Now, the kicker is this: I bought that rifle from a dealer for $125! Beat THAT!

Ammo is 7.5 Swiss which is becoming very common. It's pretty much the same as a slightly lighter version of .308. It is not as cheap as some of the other (usually corrosive, often very old and nasty!) surplus ammo out there, but it is all made by the Swiss government and is match-grade. (It seems all the Swiss really ever do with their rifles is shoot matches -- VERY WELL, TOO -- and they built service rifles that will shoot rings around most others.) The ammo is around $0.40 a shot (way less than commercial hunting ammo) and comes packed in nice cartons, battle packs, cases, etc.

The rifle is fed from a 6-round detachable magazine, but the mags are fit and serial numbered to each rifle, and so are not intended to be swapped. Loading is through the top of the action via stripper clips. The clips are very unusual in that they are metal and cardboard. The cardboard is heavily waxed and waterproof. They are also unique in that they really WORK and work fast and smoothly.

Anyway, that's my recommendation. You certainly can't go wrong with one!

Good luck!

-Sam
 
consider some sporterized M1917's can be found very often ar fair prices. and offer the boys the choice of,

A: the most honorable cause for gunowners, restoring and preserving historical firearms
or
B: a cheap hunting rifle.

Mosins are CHEAP CHEAP CHEAP still. maybe even some 35$ t53's left. ammo still relatively cheap but going fast

enfields are cool but getting price in ammo and rifles

k31's are UBER accurate, and some what pricey but with Wolf now making ammo and still some GP11 left, ammo ist Horibble.

M1 Garand, nuff said

K98. rifles expensive, ammo cheap

yugo M24/47 or M48, basiclay Mausers. but much cheaper, cheap ammo.
 
8mm surplus ammo seems to have gotten pricey lately. Go with a rugged Mosin Nagant M44. For kids that age a slip-on shoulder pad may be prudent.
Click to expand...

Actually both pretty much ignore recoil. My 11 year old killed his first 2 deer last year, the 1st with his grandpa's remmy 7400 30-06 and the 2nd with his uncle's Remmy 700 7mm mag. The older has been shooting center fire rifles with them or myself since he was 7 and the younger since he was 6. Both had HR 243's and told me that they were ready for much bigger better rifles so I bought each a bolt 30-06 (Mossberg and a Savage) last year and while they like them they both say they may want something bigger. My oldest shot my nephew's M44 a couple weeks ago and it didn't both him in the least. (He says he want's a 300 mag :rolleyes:). It is kind of funny, my oldest is 5'6" and 115lbs, very athletic and recoil just doesn't seem to bother him at all. My youngest is the same height and 105lbs, and he is pretty much the same way, while the oldest would shoot box after box of centerfire rounds, the younger usually just want to shoot 10 to 12 rounds at a time.

At that age I didn't like the recoil, now it didn't keep me from shooting, and I wasn't afaid, I just didn't like it. With them, they are just almost oblivious to it. BTW my oldest killed a doe today on during his juv. hunt, younger didn't see anything but is headed back out in the morning.
 
I recommend a couple of 7.62 Nato Springfields A2's I think they are both around $200 in the buying/ selling section(one is in Tx, one Ind)
 
Greetings Sir

That sounds like one of the best reasons to buy one of these classic rifles.:D

As a military firearms buff for much of my life a few things come to mind.

The inexpensive German and Swedish Mauser's are gone same as the 1903A1 and 1903A3s among other fine old classics.

Out of the current remaining models and types that have been imported or are still turning up a few thoughts come to mind and my top three choices are listed below.

Being that these are going to be given as gifts to your sons I would not make a 1938 91/30 or 1944 models my first choice unless budget is a main concern.

The Russian rifles are not in the same league as other milsurps considering all points.
They do cost less than the other military rifles because they made them by the millions often during some hard times and conditions with some examples and some not so good examples showing up.
One has to cherry pick and choose very carefully as accuracy can vary greatly as can bore condition and overall quality of parts and fit and finish.

Even a nice one on its best day is not equal to a Finnish one IMO from all the ones I have seen.:D

THE best Mosin Nagant rifles IMO and are the Finnish 28-30 and M-39 if they did not meet a certain standard of accuracy and quality during the different inspections they were either fixed or rebuilt until they did.
Most of the Finn rifles were rebuilt by Sako Valmet or Tikka (91/30s)
Until recently these rifles were sorted and stored being held in reserve they were also used for training until not too long ago some have had little use others never were issued others have seen combat during the Continuation War and then there are the sneaks ones built in the late 1960s.

The numbers of Finnish rifles produced never equaled the millions of each model that the Russian made and issued.
They are rapidly gaining collector rifle status as the old Springfield's and Swedish Mauser did years ago.

A good .303 Enfield SMLE MK III or No I or II MK IV would also be on my list they are one of the best of the bolt action battle rifles they may not have the best accuracy but they are one of the fastest bolt actions with allot of history behind them.
Rugged reliable and very fast to shoot using the Walbridge method of operating the bolt.:evil:
Look for these to go up in price and scarcity as countries who used to allow its citizens to own them continue to cut them up or ban them.
The best years of the inexpensive SMLE & Enfields are behind us at least so it seems so get one while you can.

Another classic well made surplus rifle is the Schmidt Rubin Swiss K 31 these are a straight pull rifle and are among some of the finest rifles built IMO I would not want to see what a US company would charge to manufacture one exactly like it today the cost would be way up there.
The only drawback to owning one is it can be hard to find ammunition and it can be spendy when you do but that is changing somewhat.
It is THE fastest bolt action pull bolt back push bolt forward thats it!
It has out of the box accuracy equal to many current hunting rifles and its built like a Swiss watch and like the Finnish Mosin's only limited numbers were built so expect prices to go only higher.

I know your sons will appreciate whatever you give them.;)

Best of luck
 
For your boys? Hm. All are good choices; since they are bolt guns, it is super easy to reload for them all cheaply - except for 8mm mauser. The cost of the rifle does not really matter as you can always get shooters with excellent bores. further, the value of these rifles will only increase so you'll never be wasting money.

1. Finn M39 Great hunting rifle, great accuracy, real solid and stunning stocks. .311 diameter bullet, 5 rounds in fixed magazine. rifle sights. expect 2.5 MOA.
2. Swiss K31 like a rolex. not the most reliable action but smooth and precise. .308 diameter bullet, 6 rounds in detachable magazine (repro magazines are available and work well). rifle sights. expect 1 MOA
3. Enfield No.4 MK1, MK2, MK1/2. very accurate, ghost ring sights. 10rnd mag, detachable but not easily. second in speed only to K31. .311 bullet. expect 2.5 MOA
4. Yugoslavian M24/47 or M48. fairly accurate. smooth action, reliable extraction, 5 round fixed magazine. available in unissued condition if you look hard enough. expect 3 MOA on rifle sights. heavy .323 diameter bullet.
5. Russian M38 carbine. short, light carbine is remarkably handy with a 5 round fixed magazine. rifle sights. quite affordable in excellent condition at the moment. expect 4 MOA, rifle sights. .311 bullet.
 
boy, this could be tough. I suppose one could say to go with one, where not just milsurp, but factory made ammo is most common. So for that, you could look at something in 30.06, maybe then 6.5 swede, 7.5 swede, 8mm mauser, 762.54 russian, in that order. Of these, I think that the prettiest, sweetest, most accurate, would be anything made american, from ww1 up to the garands, and of course anything made by the swedes or finns. next I would go with any type mauser, then finally the russian mosins; they will be cheapest, most plentiful, and ammo can be had at gunshows, or made by Wolf, so off of the internet will be easy as well. They will also look the cheapest, and ugliest, but can be surprisingly accurate. I bought a origional , unfired m38 that is sick accurate, and even though i am a muscular dude, shooting it with a small size Butler creek slip on pad, is a night and day difference.
 
I think I'd have to get at least 1 Garand from CMP for them. If you take them to one of the CMP classes they get a bit of training AND qualify for the purchase. It'll take you 3-4 months to get it but it'd be a really nice mate to your 1903.

Just my .02

Regards,
Dave
 
My fellow members have all offered good advice. It's hard to go to far wrong with almost any surplus rifle if it's in good shape for a fair price. Another important factor is ammo cost/availability. It might be wise to buy a few cases of surplus ammo to put back in "the stash", for whatever rifles you choose. Right now the best deals are on 7.62x39 and 7.62x54R. Might be prudent to lay in some of the Greek 30/06 for your '03 as well. It's a real good value for the money, especially in today's ammo market. Best of luck in whatever choice you make.

-jagd
 
based on them liking the 03, you cant go wrong with a mauser. you can probably find a good shooter for 70-80 bucks anywhere. the 03s action is based on the mauser action as well. i dont think ive ever shot a mauser that didnt shoot straight and they arent that difficult to maintain either. ammo is cheap. the gun is cheap. they shoot good. what more do they need?

well, depending on how old they are, i can see the 8mm round having a good sized kick to it and hurting their arms a little. no worse than an 03 though
 
Thanks for the suggestions guys, I don't have any experience with the K31 or any of the mauser's but I am leaning towards one or the other. AIM has the Swiss 1931 Carbine Schmidt Rubin K31 for 199.99 each. (+ shipping and transfer) or the Maus24/47 Yugoslavian Model M24/47 8mm Mauser Rifle for 119.9 each. (looking at the pics on line, it appears that I can very good conditioned shooter this way, and the boys will want to shoot them)

So to those who know about the two what are the pro's and con's of each.
 
Hi!

I have one of each, (K-31 and M-24/48 Mauser) and they are both wonderful rifles.

The Mauser is "the" classic bolt-rifle. Mine cost $129 a few years back and can ring gongs at 200 yds. all day long. Ammo is still pretty plentiful and cheap, but there's a lot of corrosive, low-quality, VERY old surplus ammo around that may or may not be worth your time to deal with. I have 400 rds left of a batch of '63 manufactured Argentine 8mm that will rust the bore if left for more than a few hours and misfires every 8 rounds or so (but usually goes bang on the second try!). But I think it was $100 for $1250 rds or so, so what do you expect? Also, a lot of it was manufactured for the MG-38 and MG-42 belt-fed machine guns and is pretty HOT. It can't harm the rifle and is safe to shoot, but it may have you looking for a heavier coat or a recoil pad sooner than the standard stuff. Also can be a little stiff to extract.

The rifles are high quality, but often have been used/stored hard and may need some cleaning up.

The K-31s are just amazing rifles. They are pleasantly "non-standard" with that straight-pull action, but shooting one will make you a believer. I told the story about sub-MOA groups when I could hardly see the target. You will never buy ANYTHING that is higher quality for the money! The engineering and craftsmanship that went into these rifles makes their price tag almost an insult.

The prices on the K-31s has been going up recently, and I'd imagine $199 is the going rate now. Still a steal of a deal at that price.

As I said, pretty much all the ammo available is match-grade surplus stuff, and worth the price. Again, I wouldn't go swapping mags as these rifles were never intended to be used this way, but some folks do.

One other thing, as these were issued to Swiss soldiers who kept them at home and cared well for them, the often have hand-written ID cards under the butt-plate giving the name and address of the original user. That doesn't make them shoot better, but it makes me smile when I shoot mine! (But quarter-sized groups with iron sights does that, too!)

Can't go wrong with either one, but the K-31 is really, REALLY hard to beat!

-Sam
 
Silverlance, I haven't found reloading 8mm Mauser to be expensive. Hornady bullets are available for it for ~$20 per 100.

If they like the `03 then the only logical choice is to get the rifles which rthe `03 is based on-the Mauser.
 
If you can get two K31's for your kids, I would do it. Those are rifles that people will be drooling over many years down the road. If I remember correctly, they only built a little over 500,000 of them. Compare that to the 20 million Mosins in the world.
 
You've been given many choices,all good. MilSurps never lack
history and tradition even those not predominately known as
"war rifles." I'm of course not privy to your financial constraints,
but I think this would be a perfect time to stick with family
tradition and go with an 03 or 03A3. When I think back on all
the money I spent on plastic junk and fad electronics for my
kids, I wish I had bought my son one. Now he carries an M4
and it's too late. They'll continue to increase in value and
become more rare, 30-06 will never be hard to get and they
can be reloaded as pussycats or Elk pounders. They're US
and their history is an exciting tale, not to mention one of the
finest, most durable rifles ever built. My .02.
 
The primary reason that I have not bought a couple of 03's for them is that most of the rifles have seen have NOT been in the condition I can get other types of rife's for much less. I have not found an 03 or 30A3 that was anywhere close the condition I wanted and the prices have been at or above $1000. I have seen a few other types of rifles in excellent condition for much less. I would prefer to have another 03 but for the money I don't think it is anywhere near the deal. And at the risk of speaking some hearesy I am not just a huge Garand fan, I do like them but not as well as many of the other guns I have owned.
 
11 and 14
Click to expand...

I wonder how much weight is going to be an issue. Most milsurps weigh more than Remchesters. A full size war rifle will weigh 9-11 lbs. The carbines are down towards 8, but they're a handful.
 
They shoot my 03 just fine, both while not big kids are excellent athletes (both are starters on the JV and Varsity basketball teams) work out hard and are very strong.
 
You should give them Mosins, then. A pair of M-39 Finns. The ammo is easier to find both in modern production and surplus than 7.5 Swiss, and the rifles are workhorses.
 
I would prefer to have another 03 but for the money I don't think it is anywhere near the deal.
Click to expand...
TCB, they're never going to get cheaper... ya know?
Check out this estate auction set for next Sat Nov 3. You can bid online.

http://www.proxibid.com/asp/Catalog.asp?aid=9005

Jerry Darnell loved firearms and had I believe 2800 or so (or maybe there's only 2800 left). They're being auctioned off 500 +/- at a time. I think this is the fifth such auction. Get your FFL lined up.
Look at the Swedes (several), the 03's (several), 98's (gobs of em) and Arisakas (a bunch), 1917's, not to mention SMLE's, Swiss (not too many actually), MN91's, etc.
The last auctions people got them relatively cheap, right at or below market value (unless bidders went crazy) since most bidder's factored in the auction houses percentage (some say it's kinda steep) and held up knowing there'd be another auction or four.
Anyway, there's 22 pages of guns and bayonets worth drooling over and dreaming about.

Failing that, listen to Cosmoline and others about a pair of Finn 91's for the young gentlemen. (Check out lot #46, a 1915 mfg Westinghouse hex receiver MN 91 with current bid of $21.00)
 
That's not much more to say.
I have a 91/30 and M44 Mosin Nagant and a 1917 Enfield. I enjoy shooting all 3 but the Mosin's are cheaper to shoot even though I reload for the 30-06.

Any of the Mauser variants on the market wouldn't be a bad choice either.
 
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