Help w/ 454 Casul Accuracy & Ammo

[Huntolive]

Welcome to Summer!
I have been practicing alot with my 357's getting ready for deer/hog hunting and my accuracy w/ iron sights has dramatically improved (300 rounds later), and picked my SRH 454 casul back up the other day after a year of benign neglect and fired off some 260 grn over 1800 fps Magtech and was unpleasantly surprized that it suddenly felt like I was firing a shoulder fired rocket.
When I fired self-preservationally (read w/ bad habits/gunshy) obviously accuracy was no better than I was w/ irons on the 357's even though I have an Ultradot on the 454 SRH. Yet when I man-upd and aimed correctly with relaxed trigger squeeze and what had been my normal shooting form (at least with the 357's) the muzzle jump and recoil really seemed too-close-for- comfort from the barrel seeming like it was dangerously close to smacking me in the face, and felt powder blast in the face (but my rounds hit pretty accurately; that is the few that I opted to shoot). I was shooting standing leaning resting on a 4' high table. I am being honest here and not trying to look all manly or pretend the Casul is a 22.

In the past, I do not recall the recoil bothering me much. Maybe I need a firmer grip with attention to holding the gun down? Perhaps switching last year to shooting the 357's made me forget how I managed the 454?
What advice for getting comfortable again w/ the 454,and improving accuracy?

I plan to start back w/ 45 Cowboy perhaps and build up.
Also, why in the world do so many manufacturers load 454 up to such high FPS? It seems a 260-360 grain bullet at 1200-1400 FPS would do the job on deer, hogs and even bear just fine. Guess this is another reasons to dive into re-loading. Meanwhile I have gotten some 45LC +P and some 260 grain 454 Fusion deer ammo at 1350 FPS. I know about the infamous "crud ring" that forms from using 45LC, but is this really a big deal, I mean, I cleaned my gun thorougly in 30 minutes today, so do you suggest staying with 454 ammo or going w/ 45LC hot/+P? At this point I have enough retail ammo that I will have plenty of brass for eaither if/when I reload, but think 45 LC is easier/cheaper to reload. Any REAL advantages of 454 over 45LC +P?

Suggestions on developing accuracy and comfort w/ 454 at these and full-house loads? How does one shoot full house 454 accurately w/o feeling like they are endangering themself? I realize i am exposing myself to ridicule here as I am being realistic about the power of these loads, so please spare me the obvious jabs; I am Keeping the gun! I have a wide variety of ammo & am ready to practice.
PS, I tried hard to post pics, as I just put on a new Hogue Tamer grip, but it kept saying my file was too big, how do i get it down to 244.7kb?

 

[Zaydok Allen]

The crud ring isn't a big deal as long as you don't shoot a whole bunch of Colts before Casulls. Make sure to scrub the chambers out real good and you'll be fine.

Factory 454 is not always super hot. Winchester Super X is loaded cooler than a lot of hot colt loads. The real benefit is you can get a lot more velocity out of the Casull which increases your effective range and flattens your trajectory. It won't kill anything deader than a hot colt. I think there is benefit to the velocity when dealing with dangerous critters as your chance of deflection is lessened. Though you can accomplish the same with a slower but heavier bullet.

If you're planning to reload, play with loads to see what you and your gun like. If you want to shoot colt loads, you can download your Casull brass to lower levels.

I shoot a 460 in a Weaver stance with my arms 95% extended but not with locked elbows. Locking your elbows will beat you up too much. Firm up your grip. Keep your wrists tensed up and trigger finger loose. Then squeeze. DON'T lean on anything as it will cause your body and mind to relax too much. Don't try to hold the gun down or you'll start flinching and pulling your shots. Your arms, shoulders, and entire upper body should be absorbing the recoil.

When I shoot my 460V one handed I turn my body 90 degrees to increase the mass in line with the gun.

Bottom line; I think you got too used to shooting small bore and maybe have some technique issues. When you let your body absorb the recoil and not your hands, and allow the muzzle to rise as it should, the barrel shouldn't be anywhere near your face. Firm it up, but don't lock up.

 

[SDGlock23]

I've got several 454's including a SRH Toklat and yes they do recoil but I've never felt I was about to get clocked over the head with the barrel under recoil. Just use a firm grip, you don't have to fight recoil, just use a grip strength similar to a very firm handshake. I've videoed myself shooting the BFR (300gr XTP-MAG @ 1800fps) to see what the recoil looks like and it's never as bad as it may initially seem, there's no way 454 recoil is dangerous unless you're barely holding onto it.

If you fight the recoil by trying to hold it down your accuracy will suffer, just use a firm grip and let recoil happen. I used to have a 7.5" SRH 454 and it was a good shooter, although for deer and hogs loading to max isn't necessary. Winchester makes a GREAT lower recoil option, oddly enough it uses a 250gr Hornady XTP bullet (great bullet but odd it's a Winchester load), but it's loaded to around 1350 fps, which is very effective yet won't cause recoil worries.

http://www.midwayusa.com/product/21...d-hollow-point-box-of-20?cm_vc=ProductFinding

The Federal load you mentioned would be fine too. I wouldn't worry much about the "crud ring" in the 454 as long as you clean your gun after you shoot it.

 

[Zaydok Allen]

Winchester makes a GREAT lower recoil option, oddly enough it uses a 250gr Hornady XTP bullet (great bullet but odd it's a Winchester load), but it's loaded to around 1350 fps, which is very effective yet won't cause recoil worries.

Yep that's the one.

 

[41 Mag]

When I first got mine my friend gave me two boxes of the Winchester stuff, and it is very decent to shoot. It only took those two boxes however to realize I was going to load my own with this one though for sure.

Initially I had some 260gr mag JHP's that I had purchased before I even had the revolver. Mine is the Raging Bull with the 8.375" barrel. There is a lot of mas there, but it will still get in touch with your manhood if you let it. I started out using some pretty stout loads which were in the same ball park as what your talking about in your post above. Those bullets would flatten a feral hog at the 1850'ish fps they were getting.

Then I started to see the light in the bottom of the can and decided to go with cast, and picked up some of the Cast Performance 260gr RFN. These were loaded to the data which I got via email from Cast Performance and were right in the same ball park of the JHP's. The first hog I shot was a sow in the 250'ish pound range which stood up from behind a small hill at about 20yds. The shot hit about 2" below the left eye on the snout, and exited about center of the right ham. To say it put her down was an understatement, she hit the dirt so hard dust flew. After that shot I managed to also put three others down with the remaining 4 shots, and almost could have clubbed one with the muzzle as it came running by after I was empty.

Since then however I found that paying roughly $35 per box, plus shipping was a bit more than I wanted to do. I started casting my own, and well THAT saved me tons of money. (yea right) Still in all I went with the Lee 452-300 RF mold and the Lee push through sizer and lube kit. I use straight air cooled clip on wheel weight and load over AA-9 powder for a nice load that runs in the mid 1500fps range. I have found this to not only be very easily shot, but also very accurate and hits plenty hard out to ranges most have no need to be shooting. I can shoot plenty of them in practice with no ill issues as with the other higher velocity loads. I ran through 80 of those one weekend and suffered through the first part of the week as a result of the recoil and twist of that long barrel. To me it's not the recoil that bothers me, but the counter torque I get from those heavier bullets leaving at the higher velocity.

Anyway if you DO decide to go ahead and get to loading your own, I highly suggest working up to around this range with your loads. The 300gr WFN type bullet will really rock anything your looking to make lay down and they don't have to be driven to Mach 6 to do it either.

THe following is the load I shoot, how it groups at 25yds freehand, and what the impact is at 50yds on a 6 gallon bucket of water,

The recovered bullet,

It completely penetrated two buckets and almost made it into the onside of the third, and we found it laying on the ground. That is plenty of powder for anything I will be finding in the woods I tromp around in.

 

[Huntolive]

Sincere thanks 460Kodiak, SDGlock and 41Mag for your very helpful straighforward advice.
Thanks for not taking the silly approach of telling me to go back to shooting a 22.
I went down to my creek side range before i got your replies and shot some 45LC cowboy to get comfy w/ the SRH again, then some BEAR 45LC +P 325 grn, followed by the Fusion 454 260 grn at 1350 FPS: they were all fine, after I re-acquainted myself, just a little snappy. I then tried some Buffalo Bore 360 grn at 1450 FPS or so that I wanted to love, and discovered I will be happy to sell you guys a box of them! I think I know what you mean by the torque: the recoil all seemed to go into my right hand and twisted my wrist to the right, pretty much numbing my hand. But i was fine, and only shot 2 of those, then returned to the Fusions, which are fine, but they seemed inconsistant on accuracy, but that could (easily) be me. Any way I am doing better, and will put your advice into effect.

I will say this, the good thing is that I am now more accurate with iron sights w/ the full house 357 than with the Ultradot w/ the 454, but that shows how much practice I need w/ the 454. I am ready to hunt at least out to 30 yards w/ the 386 XL Hunter 357 w/ 158 grn JHP at 1200FPS or 180 grn Bear RNFN at about 1350FPS. I aim to get to 50 yards by the fall w/ the 357 and the 454.

When 460 Kodiak said not to lean on anything, what did you mean exactly? I was shooting with the barrel/cylendar on a sandbag, and probably was leaning forward a bit. When hunting I envision resting the barrel on a rail or bipod for deer, no? When I get to that point, how should I stand/sit/rest the gun to train to take deer hunting shots?
I am committed and willing to put in range time.

Also, what is the verdict on using 454 vs 45LC brass for reloading or for factory ammo for the time being?

 

[Zaydok Allen]

Sincere thanks 460Kodiak, SDGlock and 41Mag for your very helpful straighforward advice.
Thanks for not taking the silly approach of telling me to go back to shooting a 22.
I went down to my creek side range before i got your replies and shot some 45LC cowboy to get comfy w/ the SRH again, then some BEAR 45LC +P 325 grn, followed by the Fusion 454 260 grn at 1350 FPS: they were all fine, after I re-acquainted myself, just a little snappy. I then tried some Buffalo Bore 360 grn at 1450 FPS or so that I wanted to love, and discovered I will be happy to sell you guys a box of them! I think I know what you mean by the torque: the recoil all seemed to go into my right hand and twisted my wrist to the right, pretty much numbing my hand. But i was fine, and only shot 2 of those, then returned to the Fusions, which are fine, but they seemed inconsistant on accuracy, but that could (easily) be me. Any way I am doing better, and will put your advice into effect.

It's possible your particular gun just doesn't like that BB loading if the accuracy was inconsistent. It's also very possible that the beating it put on you made you anticipate the pain and flinch a bit. I've shot BB 360 gr Colt+P ammo out of my 460V and was really surprised at how sharp the recoil was, even in a 4 lb gun. BB ammo is nothing to underestimate. The warmth of their loads make federal ammo seem like powder puff loads in my experience.

When I shoot 454's I like Hornady as both their 240 gr and 300 gr ammo seems to be very accurate for me and hit where I want. It's not lightly loaded stuff though, and will definitely keep your attention. It also happens to be the most consistently available 454 ammo in my area. Not cheap though. That's for sure.

When 460 Kodiak said not to lean on anything, what did you mean exactly? I was shooting with the barrel/cylendar on a sandbag, and probably was leaning forward a bit. When hunting I envision resting the barrel on a rail or bipod for deer, no? When I get to that point, how should I stand/sit/rest the gun to train to take deer hunting shots?
I am committed and willing to put in range time.

The reason I made the comment about not leaning on anything was because of your comment in your original post.

I was shooting standing leaning resting on a 4' high table.

With no explanation, this sounds like you were physically leaning your behind on the table. I didn't understand you meant you were using a sandbag. If you plan to use shooting sticks or a bipod, then I see why you'd practice like this. I just shoot with a two handed grip, and personally never use a rest of any kind unless I'm trying to gauge the accuracy of a new gun. I also don't typically shoot over 100 yards though either, because my eyes kind of stink a bit.

Also, what is the verdict on using 454 vs 45LC brass for reloading or for factory ammo for the time being?

454 Brass can be downloaded to 45 colt pressures as far as I know. People do it all the time with 357 brass being downloaded to 38 special levels. Someone with reloading experience needs to chime in on that though.

 

[joem1945]

Kodiac460 is telling you straight. Although i don't shoot mu 460 one handed. Over the winter ( I shoot out doors) my accuracy suffers on all the calibers that I shoot. Just now getting back to my normal accuracy.

 

[TimSr]

Factory ammo is typically hot, because that's the purpose of the .454. If you want to shoot Ruger/TC .45 LC loads, most people buy a Ruger .45LC.

If .454 is too much recoil for you right now, then shooting milder ammo as you are doing is the best solution. You can either be content with it, it gradually build a tolerance. You can also get your gun ported to help offset recoil.

I fully undertsand what you mean about the recoil. I've learned to tolerate it, but have never been comfortable with it. I have to consciously tell myself not to flinch -something I don't even think about with .44 magnum. When taking my shot at my deer, I don't much think about recoil. Thats more of a paper punching occurrance.

Those warm Ruger 45LC loads are quite adequate for deer, but there's also something to be said about being able to fully pass through heavy bone and all, at any practical distance even beyond 100 yards. I switched from .44 mag to full powerd .454 for deer and have never looked back.

 

[Huntolive]

Thanks again

I appreciate your honesty and advice.
I will keep training, and let you know how it goes.
As far as deer hunting is concerned, when actually shooting at a deer, what holds, or stability approach do yall recommend? (ie: shooting sticks/bipod, free hand, shooting rail, etc)

Also, still would like 2 know what makes more sense: downloading 454 brass, or uploading 45LC brass??? Moderate 454 w/ 260-300 grains at around 1300 FPS, or Plus P 45LC same 250-300 grains at 1200-1300 FPS? Or something else.

 

[Crawfish1]

Best training round I have ever fired out of my Ruger Alaskan .454 is a .45 LC 240 GR RNFP with a Light load of Trail Boss behind it. I hate .454 max loads. My friend and I used to try to shoot as many cylinders full as we could until one of us would give up because the pain was to severe. It was a stupid mans game of uncle. We would laugh until we cried ,shooting cylinder full after cylinder full. For some reason I always lost. A 460V is tame compared to that Ruger recoil.

I will say when I needed the Alaskan in the wilderness I did not hesitate or miss place a shot although I only needed two to put the creature down. I did not feel the recoil but my eardrums took a beating. It was a turn, draw, shoot, wait for sight picture and then shoot again. Happened real quick I am glad I practiced with the .45's. I didn't lose my hearing but man oh man that thing was loud.

 

[TimSr]

Also, still would like 2 know what makes more sense: downloading 454 brass, or uploading 45LC brass??? Moderate 454 w/ 260-300 grains at around 1300 FPS, or Plus P 45LC same 250-300 grains at 1200-1300 FPS? Or something else.

Theoretically you lose accurracy with shorter cases, but realistically, you are unlikley to notice, so my answer would be whichever one for which you can find load data. Often, but not always, the slow powders like 296/110 that will give you the best performance cannot be down loaded in 454 cases, so 454 cases might require different powders. At 1200-1300pfs you can also use about any 45LC bullet, whereas only certain bullets handle 454 velocities. I do highly favor Hornady XTP bullets for hunting. (XTP-Mag For Casull)

freedomarms.com has some great load data for 454 across the spectrum of powders and velocities.

 

[Huntolive]

Thanks all! So no clear answer on which brass is best?

Thanks guys.

I plan to shoot between 50-100 yards tops mostly for whitetails and occassional hogs. I want a reasonably powerful load w/ good knockdown power that I can be accurate with, reduce recoil and flinch, but get the job well done.
I envision 300 grain XTP at around 1200 fps. Any reson why 454 brass would be better? I also understand from past threads that more special equipment is needed to make the 454 vs 45LC brass reload crimps.

Will using 454 really give me better accuracy?

Can 300 grn XTP take deer at 100 yards at 1200fps?

What would be better?

 

[dickydalton]

Thanks guys.

I plan to shoot between 50-100 yards tops mostly for whitetails and occassional hogs. I want a reasonably powerful load w/ good knockdown power that I can be accurate with, reduce recoil and flinch, but get the job well done.
I envision 300 grain XTP at around 1200 fps. Any reson why 454 brass would be better? I also understand from past threads that more special equipment is needed to make the 454 vs 45LC brass reload crimps.

Will using 454 really give me better accuracy?

Can 300 grn XTP take deer at 100 yards at 1200fps?

What would be better?

A 300 grain XTP in 44 Mag dropped a deer at 187 yards for me. It went all the way through after centering the heart. That one was only loaded to 1100 FPS if I remember right.
Your 454 load would drop an elk at 100 yards.

 

[gamestalker]

For me, which may not work for everyone, I have always allowed the firearm to rise. I don't try to counter the recoil, but rather direct it. Firm grip, and let it rise. I think most anyone who tries to counter or stop the gun from doing what it's going to do under recoil, will suffer a painful lesson in physics. I've never been beamed by a barrel, nor have I felt it painful to shoot full tilt magnum big bores, not even the 500. Even with the shoulder problems I have, I don't find it uncomfortable to manage these big boys, and I'm only 115lbs. soaking wet.

That's all I got.

GS

 

[marsofold]

I reload 454 Mags using lead 255 grain bullets/ Trail Boss at 1100 fps out of my Ruger. Way more controllable and fun.

 

[Rodentman]

I'm not a reloading expert (I have 1 year experience 40 years in a row). But I have had a LOT of trouble with downloaded 454's using Lil Gun. (Even though I followed Sierra's data). IMHO use Hornady XTP-MAG bullets hot, or use Trail Boss but don't try to lighten up on powders that aren't intended for that. Hope that makes sense.

Also to state the very obvious, I intend to pull down the 40 rounds remaining of the batch from which I had 2 squibs.

I know this doesn't address your OP but I thought I'd share, FWIW.

 

[41 Mag]

If you can get your hands on the latest Speer loading manual, on the last page for the 454 loads is a small section of loads for the cast 45-270 SAA bullet. These are for loading in the 454 cases and can be used with cast bullets weighing in that range. There were a couple of folks who sold that particular bullet but they have since retired from the business. Just a quick look at Missouri Cast Vullets I noted the following,

.45 Elmer K
.452 Diameter
.45 Colt (.452)
255 Grain SWC
Brinell 18
For Elmer Keith Fans
Price per box of 400
Price: $48.00

This would be an excellent bullet to practice with using the data from the Speer manual. You velocities might be a little off, but you could also probably work up to around a grain higher in charge weight as well. Your main concern would be leading, which with these should not be an issue. I have shot a softer alloy faster than those loads out of mine with no ill effects using the Lee 452-300 RF. If you have someone near you who cast and might be nice enough to help you pour someup that is an excellent bullet as well. It however is gas checked which does add a litle more expense. If you look up Gator Checks however you can get them cheaper than if you buy Hornady or Lyman brand. I use that bullet almost exclusively in my 454 and can say it is a very hard hitting one that shoots great.

As for full tilt loads, these are with the Lee 300gr bullet loaded to 1350fps out of my Raging Bull at 25yds standing, no rest, with a two hand hold,

and this is the moment of impact from one on a 6gal bucket of water at 50yds,

These are nothing special, poured from straight wheel weight alloy, tumble lubed with Alox, sized to .452", and tumble lubed again. I have no issues with leading with them loaded over either 296 or AA-9. As you can see they have a dramatic effect on things when they get where they are going. I have one nice buck and several feral hogs to their credit.

If you can find someone close who wiuld help you cast some up you would be far and away better than buying them bulk because you can get what you want when you want it. Eve if you purchased the mold, GC's, and lead, you will still come out over buying commercial.