Help me pick! Which "wondernine" for competition...

[Sam1911]

Hi guys!

So yesterday at the Wilkes-Barre Rifle and Pistol Club's 2009 IDPA Independence Match, I won one of the S.O. drawings for a gun! (Hey, there's a first time for everything!) So I'm holding a certificate for a brand new xDM 9mm!

Cool!

But here's my conundrum: I've been thinking about getting into the 9mm end of the sport for a long time, as I've always shot only .45 1911 and my .44 629. I'm classed in CDP, ESP, SSR, and ESR -- with those two guns. I have had the long-term plan of breaking into SSP sooner or later and have been kind of eyeing the M&P Pro. It seems like EVERYONE and their brother who shoot IDPA shoot the M&P -- I watched Dave Olhasso take CDP Division Champion with an M&P at last year's Nationals -- and I personally know and shoot with one of the more well-known M&P gunsmiths (Burwell) who has tweaked a great many of the M&Ps I see fielded around here.

On the other hand, I know several shooters (some SSP Masters, in fact) who have experienced persistent trouble with their M&Ps. (Extraction problems mostly.) And, from their stories, S&W has had the guns back, in some cases several times, and has eventually become very stand-offish about remedying the situation. I'll chalk this up to "everyone makes a lemon sometimes" and probably would take my chances.

Also, the most accurate insanely fast shooter I've ever seen, told me after Nationals last year that he was putting away his Glocks to concentrate on the M&P. I noticed yesterday that he's back to the Glocks. I didn't get to ask why, but his dalliance with S&W doesn't appear to have lasted an entire year.

AAAAAaanyway, now I'm getting an xDM 9! That's really COOL. I'm grateful, and pleased. But, I don't know how it fits in my plans. First, of course, an xD doesn't play in SSP. So that's off the table. Second, I really don't know anything much about xDs. I see them at matches some, but my idea of an ESP gun is a 9mm or .40 1911, and I'm kind of skeptical that an xD is a faster/better choice for that. The only xD I've shot was a .45, and it was VERY accurate and pointed well for me, but that was a while back, and like I said, I don't see many of the Class or Division winners shooting them, so I've not been paying a lot of attention to them.

"On the third hand" I remember that the xDM 9 was REALLY popular when it was introduced and the press made a huge deal out of it. And Springfield seems to have tried to make it the very best competition gun as could be on the xD platform. So I'm sure it won't SUCK.

SO, what to do?

Keep the XDM and shoot it in ESP and just enjoy a well-built and perfectly fine weapon that's probably just as competitive as I'm able to be?

Sell it NIB, unfired, and get the M&P Pro? Not sure how I'll make out on that deal. I'll probably lose a bit of money in transfer fees and such -- not sure if the retail prices are equivalent, either.

Or, the "left field" option, sell it and get a CZ SP-01 or Phantom, or Witness Match, or the like which I could run in either SSP or ESP? (I've always kind of wanted to get a CZ as they are adored by their fans and I'm sure are quite fine pistols.)

Please don't say, "Get whichever you want." If I knew which I really wanted to shoot and which I could do best with, I'd have already made up my mind.

Please don't say "Get a Glock." Nothing against them, I've shot plenty, just not my thing.

I really do appreciate any experienced, well-considered advice, from fellow competitors. (Yeah, that means USPSA types, too! ) What should I do and why?

THANKS!

-Sam

 

[jmorris]

I’m a 4 gun master in IDPA (hopefully 5 after nationals this year) and I used an SVI to bump to master in CDP and ESP. It uses different barrels, extractors, ejectors, magazines and breech face but the rest is the same pistol. SSP bumped using a glock 34. Glocks have been the most predominant pistols at the nationals that I’ve seen the surveys from. There is no “perfect” pistol for everyone or there would only be one; however, IDPA is not kind to the XD and the one I got off the prize table was sold NIB.

 

[Sam1911]

I’m a 4 gun master in IDPA (hopefully 5 after nationals this year)

Cool! Good luck at Nats. Grumble, grumble...wish I could go...

There is no “perfect” pistol for everyone or there would only be one; however, IDPA is not kind to the XD and the one I got off the prize table was sold NIB.

Kind of what I'm thinking. I'm considering asking the FFL that transfers it for me if he'd do a swap on an M&P. It's a NIB gun (heck, I've never even seen it) so it should be worth full retail. He'd probably want me to sweeten the pot a bit.

Thanks for your thoughts!

-Sam

 

[Jim Watson]

I think that would be the right approach for IDPA. You can shoot the S&W in either SSP or ESP. If I were doing it, I would sweeten the pot enough for a Plastic M&P Pro with its longer barrel, factory fibre optic sight, and better factory trigger (on the only one I have seen in person.)

S&W really did a number on IDPA and assorted police departments, getting the Plastic M&P rated as a double action equivalent. The gun is no more a double action than a 1910 Browning. The sear just rocks down enough to release the striker, any camming back is a matter of thousandths of an inch, I have seen single action hammers move as far.

 

[Sam1911]

I think that would be the right approach for IDPA.

Sheesh...I just spoke to another buddy of mine who shoots SSP (granted, he's only an Expert ... ) who went whole hog for the M&P, but now says, "I'd hold off on the M&P" because his has had such horrible extraction problems. He says by the end of the first 500 rounds it had gotten WORSE, and was FTE once per mag! It's back from S&W with a polished chamber and new extractor, but he's kind of looking at it with a 10' pole.

What to do...

Maybe that CZ is the right choice. Which CZ? Another friend just picked up a 75B and a bunch of mags for $400. Might be worth shopping around...

Again, thanks much for the thoughts!

-Sam

 

[Jim Watson]

Well, MY Plastic M&P works well, and has a nice trigger after a trip to Mr Burwell.

Nothing wrong with a CZ, I have shot one of those in SSP, too. Occasionally a SO will get nervous at the sight of your lowering the hammer for a DA start in SSP, but he will get over it... if you don't drop the hammer and dump one at his feet, of course.

 

[Sam1911]

Well, MY Plastic M&P works well, and has a nice trigger after a trip to Mr Burwell.

Yeah, he's quite the salesman for the brand, isn't he? I think about 1/2 the M&Ps I've seen in competition have had his loving care. He advised my pal with the Jam-O-Matic that the trouble should be passed and that the polished chamber and new extractor should be the ticket.

All I know is that I've never seen his or his wife's M&Ps jam. (He took Division Champion in SSP at the match this weekend.) Go figure. I'd ask his opinion on the matter, but I kind of think I already know what he'd say.

-Sam

 

[KegCommando]

IDPA is not kind to the XD

Why is that?

 

[Sam1911]

Why is that?

Mostly because the xD should by all rights compete against the Glocks & M&Ps in SSP. Unfortunately, due to how it was defined when imported (IIRC), it is classified as a "single action" pistol, so it falls into the Enhanced Service Pistol category, not Stock Service Pistol. So it has to compete against the 9mm, .38 Super, and .40 S&W 1911s, CZs starting cocked-&-locked, and anything else like that, which have the advantage of a consistent SA trigger pull, short reset, more weight to tame recoil, etc. Kind of leaves the xD as the red-headed stepchild of IDPA.

An inspection of the lockwork of the xD, S&W M&P, and Glock show pretty much the same kinds of things going on, leading most folks to feel that the xD classification is at best arbitrary -- and probably grossly incorrect.

This isn't that big a deal unless you're REALLY competitive, and perhaps even if you are but train on that platform enough. But few shooters choose to do so.

Ironically, though, as I pointed out before, some top shooters are thinking outside the box and doing strange stuff like shooting .45 M&Ps in CDP instead of the classic 1911. So, anything is possible.

-Sam

 

[KegCommando]

Interesting. Thank you.

 

[Barbara]

I shoot a G19 because its more comfortable for me, but know dozens of people who shoot competition with or carry M&Ps on a daily basis with no trouble. I've heard of extraction problems but haven't seen them.

As far as the XD, the one I had wasn't reliable. YMMV.

 

[Sam1911]

As far as the XD, the one I had wasn't reliable. YMMV.

I've been doing a bunch of internet research on the xD/xDM this week and have run across very few mentions of failures of any kind (certainly far less than with the M&P, for example).

Can you explain what the issues were with yours?

Many thanks!

-Sam

 

[Nuke8401]

I just received door prize M&P 9mm (not the Pro) from the 2009 S&W indoor nationals. I will be shooting it tonight at S&W for the first time (IDPA Match), I have about 200 rds through it with no issues. I did most of the Burwell trigger work 2 nights ago and dry fired it for a few hours. The trigger is much improved from out-of-box, but still heavy compared to my G34. I like the trigger function much better than my G34, which I have been shooting in SSP for a couple of years now. I still need new sights, the white three dots don't work for me compared to Warren Tacticals. So with sights and a 13lb main spring on the way I will be testing and comparing it to the G34 over the next few weeks/months. No experience with the XD. Quite a few M&Ps being shot at the S&W IDPA matches lately.

In reality, my experience is that as long as a gun functions the results are much more dependant on the shooter than the gun. But like many I want the best I can get.

I will post some updates on my switch to the M&P.

Keep us up to date if you go to the XD.


Signed, A SSP EX that enjoys beating SSP MAs on a routine bases.

 

[Sam1911]

In reality, my experience is that as long as a gun functions the results are much more dependant on the shooter than the gun.

"It's the indian, not the (ballistic tupperware) arrows!"

A bunch of friends of mine were at the S&W Nat's match this year...including one pal who left a bit early with a very unfortunate "door prize." Otherwise a great time was had by all.

Good luck, and do let us know how the M&P runs for you!

-Sam

 

[Jim Watson]

I really get tired of the indian and arrow business.

True, a Master class shooter doesn't need a first class gun to beat me, but he needs the best he can get to beat the other Masters.

 

[Sam1911]

I really get tired of the indian and arrow business.

Wow. Didn't mean to get under your skin. Accept my apologies.

True, a Master class shooter doesn't need a first class gun to beat me, but he needs the best he can get to beat the other Masters.

Of course, but I'll counter that sometimes this isn't strictly true. My best example is the one I mentioned before. Dave Ohlasso won Division Champion in CDP at Nationals last year (even though he threw an extra round and forced an unneccessary reload on my stage) -- with a .45 M&P.

Regardless of Dan Burwell (actually, probably Dave himself) putting a fantastic trigger in it, or any other work he might have done to that gun, was that "the best he can get" for CDP? His M&P is now the gold standard for the best .45 cal autoloader that meets the guidelines set out in that division? Better than the best 1911 that Wilson, Brown, STI, Springfield's Custom Shop, or any other famously good 1911 shop could produce?

He won because that day, in that place, he was that good with that gun. Even though, with all the mods he could throw at it, it probably isn't worth 1/3 what some of the guns he beat would cost. Truth be told, it isn't 1/3 as "good" as those guns in any measurable way. But HE was good enough that day that it didn't matter what gun the rest of the CDP masters brought.

So maybe the indians/arrows comment is bunk. But to a degree, it isn't.

-Sam

 

[Howard B]

Sam,

While I am not and most likely will never be an any # of guns master in IDPA (too old & slow) I did make HM in HighPower for whatever that may be worth (actually not much anymore). Regardless, I shoot SSP and began with a G34 which I really like. I have been shooting a M&P Pro for about 6 months. Sadly, I only have about 1,500 rnds through it. I have not had any issues with mine other than a couple FTFs which likely were a result of shoddy reloading or primers I bought during the '94 drought. I really like mine. I bought a second Pro and one of the JG M&Ps for my wife. I had trigger jobs done by Kenny Dickerson of Speed Shooter Specialties in Brunswick GA and couldn't be more pleased with his work. And the mags just jump out of them when you hit the release.....

I wonder what percentage of all M&P users are represented by those who have had bad luck. If I could get either of my 9mm 1911s to work half as reliably as my M&P, I'd be happy beyond words.

 

[Jim Watson]

I think Dave O. won because he put in some practice with that 1/3 the price plastic gun. Which made it the best in his hands. I understand that Jerry M. and Dave S. can get hits with a nice 1911, too; but they are famous for their performance with revolver and Glock, respectively.

Which reminds me of a response by a shooter here, a USPSA Grand Master. A wannabe said "Stan, I wish I had your talent." Stan replied "Yep, talent is good, especially if you help it along with ten years and a million rounds."

 

[David E]

If you LIKE the XDm, then keep it. Send it to Rich at www.canyoncreekcustom.com for a trigger job and kick ass in ESP.

If you don't like it as much as the Pro, then sell/trade it for the Pro.

 

[Sam1911]

I think Dave O. won because he put in some practice with that 1/3 the price plastic gun. Which made it the best in his hands.

Well, shucks. That sounds like the "indians and arrows" comment, doesn't it? He didn't NEED the highest end 1911 he could get to beat the other CDP masters.

I understand that Jerry M. and Dave S. can get hits with a nice 1911, too; but they are famous for their performance with revolver and Glock, respectively.

Funny thing about that -- there was a little side match at Nat's where everyone who signed up shot the same compact Wilson 9mm 1911 (some new model they were showing off), like 15 rds. When they posted the results, Jerry wasn't up top. In fact, I did better! (Along with probably 20-30 others.) Don't know if he sand-bagged it, or the gun was just odd & small & unfamiliar enough to throw him off. I'll always remember, though, that there was this ONE TIME... I don't recall if Sevigny shot it or not.

"Yep, talent is good, especially if you help it along with ten years and a million rounds."

Amen!

-Sam

 

[Sam1911]

If you LIKE the XDm, then keep it....and kick ass in ESP.

I got to shoot a 9mm xD at practice last night. No problems with the gun. Seems like a decent piece and the xDM can only be better, right?

Talked to a bunch of guys I shoot with a lot who shoot both the xD and M&P, and I think I've finally decided that I'm not likely to get a better gun (certainly not for the price!) and my desire to shoot in SSP is pretty much irrelevant to me getting this wonderful windfall. Get it, shoot it, love it.

If you don't like it as much as the Pro, then sell/trade it for the Pro.

Yup. If I don't love it after a few 1000 rds, I'm not out anything, and have good trade fodder towards the next thing.

Thanks to all for the advice!

-Sam

 

[sargenv]

It's not a Wondernine by any means, but if you want something in a double stack 9mm that feels like a 1911, take a look at the LDA in 9mm. I have one for production class and like the fact that I can use it in the same fobus holster that I use for 3-gunning with my P16. I don't have to change out mag pouches.. just ammo. Standard cap mags are 18 rounds I think.. unfortunately only 10 in Cali

 

[jmorris]

I had a P18 LDA LTD but I had a rare case of luck when I sold it before the IDPA rule change made it illegal for SSP.

 

[Sam1911]

Followup:

I have the gun. I like the gun. I think we'll get along fine.

Trigger isn't great, but it isn't heavy or stagey. Just a lot of creep and kind of a mushy break. But, as I've been shooting revolver for the last year, I should be able to pull through it.

I've seen write-ups on the great aftermarket kits available for it, and may go that way someday. I've also read that there may be some difficulty with doing a DIY trigger job due to the surface finish on the sear, but I haven't disassembled it far enough to see about that for myself.

The biggest thing I want done is the reset shortened a bit. If there is a link anywhere to a write-up on that, I'd love to see it!

I won't get to shoot it until practice on Thursday, but seeing as the only ammo I have is 72 rounds donated by friends, I guess that will have to do!

Thanks again to all those who helped and advised!

-Sam
P.S. -- Comp ready out of the box! Yeah...except that even us IDPA types need 3 mags. I can't complain, though... the gun was free so all I'm out is $30 for a mag which should be here tomorrow.

 

[David E]

Trigger isn't great, Just a lot of creep and kind of a mushy break. The biggest thing I want done is the reset shortened a bit.

Again, Rich at Canyon Creek Custom can fix that up for you. He does such a great job, it's almost like cheating......