Help! The transfer dealer wont give me my gun!!

[blaisenguns]

many times a customer has called to warn me of his late arrival. I lock the door and read a magazine until he arrives.

I would greatly appreciate dealing with a dealer like this, but there are only a few in my area, and this is the second one that I have done business with. Around here it is slim pickens to find a decent transfer dealer.

 

[Bubbles]

People in Florida who have a concealed weapons permit are exempt from the three day waiting period on handgun purchases. If you don't want to wait, get a permit.

 

[snubbies]

Not Reasonable Unless???

There is no reason the FFL should hold up the transfer unless as earlier stated something happened to the gun after it arrived. In all the transfers I do I am anxious to get the gun off the premises. There is something missing but that is not our business. He will get his gun and be on his way. The original question has been answered.

 

[oldbanjo]

It's not worth having a Stroke over a few days.

 

[dogtown tom]

blaisenguns

dogtown tom:...although you may own the firearm, the dealer is in lawful possession under Federal law. And again, there is no Federal law OR Florida law that requires a dealer to hand over a gun after X days. You didn't mention completing a Form 4473 and passing a NICS check- both of which must be done before you can take possession.

Understood, they dont have to do the transfer, but since they do not own it if they refuse the transfer (assuming that I am legally allowed to own the Item) then what happens?

After a reasonable number of days call your local ATF office and ask for an Industry Operations Investigator. He will be glad to assist you.

By "reasonable" I mean more than the next day. If in two weeks you have not received the gun, call ATF.

All of the above is predicaed on you completing a 4473 and passing the NICS check. Until you do both of those you cannot receive the firearm.

Have you done either for this transaction?

 

[woodsoup]

Maybe the clerk doesn't have the authority to process the gun, do the transfer. The dealer might have had every intention in the world of being there to make the transfer, but was delayed etc. The clerk, if not allowed to do transfers, was doing the best he could.

 

[md2lgyk]

Years ago (pre-NICS) I lived in MD, where there's a 7-day waiting period. IIRC, that was BUSINESS days, not calendar days. If the background check did not come back within that time, the dealer could legally give you the gun anyway. But I knew several gun shop owners and none would take that chance.

 

[MinnMooney]

post #10 :

There is a huge difference between "inconvenient" and "illegal".

From your story, I'm not sure which category this falls into...but I have my suspicions.

If it is the latter, post evidence, and pursue it legally.

If it is the former, learn to live in the real world.

I agree. This was - pure and simple - a choice made by the dealer. I think his choice stinks............ unless there's something that you're not telling us.

Live with the dealer's decision and never use his services again.

 

[brboyer]

One thing I can clear up. The receiving FFL dealer IS the seller as far as the law is concerned. How the gun got to him is irrelevant; he is the one who logs it into his book, does the federal paperwork, does the NICS check, and complies with any waiting period laws.

I don't know the whole story, but the only real recourse is to wait until the dealer can deliver the gun. The customer can't demand the dealer set his business hours for one customer's convenience. Of course, Blaisenguns can rant and rave and take his future business elsewhere; I doubt the dealer will mourn the loss.

Jim

You are mistaken.

 

[wyocarp]

What could shed more light on this for you folks? I didnt fail the NICS check, becouse he refused to do it.

What? Are you telling us that you might not even get the gun when you go back because of a NICS delay?

I'm sorry blaisenguns, I didn't really mean to insult you earlier. But I'm considering more than what you are telling us.

I'm going to assume that the person you are dealing with sells guns to make a living. If so, he doesn't want to do anything wrong that will cause him to lose his source of income so I'm having a hard time thinking he is doing this just to make you mad.

Second, your threat of pursuing a charge of theft is uderly ridiculous over making you wait another day. That alone gives me some insight into what you are like.

Third, I like to get transfers out of my store as quick as possible and can't imagine a gun store wanting to keep transfer guns any longer than they have to. The only exception is that I do like to have enough time to record the gun and it's information before the customer comes in to get the firearm.

And fourth, we can't really help you at all in this matter. The only person you need to be talking with is the dealer and finding out from them what is happening.

 

[dogtown tom]

brboyer

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jim Keenan
One thing I can clear up. The receiving FFL dealer IS the seller as far as the law is concerned. How the gun got to him is irrelevant; he is the one who logs it into his book, does the federal paperwork, does the NICS check, and complies with any waiting period laws.

I don't know the whole story, but the only real recourse is to wait until the dealer can deliver the gun. The customer can't demand the dealer set his business hours for one customer's convenience. Of course, Blaisenguns can rant and rave and take his future business elsewhere; I doubt the dealer will mourn the loss.

Jim

You are mistaken.

No, he's not.
For the purposes of a transfer the licensee is considered "the seller" or transferor and the customer is considered "the buyer" or transferee.

Spend five minutes reading on the ATF website and you'll see that ATF uses the terms "seller", "dealer", "licensee" and "transferor" interchangeably.

For example:

Q: Who signs ATF Form 4473 for the seller?ATF Form 4473 must be signed by the person who verified the identity of the buyer.

 

[brboyer]

No, he's not.
For the purposes of a transfer the licensee is considered "the seller" or transferor and the customer is considered "the buyer" or transferee.

Spend five minutes reading on the ATF website and you'll see that ATF uses the terms "seller", "dealer", "licensee" and "transferor" interchangeably.

For example:

Why would I waste my time reading the ATF website? I prefer to read the actual laws and not someone's interpretation of such.

The Florida waiting period has nothing, at all, to do with Federal law or ATF regulations. It is a state law.

 

[snubbies]

ATF Interpretation

When you read the actual code you are interpreting the law. ATF has interpreted the code as to how they will apply it to all situations. I prefer to trust their interpretation. If you are not a Lawyer experienced in application of ATF rules and regs you are better off trusting them rather than yourself since they are the ones who will drop the hammer.

 

[brboyer]

When you read the actual code you are interpreting the law. ATF has interpreted the code as to how they will apply it to all situations. I prefer to trust their interpretation. If you are not a Lawyer experienced in application of ATF rules and regs you are better off trusting them rather than yourself since they are the ones who will drop the hammer.

ATF rules and Federal law are inapplicable in this situation (Florida waiting periods).

 

[snubbies]

Misunderstood

My comments immediately above were only in regard to your statement about not trusting ATF interpretation. The Florida waiting period comments you made go without saying. I agree with your disclaimer, "Do not rely on my, or anyone Else's, opinions to keep you out of legal trouble."

 

[brboyer]

My comments immediately above were only in regard to your statement about not trusting ATF interpretation. The Florida waiting period comments you made go without saying. I agree with your disclaimer, "Do not rely on my, or anyone Else's, opinions to keep you out of legal trouble."

Absolutely, do not trust anyone's interpretation of the law except the lawyer you are paying.

 

[Lee Roder]

One thing I can clear up. The receiving FFL dealer IS the seller as far as the law is concerned.

How does the receiving FFL know how much to charge for sales tax?

 

[brboyer]

One thing I can clear up. The receiving FFL dealer IS the seller as far as the law is concerned.

How does the receiving FFL know how much to charge for sales tax?

Well, in Florida he is not the seller, so no sales tax.

 

[9mmepiphany]

How does the receiving FFL know how much to charge for sales tax?

A common practice, when there is no receipt available, is fair market value

 

[dogtown tom]

brboyer:...Why would I waste my time reading the ATF website? I prefer to read the actual laws and not someone's interpretation of such...

While you may consider it a waste of time, it would improve your knowledge of Federal firearms law. Those "actual laws" are right there....without any interpretation at all from ATF...knck yourself out.

brboyer:...The Florida waiting period has nothing, at all, to do with Federal law or ATF regulations. It is a state law.

Doesn't matter. A Florida buyer must still comply with Federal law which requires the buyer to complete a 4473 & NICS check. As the OP seems to have not done either he doesn't get his gun until he passes both. He could wait six months after his Florida wait period is over and he still won't get that gun- until he does the 4473 & NICS.

 

[stchman]

When you filled out the 4473 did you get a Proceed or a Delay?

If you got a Proceed then yes the local dealer should give you your firearm.

If you got a Delay then the FFL is REQUIRED to wait until the NICS folks call them back with a disposition of Proceed/Delay/Deny. If after THREE business days the FFL does not hear back from the NICS folks he can then release the firearm to you. The FFL also doe have hte right to NOT release the firearm to you until he hears back from the NICS folks.

Thank the Brady Foundation.

 

[brboyer]

brboyer:...Why would I waste my time reading the ATF website? I prefer to read the actual laws and not someone's interpretation of such...

While you may consider it a waste of time, it would improve your knowledge of Federal firearms law. Those "actual laws" are right there....without any interpretation at all from ATF...knck yourself out.

brboyer:...The Florida waiting period has nothing, at all, to do with Federal law or ATF regulations. It is a state law.

Doesn't matter. A Florida buyer must still comply with Federal law which requires the buyer to complete a 4473 & NICS check. As the OP seems to have not done either he doesn't get his gun until he passes both. He could wait six months after his Florida wait period is over and he still won't get that gun- until he does the 4473 & NICS.

While you may consider it a waste of time, it would improve your knowledge of Federal firearms law. Those "actual laws" are right there....without any interpretation at all from ATF...knck yourself out.

I am well versed in Federal and Florida firearms laws and have no need for anyone to interpret them for me. Also I don't trust ATF to correctly publish the actual laws let alone interpret them, I prefer to go to the source.

My point is about the Florida waiting period is that it is based on purchase date/time. In fact it does not apply at all to Internet purchases, as the transferring FFL has no idea when the pistol was purchased. He can legally transfer it immediately upon completion of the 4473 & NICS check.

Now of course the FFL can have whatever policies he wants as long as those policies do not violate (or are not less restrictive of) Federal or State law.

 

[dogtown tom]

brboyer:...I am well versed in Federal and Florida firearms laws and have no need for anyone to interpret them for me.

Really? You told Jim Keenan he was wrong....when he was actually spot on.

Also I don't trust ATF to correctly publish the actual laws let alone interpret them, I prefer to go to the source.

And what source would that be? ATF's website link for the Code of Federal Regulations goes straight to the Government Printing Office..................or does it?

 

[brboyer]

Really? You told Jim Keenan he was wrong....when he was actually spot on.


And what source would that be? ATF's website link for the Code of Federal Regulations goes straight to the Government Printing Office..................or does it?

You told Jim Keenan he was wrong....when he was actually spot on.

Uh, no as far as the Florida waiting period, he is mistaken.

And what source would that be? ATF's website link for the Code of Federal Regulations goes straight to the Government Printing Office..................or does it?:

Wouldn't know.

Not sure why anyone would go to the ATF site to look up US Code or a CFR?

 

[Erik M]

maybe they wanted to hold the gun overnight so they could 'test fire' it for you.