Help Me Plan a Tactical Shotgun

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Andrewsky

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I was thinking of building on a Remington 870 Wingmaster, in 12 gauge with a 28" barrel.

I'd probably buy

An 18" barrel
An M4 stock
A surefire forend
A magazine extension

Where should I get all this stuff?

Or should I build on a Benelli Super Black Eagle (also set up as a hunting gun)?

Help please.
 
I don't know if I was clear, but I already have both of those shotguns.

How much is that FN pump action?

How much is a used 870 police and where can I find one? Aren't Wingmasters much better in quality than police models? Or not?
 
go to big 5 and buy a mossberg 500. then a collapsable stock. and then your light stuff. the only reason i say big 5 is a friend of mine bought one on sale for something like $220.
 
I have heard that the surefire forends leave little space for a good positive grip, so try to test one out before you buy one. There are other alternatives like a clamp that has a short accessory rail for adding a light.

Are you used to a regular stock? The adjustable stock with pistol grip really doesn't help you, and the MSRP is $129, and like $50 for the cheek pad and shell holder. If you can use the "stock" stock:)D) proficiently, why waste $130 on something that just makes it look pretty? I guess you need to ask yourself, "is this going to be more utilitarian, or something to look cool shooting?". But if you decide to go with the M4 stock whatever.

You also might want to get a side saddle. They hold something like 5 or 6 shells on the side of the receiver and are short money. there is a company that makes a side saddle like thing that encompasses most of the receiver, has shell holders on either side and a rail on the top but in my opinion it would just get in your way.
 
People like the Wingmaster over the Express because where the Express uses some plastic and MIM parts, the Wingmaster's are "real" metal. The Police versions of the 870 are all "real" metal also.

The Deer Hunter was talking about the Mesa Tactical shell-holder/scope rail thing. It's nice, it's all metal and it's EXPENSIVE!

The only M4 type stock I'd get would be the Knoxx SpecOps as it has the shock absorber built-in (and it DOES work well). But lately I've been drawn to the CompStock instead. It has the same recoil absorbing features with a traditional stock look.
 
The BEST fighting shotgun accessories I know of are:

http://www.yfainc.com/courses.html#shotgun1

http://www.randycain.com/shotgun.htm

http://www.defense-training.com/courses/shotgun.html

... and so on.

Nope, you get no kewl points for having a neat-looking scary black shotgun, no kewl pictures to post on the internet in your MySpace account, no groovy Youtube videos to impress your friends.

You get to make YOU a better shooter. You learn how to FIGHT with a shotgun, at the hands of a world class instructor. You improve your own personal software in ways that nothing will ever take away from you.

And none of it has anything to do with hardware, either.

Louis Awerbuck suggests 4 things for a fighting shotgun (from my class notes):

1) A stock short enough for you to shoot comfortably. Most shotgun stocks are too long for many shooters.

2) A sling- slings on shotguns are as necessary as holsters for pistols.

3) A white light source mounted on the gun.

4) Sights, if you need them. Sights should be steel and firmly mounted, screws or silver soldered on.

That's it for hardware suggestions from the man I think of as the master of the fighting shotgun.

His own gun that he lugs around with him as he teaches classes all over the country? A cut-down SXS double barrel. And he only uses slugs, he says he isn't smart enough to keep up with more than one kind of ammo.

Per your questions:

Stick with the 870, to start with.

Your stock? Whack off an inch or an inch and a half if it's long for you (and if it's wood), and mount a premium recoil pad (Remington R3, LimbSaver, etc). Forget putting a carbine stock on a shotgun, unless you are one of those poor unfortunates who got taught to shoot by Uncle Sam and never shot anything but an M-16 based platform. Traditional shotgun stocks were developed to aid in speedy POINTING of the gun. Why fight hundreds of years of evolution if you don't have to?

The 18" smoothbore barrel is a good idea on a defensive gun. A touch of choke (most new ones these days come with ImpCyl as factory standard) is a help over a straight cylinder bore IMHO. I like MOD if I can get it but those are few and far between without resorting to choke tubes- but once in a coon's age, Remington makes some. Getting the forcing cone extended will help more consistently to improve buckshot patterns than most anything else. If you plan to use the gun for wingshooting too, keep any sights on the barrel so they go away when you take the barrel off.

SureFire fore-ends are too short to leave enough room for my gorilla-sized mitt on the forearm. And that big ol' hump for the light to screw into beats my hand up under recoil. I gave up on SF some years ago, and use rail-mounted lights now. The rails (from Streamlight) mount under the magazine cap, or on a magazine extension.

Magazine extensions can help or hurt, depending on how good an extension you get. Remington's factory job is best IMO. With an 18" barrel you can mount a 2-shot extension without sticking the extension out from under the muzzle. That should do. And no matter how much you spend on an extension, put a clamp on it to reinforce the junction with the threads at the end of the magazine tube.

One of the facts of life is that no shotgun magazine is ever big enough, and you're better off learning to feed that puppy on the run than struggling to squeeze on just one more round of magazine capacity. That's where those class suggestions come into play again, BTW 8^). Nothing will teach you coolness under fire, keeping your gun loaded and shooting and un-fumbled-with more than a good class under a good instructor. Except a bunch of serious gunfights that is, and your chances of living through the class and learning a lot are MUCH better than surviving a bunch of gunfights.

Have fun and stay safe,

lpl/nc
 
Thank you Lee that's excellent information.

I want to clarify that this would be my home defense shotgun.

Let me ask a few more questions.:)

Would an assault weapons ban affect me in this area at all? Because if it won't maybe I should concentrate on things that might be banned.

How important is a sling for hd? Because to have one I'd have to switch out the furniture. I drilled the stock of my 10/22 and put sling swivels on and it turned out great, but I don't want to do that to a Wingmaster.

Can I put a light directly under the barrel if I don't have a magazine extension? Would the mount obscure my front sight?

If I have a bunch of night lights in my house and no one else lives with me, do I even need a light on the gun?

I think what I'm going to do is order an 18" barrel because I need that no matter what. I might just leave it like that. I love the look of an 870 with an 18" barrel and no mag extension. Kinda like this:

7r96e5m13.jpg
 
Let's see... one at the time:

Would an assault weapons ban affect me in this area at all? Because if it won't maybe I should concentrate on things that might be banned.
My success at predicting what politicians will do (or even which one will wind up in office in any given elsection) is... poor, let's say. I don't think any sort of ban will affect manually operated repeaters, but you never can tell what the slime of the earth I MEAN polytickians (poly= many, tickians =small bloodsucking creatures) will do. If you're working with limited funds and considering the possible effects of another incoming tsunami of regulation and control, you might want to try and lay in normal capacity magazines, the firearms that use them, and ammo for said firearms first, on the assumption (assume= making a what out of U and ME -heard this one before, right?) that they won't worry about something so prosaic as a manually operated repeating shotgun, because they didn't the last time around.

How important is a sling for hd? Because to have one I'd have to switch out the furniture. I drilled the stock of my 10/22 and put sling swivels on and it turned out great, but I don't want to do that to a Wingmaster.
I keep a sling on my house gun. My wife doesn't want them on hers. It's an answer to the question of what to do with the gun if you need your hands for something else in the middle of unfolding events, the sling lets you hang the gun on your body and keep control of it rather than just putting it down somewhere while you use the phone or whatever. It took me a long time to come around to that idea, but Awerbuck's class finally made me a believer.

And putting a sling on a Wingmaster is no disfigurement. Swap out the magazine cap for one with a QD stud (or install a stud in the existing mag cap), put another QD stud in the toe of the stock 3-4" from the butt and that's it. You can put on a sling or take it off as circumstances dictate, and a sling on a shotgun makes hauling it around in normal use a lot easier.

Can I put a light directly under the barrel if I don't have a magazine extension? Would the mount obscure my front sight?
Some mounts might get in the way. On the no-extension guns here I use the ring mount from Streamlight ( http://www.opticsplanet.net/streamlight-rem-870-tactical-mount-69906.html ) with an M3 or an LEDwave Z-5 light. On the magazine extension guns I use http://www.opticsplanet.net/streamlight-12ga-extended-mag-tube-tactical-mount-69901.html with the same lights. I'll eventually get around to replacing the incandescent bulb weapon lights here with LEDs for the shotguns but that may take a while.

If I have a bunch of night lights in my house and no one else lives with me, do I even need a light on the gun?
I want a light on the gun, and a reload on the gun, no matter what. I'm a worst-case scenario sort, if I gotta pick up a shotgun in the middle of the night I don't want to have to hunt for anything else that isn't on board the gun from the getgo. Serious robbers/home invaders these days will cut your power and your phone line before they come in. If you have the kind of night lights that double as power failure lights (we do...) then the night lights will still be of some help. But I want a light on whatever gun I grab too.

I think what I'm going to do is order an 18" barrel because I need that no matter what. I might just leave it like that.
You could do far worse for starters. You can always add more to the gun as time/money/skill/experience/training dictate.

No matter what, SHOOT THE GUN. Get on the list in the Lending Library here for the Awerbuck tape and watch it. Do some training on your own based on that tape. It is no substitute for the class, but it is a start at least in the right direction. Shooting skeet or trap, clays, wingshooting- anything that gets you trigger time on that platform (even with a different barrel) will help you build skills and groove muscle memory that will serve you well if things ever go south on you at 0200.

Stay safe,

lpl/nc
 
Also, one thing to consider, regarding mounting a flashlight on your gun....if your flashlight is bright enough, you could use it to blind and confuse any intruders, causing them to hesitate and/or unable to shoot accurately and allowing you to take them out easier.

Cops use flashlights to blind and disorient people all the time. Its the main reason why they will shine a light into your eyes at night; it gives them an edge if you turn out to be a bad guy.
 
Good advice so far, especially Lee's. A couple things.....

My HD pumps have no slings on them, but they are set up for them. Inside the house a sling can snag badly, outside it's absolutely essential.

Shooting your shotgun is crucial to becoming effective. Besides that tape and a class with a good instructor, regular range time is needed. Even shooting clays will help, especially doubles.

Finally, most folks who regularly go into harm's way with shotguns have fairly stock shotguns, universally adorned with wear marks.

There's a lesson there....
 
Never fought with a shotgun and only done a single 3-gun shoot, but I'm nodding my head (slowly, because I can't think too fast) in agreement with what I'm reading here - it's simple (like me) and makes perfect sense. Thanks.
 
Does anyone know where I can get a barrel for an 870 wingmaster? They're quite elusive (I don't want a Mossberg-made 870 barrel).
 
Have you tried Ebay? Local gun shows have been known to carry them as well.

Midwayusa.com had 20" barrels that would work great as well.
 
Remington used to list a basic 18" bead sighted barrel for $96 IIRC, I seem to have lost the parts list I had printed out and don't know if that's the case any more. If you have a faster connection than I look at the Parts Price List at http://www.remington.com/support/parts/ or give them a call- 1-800-243-9700.

BarrelExchange has lots at http://www.barrelexchange.com/ . Ebay has been a good source for me as well. as have the discount/closeout fliers from Natchez, Midway etc. And sometimes they turn up at your favorite FFL dealer's place too- you just have to keep looking.

Since you will be installing it on a Wingmaster, be sure the barrel ring on the extra barrel you're looking at has the spring-loaded detent installed that keeps the magazine cap in place when it is tightened- current production Express barrels lack this feature as they use a different system to retain the mag cap.

hth,

lpl/nc
 
20"" barrell

Remington doesn't make a Wingmaster 18.5" barrell. If you want it to match, the shortest barrell is the 20" with rifle sights.
 
Lee, thanks for the post on Barrel Exchange. I have been trying to get a 20 inch from benbelli for my M1 for 9 months! You rock!
 
John Rogers I saw your PM. Thanks for the offer and advice. I have a fixed amount to spend on firearms so I'm being as deliberate as possible.

Are you absolutely sure that Mossberg barrel will fit on a Wingmaster that was built about 15 years ago?
 
I'm as sure as you can be without actually testing on a 15-year old Wingmaster. Is your Wingmaster's barrel held in place by the detent in the barrel ring? Most new 870 Express barrels (and according to Remington, all new Wingmaster barrels) use a different system - with the "dimples" - and no longer have the barrel ring detent. I bought my 870 Express with the 18.5" barrel and magazine extension, so it came with the older style barrel (the one I'm offering). The Mossberg 870 barrels use the old system and should thus be compatible with your Wingmaster. But it might be a good idea to call or email Havlin Sales if you want to be sure. They were very helpful about answering my questions.

John
 
go with a 870 (IMHO). Been around since the '50's, and only improved. I would try for a police turn-in, they tend to be cheaper. If not, any 870 is a good one. Scattertech (Now Wilson Combat) used to have a deal to refurbish a "worn out" 870 in any configuration you wanted. Check into that.
Don't know if I would want the M-4 stock at all, unless you are of smaller stature, or you are planning that your wife or kids (of smaller stature) might be grabbing this HD shotgun. In that case, the ability to "Custom fit" the weapon to different persons might be valued. I would stick to the standard stock, shortened to you, or if you have to have a "black stock" get a Speedfeed - it offers four more rounds on the go.
But as to the items I would suggest
1/ Sidesaddle ; puts six more rounds at your hand with no appreciable gain in weight or awkwarness. Lets you store the weapon safely and have shells available when you grab it.
2/ Sights, Ghost rings with trijicon, if you can find them. I will get to the why in a minute.
3/ Some sort of light system/ I like the surefire forearm mounts, but some make an argument against them. I will say they work for me.
4/ High visibility shell follower/ Lets you look "at a glance" to see if it is loaded, and at less than $10, it is too cheap not to have the insurance.
5/ Sling/ Think of it as a holster for your shotgun. Too much stuff is happening in a HD situation not to have some manner to "holster" your weapon to free your hands to close a door and lock it, or pick up a lamp that had been knocked over by the wind/the bad guy. And once again, a surplus black nylon M-16 sling goes for $2-$4 bucks, some QD sling swivels are $10 at Wal-Mart. IF you don't like it and decide I am full of sh..stuff, QD off the sling, cuss me out and never worry about it again.
Now, as for why I think you need sights and a light, after the (God prevent) situation when you have to use your HD shotgun, expect the bad guy or some anti-gunners to come after you, legally. They are going to look at your hideous "Assault gun" and discect it for anything they can to use against you. that is why I would stick to the wood stock - it's not (shudder) black. But if you have to switch, have a reason you can explain on the stand in court. (I am six foot seven, my wife five, foot two, I needed the adjustable capabilities of the M-4 stock so we could both use it effectively.
The sights are there because you are going to practice with it, and you are practicing to accurately hit a bad guy willing to do you harm. You didn't point and spray lead, as they will try to say you did.
The light is there for target identiciation. That way, when the opposing lawyer says "How could you tell he had a knife." You will honestly state "I used the flashlight mounted on my home defense gun to illuminate him and clearly saw it."
Just my thoughts. Luck
 
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