Help Needed in Taking the AR-15 Plunge

[1stmarine]

Are you looking for a good all around carbine or for extreme accuracy?

Consider this:
A) More times than not a heavy barrel is more accurate than a light one. ...but it is heavier although it can be fluted. If fluted also it cools faster. A mid length is going to have more meat but yet again a tad more weight but also accuracy potential.

B) A non-chromed barrel is more accurate than a chromed one. ...but it doesn't have the same life. Some SS barrels resolve this. barrel cost/round is minute compared to everything else so this should not be a huge concern.
LW-50 barrels are extremely durable but more expensive.

C) All things being equal a shorter barrel is a more accurate one. Do not need to worry because 16" can be as good as it gets. Speed with most loads should be acceptable.

Most ARs are very accurate but when one is tired to spray targets then they are looking for those SUBMOA groups.
Whether you choose one system or another is up to you but I thought the above points might be helpful. This doesn't mean a light barrel from a specific model cannot be accurate I am just saying based on first hand experience whit all sort of barrels and ARs big, and small, thin and fat.
Cheers,
E.

 

[Slimbo]

I think some people take this whole mil spec thing a little far. how many manufacturers barrels have you seen fail from typical semi-auto fire? i love my colts but man, look at the number of quality AR parts manufacturers.

 

[1stmarine]

I agree on barrels even if not tested are hardly a source of failure.
Most likely will be a poorly put together BCG or not correctly gassed system.
The BCG is the one single component that needs more attention but obviously if a system has a trigger group that doesn't work then this needs to be addressed first.
I see a lot of folks paying premium for the brand names and the billets with some sort of skull logo. And it is ok to pay extra for that just make sure you are not getting any other value than looks over many other brands.
In the end many of the parts might be coming from the same mill. Colt, RRA, Delton, Bushy, etc..

What makes a good AR are a good set of internals and a decent barrel, not the brand.

 

[JustinJ]

DD, Like FN, exceeds Mil Spec and cold hammer forges their bbls.

In what way do they exceed it? They do have button cut barrels also. In reality though DD does not make barrels. They are made for them by Palmetto State Armory.

The steel is certified Mil-B-11595E, same as Colt.

Can you reference that? The only sources i've been able to find say 4150 but not all 4150 is Mil-B-11595E. There are a number of sources also saying only Colt and FN currently offer true milspec barrels.

Daniel Defense isn't milspec, but they are a heck lot better than it!

How so?

I think some people take this whole mil spec thing a little far. how many manufacturers barrels have you seen fail from typical semi-auto fire? i love my colts but man, look at the number of quality AR parts manufacturers.

I personally just want the best bang for my buck. If i can get milspec for the same price as non why wouldn't i want it? I'm not nocking DD but find their prices to generally be inflated. Colt's used to be also but at today's prices they are the easy choice IMO.

 

[Ranger30-06]

Daniel Defense isn't milspec, but they are a heck lot better than it!

How so?

Have you looked at what they did to their guns? It is literally double what the military put through the M4A1. They ran over it like six times, buried it in sand and dirt and water, threw the thing out of a helicopter (at as I recall 100 feet in the air,) and shot it with a shotgun. There's no doubt in my mind that with the proper BCG and fire control group, you would have an extremely better version of an M4A1.

Here's the video: DD Torture Test

As a last note, I really don't know to much about barrels, however you can't assume that they all have button cut barrels even though a few of their rifles may feature them.

 

[JustinJ]

Have you looked at what they did to their guns? It is literally double what the military put through the M4A1. They ran over it like six times, buried it in sand and dirt and water, threw the thing out of a helicopter (at as I recall 100 feet in the air,) and shot it with a shotgun. There's no doubt in my mind that with the proper BCG and fire control group, you would have an extremely better version of an M4A1.

What you do to a gun has nothing to do with how it's made. Did Colt or FN fail the same test? Most materials and dimensions of a Daniel Defense are the same as Colt and some other ARs so i'm not sure what you think it is that makes DD special.

As a last note, I really don't know to much about barrels, however you can't assume that they all have button cut barrels even though a few of their rifles may feature them.

I wasn't saying all their barrels are button cut. I was saying that they have button cut barrels also. As in addition to forged.

 

[Ranger30-06]

What you do to a gun has nothing to do with how it's made. Did Colt or FN fail the same test? Most materials and dimensions of a Daniel Defense are the same as Colt and some other ARs so i'm not sure what you think it is that makes DD special.

Not necessarily, however the fact that they went out of their way to beat the snot out of their gun the way they did makes a huge impression on me. Just because materials and dimensions are the same doesn't mean the fit, quality, and building techniques are there.

If you had a Ferrari and a Yugo that both had the same materials and dimensions but not the same building techniques and quality, would you still go for the Yugo?

 

[TonyAngel]

Haven't heard from the OP on what his decision was. I wonder what he decided to get.

I like Daniel Defense products a lot. I know that many companies that sell ARs have their parts made by others. That is true in many industries. What sets DD apart from others is their quality control. From what I've seen, I'd be willing to be that a manufacturer that is making parts for DD is held to tighter tolerances than when they are making parts for someone else.

Just as an example, upper receivers. I had, at one time, taken three upper receivers from one particular company and test fitted the same barrel to all three. The extension to receiver fit among the three varied. One tight and the other two bordering on loose. Maybe this was an indication that the tight one was cut on a machine that had just recently been retooled or maintenanced and the loose ones on a machine that was just about to be in need of retooling, but made it through QC because it was still within the specs for the company that the part was being made for.

I also tried this at another time with three DD receivers that I had on hand and the extension to receiver fit was nice and tight. I know that these are relatively small samples to be testing, but it's the best that I can do. Like everyone, I base my opinions on my personal experiences, however limited they may be, because that is the best that I can do.

Now, when I build an upper, I use DD receivers.

 

[lebowski]

I can't buy a Colt and add an equivalent rail for significantly less than I can buy a DD. One of my local dealers sells the DDM4V1 for under $1200. Also, what about a DDM4 isn't Mil Spec, that is Mil Spec on a Colt?

Ohh, and if the DDM4V7 was out when I bought my V1, I would've bought the V7 instead. Here's a link to a dealer who has the V7 for just over $1100, and will ship it - http://clydearmory.com/daniel-defense-ddm4v7.html

If only that was a LW barrel I'd jump on that right now. The new V7 is the way to go, IMO

I agree that if you want the rail, the Magpul stock etc the DD is the way to go and the all-in price is tough to beat. I love my V1, I've taken 2 carbine classes with it and look forward to many more. I will also tell you that their customer service is second to none.

And no worries here about the barrels - DD CHF have an excellent reputation.

 

[JustinJ]

Just because materials and dimensions are the same doesn't mean the fit, quality, and building techniques are there.

It actually does. Proper building techniques are required to get said dimensions.

Again, i'm not saying DD are not high quality but i do think they are overpriced as are their rails. Not to mention there are numerous torture tests out there for a variety of other ARs. But I personally put no stock in these torture "tests" unless done to a sufficient sample size. Not to mention that they offer no means of comparison unless done against other manufacturer's rifles. And unless done by an independent third party results must are suspect. For all we know five rifles failed the same test before one actually passed to be posted on the internet. With Colt i know exactly what i am getting as they are actually being held to a standard by a third party...the US military.

 

[Tirod]

Parts dimensions and building techniques are two entirely separate things. All the parts can be 100% milspec, and the rear sight cranked all the way over with more needed to shoot the darn thing to point of aim. Milspec leaves that up to the maker by stating a 2MOA accuracy is needed. I've yet to read milspec that the first shots out of a machine rest with the sights centered will impact the point of aim. The makers finesse the parts to help that happen more often than not. How many reports have we read where the sights are visibly twisted on the barrel? Build has EVERYTHING to do with it. Milspec parts, or not.

Me, I went midlength gas, rifle handguards, and I doubt it's even 50% milspec. The nitrided barrel, bolt, and carrier, plus the A1 fixed stock, and TD grip aren't milspec. But as far as I'm concerned, they're BETTER than some words imposed in a government contract document that the law says have to be there to protect the Army and taxpayer from cheaters.

Milspec is 2MOA lowest bid. A recent milspec Colt bid was reputedly in the $600 each range, I wouldn't get too worked up over fanboys in a locker room comparison over it.

As far as milspec goes, in Europe, their spec says hammerforged nitrided, and has been since the 1970's. What Colt negotiated with a bureaucracy in the halls of the Pentagon is by no means an empirical standard of which is better. Lets not forget, halogen headlights were banned in the US until the DOT Headlight Advisory Board approved them. Just in time for the Board members Sylvania, Wagner, and Phillips to get the production machines on line.

ALL American made handguns, and most production rifles by Remington and Ruger use hammerforged barrels. Why are the AR fanboys so far behind in technology? Likely, the next adoption of combat rifles will be hammerforged. In mass production, they are cheaper, and can be more accurate with less break in, as already known by their performance in Europe.

Sounds like Harley owners not knowing that Porsche does most of the engineering on contract. The milspec fanboys need to look to the real technology of what goes on. Rotary dial and carburetors aren't standard under the hood now, either.

 

[JustinJ]

Parts dimensions and building techniques are two entirely separate things.

Of course they are different things but they are directly connected.

All the parts can be 100% milspec, and the rear sight cranked all the way over with more needed to shoot the darn thing to point of aim.

Um, no, thats just not true:
3.4.6 Targeting and Accuracy: The normal rear sight peep (sight rotated fully rearward) shall be used with the rear sight set centrally in the slot for windage within plus or minus five (5) clicks.
Milspec is about dimensions as well as materials.

Me, I went midlength gas, rifle handguards, and I doubt it's even 50% milspec. The nitrided barrel, bolt, and carrier, plus the A1 fixed stock, and TD grip aren't milspec. But as far as I'm concerned, they're BETTER than some words imposed in a government contract document that the law says have to be there to protect the Army and taxpayer from cheaters.

Did somebody there is nothing better than milspec? There are potentially better materials than milspec but not at the current colt price point, imo. And many of the supposedly new and improved features turn out to be any thing but. So seeking milspec allows one to avoid cut corners and lower quality materials.

, I wouldn't get too worked up over fanboys in a locker room comparison over it.

So preffering one thing over another makes one a fanboy of it? So you're a fan boy of nitrided barrels? "Fanboy" is now just a lame label used to try and patronize people when they have a different opinion.

 

[PR-NJ]

Thanks for all the great comments, guys. A lot of good points.

 

[lebowski]

If only that was a LW barrel I'd jump on that right now. The new V7 is the way to go, IMO

I agree that if you want the rail, the Magpul stock etc the DD is the way to go and the all-in price is tough to beat. I love my V1, I've taken 2 carbine classes with it and look forward to many more. I will also tell you that their customer service is second to none.

And no worries here about the barrels - DD CHF have an excellent reputation.

Edit: Turns out they do have it in LW, and I ordered one earlier today to supplement my V1.

http://clydearmory.com/daniel-defense-ddm4v7-lw.html


To the OP - the V7 LW I linked is what I'd recommend you get. I like my V1 and it's been a great carbine, but IMO for a 16" barrel there's no reason not to go with a middy gas system, and IMO the gov't profile barrel gives you nothing in return for the added weight vs. the LW barrel.

 

[1stmarine]

As ranked by Rob Sloyer in the Combat Tactics magazine (Sep.2010 issue)

Based on nr. of inspection points from manufacturer sheets:
1-COLT 6920
2-Noveske N4
3-LMT
4-Charles Daly D
5-S&W M&P15
6-Sabre (I think defunct now)
7-Armalite M15A4C
8-CMMG M4
9-STAG Model1
10-Bushmaster 16M4 (Similar to DPMS)
11-RRA AR1251X
12-Olympic K3B-M4-A3
13-DPMS AP4

They provide a matrix with the manufacturer inspection points in detail. I think this gives you a good idea of the many times simple but often overlooked facts behind this "mil-spec saturday night fever". Any how the comparative is nice but still a little immature comparative, to say the least, to leave systems like Daniel Defense, Delton, SI-Defense, Spikes, etc.. out of the chart.

If the system suits one needs and one doesn't want to take over building one The Daniel Defense are fine systems as many others are too.

The best AR the money can put together is probably not a one single specific brand and model but the type of inners and shell that one needs to fulfill a specific task or set of tasks. And one must like it, and feel comfortable with too, this is very important.

In the same article they describe quite nicely the one single component of an impingement system system that should be the first and main reason for concern, a good quality BCG. Everyone that really knows ARs knows that. I would add a properly gassed AR is a must too and some manufactures fail on that fundamental part.

Cheers.
E.

 

[kwelz]

Rob has updated the chart to a completely new system. The really interesting part to me isn't what the specs show but which manufacturers completely refused to participate.

 

[1stmarine]

I agree. Some you learn the right way and some by try and fail.
I hope some manufactures were more cooperative and honest. Overall is not that bad though. Firearms overall (with few exceptions) is one of the most honest hard working industries. We also thank the government and the ATF with the AWS foreign bans to keep the jobs at home! LOL!!
Soon only weapons, lawyers and restless leg syndrome medication will be the only left Made in USA products.
Regarding the need to understand what is inside your upper.. just this weekend I was debugging a carbine from one of the boys at the local leagues. I think it was a sales one or model one or some name like that they sold him overgassed.
I think Rob's article is a nice quick read for those in the search for a little bit of extra wisdom.

 

[lebowski]

DD and I believe Spikes are both in the chart. You're referencing an old version of the chart.

 

[mokin]

I've seen Daniel Defense rifles a the range and I have DD parts on my rifle. I think they make good stuff and have not been disapointed. Welcome to the dark side.

 

[boricua9mm]

In reality though DD does not make barrels. They are made for them by Palmetto State Armory.

Palmetto State making barrels for Daniel Defense? Is it April 1st already?

For the record, Daniel Defense makes their own Cold Hammer Forged barrels at their facility in Battle Creek, GA, and they have been making them for some time now.

Palmetto State? Who makes up this stuff?

 

[JustinJ]

For the record, Daniel Defense makes their own Cold Hammer Forged barrels at their facility in Battle Creek, GA, and they have been making them for some time now.

I believe you're right. The confusion i came from the following product list on Palmetto's web page: http://palmettostatearmory.com/1102.php

The word "our" sounds like Palmetto is making them but the statement must be a quote from DD since Palmetto is in SC.

 

[ugaarguy]

Just for the record DD is in Black Creek, GA - not Battle Creek. It's right outside of Savannah.

 

[boricua9mm]

Just for the record DD is in Black Creek, GA - not Battle Creek. It's right outside of Savannah.

...the Palmetto State....

 

[kwelz]

Nevermind. Already addressed. But come on people. Think before you type.
I swear the amount of misinformation going around on this site has started to border on criminal lately.

Also it seems like PSA has some issues going on. Namely the inability to function check a gun. They have had some Middy guns go out with carbine length gas tubes. While there have only been a few it makes me wonder how closely they are actually checking things.

 

[PR-NJ]

Narrowed it down to mid length...

Now I'm torn between the V5 and the V7...