Help me with Fulton M-14/M21

[TexasRifleman]

Help me with Fulton M-14/M21 - Updated

I ordered an M14 from Fulton a while back. I ordered the bush barrel version simply because that configuration is one I want for my collection.
** See my last post for an interesting update.



Fulton is telling me they don't have any receivers marked M14, but they have some marked "M21". No M14s for close to a year... ugh.

What was an M21? They (Fulton) usually charge more for the M21 marking, so I might be interested in it as some interesting collector clone of a rare rifle, I just don't know what the M21 was.

I'm trying to build a rifle that at least looks like a service rifle to some extent.

I don't know if there was such a thing as a bush barrel M21, whatever an M21 was

Anyone know what that designation was?

Many thanks!!!

 

[Gewehr98]

The M21 was the official military designation...

For the accurized and scoped sniper version of the M14.

BTW, Fulton's receivers are actually made by Armscorp of Baltimore, MD. Armscorp offers M14NM and M21 receivers, non-lugged, rear-lugged, or dual-lugged.

If Fulton doesn't have any, maybe Armscorp does, otherwise Fulton's out of stock because Armscorp is.

 

[Lebben-B]

The M21 was the standard US Army sniper rifle from the late '60's all the way up until the introduction of the M24 SWS in the late 80's. It was essentially an M14 National Match mated to a ART I-III 3-9x variable magnification scope. The M21 wasn't a bad rifle. Spare parts were somewhat hard to come by when I carried one in the early '80's because the logistics system was fully oriented to the M16.

Mike

 

[SnakeEater]

LRB marks their recievers M14SA. They also happen to be the best reciever on the market today.

 

[TexasRifleman]

LRB marks their recievers M14SA. They also happen to be the best reciever on the market today.

Yes, I started with them. They are also out of stock and a one year plus wait time......

So I don't guess there was ever a bush barrel M21, so I think I'll cancel the order with Fulton for that.



And as for Armscorp, Fulton said their manufacturer was out, I just didn't know who that was.

Wonder who is buying all the things, I never see any for sale anywhere.

 

[Gewehr98]

No, there were no shorty M21 rifles issued.

Maybe a field-expedient variant by some enterprising armorer, but that kind of takes away the main purpose of the M21 as a long range sniper rifle.

That doesn't mean you can't order a "Bush" rifle from Fulton with an M21 receiver, it's just something made as a commercial "what-if", kind of like all the "Tanker" Garands one sees for sale out there, even though they were never issued by the military, just prototyped.

As for the LRB receiver being the best, I'd have to ask on what basis. Dimensionally? Or is it based on the fact it's forged, vs. cast, which many consider the major selling point. But truthfully, just how many cast M1A/M14NM/M21/M14SA/M14S receivers have actually failed over the last, say, 40+ years, since Mr. Elmer Ballance of the L.H. Gun Co. in Devine, Texas began producing the M1A ™ in 1971? Yup, about that many.

A lot of good it does being the best receiver when you can't even ship them.

I built my M14NM High Power competition rifle on an Armscorp receiver and H&R M14 parts gun back in 1992. I chose Armscorp because I had seen a couple Springfield Inc. receivers that were usable only as paperweights. Since I wasn't going to do the NFA thing and get a full-auto M14, the Armscorp was the closest to mil-spec, and the Krieger barrel fit and timed like a Swiss watch. I have absolutely no regrets going with the Armscorp, and if Fulton saw fit to use their cast receivers, more power to them.

 

[SnakeEater]

As for the LRB receiver being the best, I'd have to ask on what basis

Yep, dimensionally is one reason, along with proper color and finish. Forged vs. cast is important to some people. Although you are correct that reciever failures are uncommon, there is no way around the fact that a forged reciever will outlast a cast one. I may be talking generations into the future, but most would agree with that.

 

[TexasRifleman]

I may be talking generations into the future, but most would agree with that.

Well as Gewehr98 says, you can't buy either one, even with cash burning your hot little hands so the point is moot.

I have no problem with the cast vs forged thing, I just want a rifle

Gewehr98, thanks for the info.

I might reconsider and get the M21 with standard barrel length. I'm really wanting something in this platform, and it's either build an M21 marked receiver with a short barrel, or make it correct and go with the standard 22 inch barrel. I'm inclined to do the latter. I do want something that looks at least genuine.

Would an M21 have had a bayonet lug do you know?

Would an M21 have had the happy switch or been semi only? (Fulton offers a dummy selector and cutout stock for an authentic look)

Many thanks for the info!!

 

[wacki]

Armscorp offers M14NM and M21 receivers, non-lugged, rear-lugged, or dual-lugged.

What does all this lug stuff mean?

 

[Geno]

"What is a Lug?"

The "Lug" is the bottom portion of the receiver that protrudes out. It is bedded to the stock, to thus makes for a stable receiver/stock connection. The connection is usually bedded with resin.

Rear-lugged receivers appear to be offering the best consist accuracy.

Doc2005

 

[AZ Jeff]

Real M21's came with bayonet lugs on the flash suppressor, as they were based on the standard M14NM rifle.

Likewise, an M21 would have had all the selector parts in place, but would have been missing the selector knob, and would have had the selector lock installed in it's place. This is exactly the way most M14's were configured for general issue.

M21's did NOT come with the rear lug on the receiver. This modification was done on NM rifles much later.

 

[TexasRifleman]

Many thanks to all of you for the historical information.

So since it appears m21's were built up as accurized rifles from inventory, would they have even been marked as M21 in any way?

These receivers are stamped "US Rifle M21" as opposed to M14.

That doesn't make sense to me if M21's were built from existing receivers.

I'm trying to buy not just a rifle that is accurate at the range, but accurate historically as well.

Thanks for your help.

 

[AZ Jeff]

Since the creation of an M21 started with rebuilding an M14 to NM standards, I don't think that M21's got marked as such (it's pretty hard to restamp the receiver for an M1 or an M14.)

Maybe someone with more knowledge than I can confirm this.

 

[Eat Beef]

Yes, they were stamped M14, not M21.

Another venue for a reciever stamped M14 would be a (GASP) chicom Polytech. Just make sure it's heel marked, as most were stamped on the side.

I hear LRB is catching up, some guys are only waiting a few months now. HTH.

 

[obm]

might want to check with west texas armory to see if they have some receivers in stock. they build on armscorp receivers.

http://www.westtexasarmory.com/index.html

 

[wacki]

NM standards

????

apparently I'm a rifle n00b

 

[Lebben-B]

National Match standards means more care and time goes into the building of the rifle. The tolerances of each individual part is much finer than on a similiar "rack grade" rifle. Usually special attention is paid to the constrction of the barrel, using fresh cutters to make the rifiling. The chamber is toleranced tighter than on a normal rifle and is usually polished. The trigger is lighter and all parts are usually of higher quality and hand fitted/polished to ensure the tightest lock up possible. The result is a rifle with great intrinsic accuracy and is meant to fire high quality match grade ammo.

Mike

 

[TexasRifleman]

Well, after all that, I was just not happy with what I was being offered so I told Fulton to cancel my order.

Lo and Behold all of a sudden they find they DO have an M14 marked receiver in stock.

Turns out they had an already built rifle from a trade show and it was close to what I had ordered. They were trying to unload that on me with it's odd markings.

I'm not too happy about that attempt to trick me, and I let them know that. They say Clint will be calling me personally when my rifle is ready, I said I wanted to talk to him about this. We'll see.

They have a good reputation for rifle building and customer service, so I'm not sure if this is business as usual or I got an aggressive sales person trying to make Employee of the Month.

I did go ahead and let them build me what I ordered on the magically appearing M14 marked receiver, but just a word of caution if anyone is thinking about doing business with them. Don't take less than exactly what you ask for.

Money talks.

Thanks to everyone for the information and help.