Help with 350 Legend Over Pressure and High FPS Reloads in Savage Axis

[sillyburt]

Hi Folks,
I'm a long time lurker and first time poster today
I'm having issues with the FPS data I'm getting with reloads and from my last session at the range over pressured loads. I'll try to summarize it with all the detail without it becoming a long post.

My experience with reloading is primarily with 9mm and 380 ACP pistols and I'm fairly new to that. I've reloading about 2-3K over the last few years but again only straight wall pistol ammo

I bought a Savage Axis 18" barrel a few years ago for deer season here in the southern part of Michigan (aka shotgun only zone and now straight wall only rifle zone). I wanted to reload instead of buying factory ammo. I bought some winchester never fired brass and resized (to make sure) then trimmed to 1.705. I bought 2 types of bullets 165 grn Hornady FTX and 170 grn Hornday SP. I searched for 350L reloading info and got 2 conflicting sources. Hornady showed reloading data for both above bullets as the same. Hodgdon had different loads for each bullet. I decided the Hodgdon data must be correct (see below for info)
Below data for 170 SP with H110 powder with 16" barrel
Hornady Data start grn 20.2/2000 fps DNE grn 26/2250 fps COAL 2.245"
Hodgdon Data Start grn 24.0/2049 fps DNE grn 26.7/2221 fps COAL 2.255

I got the following from my caldwell ballistic with 170 SP with H110 9-15-23 with 66* temp (batch 0) COAL with remaining cartridges is 2.250-2.245"
24.5 H110 AVG 2254 fps (2275, 2231, 2256)
25.0 H110 AVG 2314 fps (2322, 2307, 2314)
25.5 H110 AVG 2335 fps (2329, 2331, 2346) - this was best accuracy
26.0 H110 AVG 2381 fps (I only shot one since the recoil seemed quite a bit and i wasn't sure why I was getting much higher fps than the load data)
26.5 - I didn't even shoot these based on above line for 26.0 and what seemed like exceedingly high velocity
Even using the lower grain data from Hornady I shouldn't have been at these types of velocities. I searched and found the usual response for extra barrel length which IIRC was something like 20-25 fps. I also found some posts on forums where guys with savages saw similar kind of velocity like I did so I chalked it up to being OK. The above load data doesn't give a temperature so I thought I'd try to read the speed on these on a colder date. SO I made a handful of 25.5 grain (Batch 1) and planned to use them for early season (I didn't shoot any). I then replaced the defective scope that was on it so made another 10 (BATCH 2) to use for sighting in. Here's the data from that day at 48* on 11-2-23. NOTE barrel was still dirty from previous session

170 SP COAL 2.240-2.235"
#1) 25.5 Batch 1 H110 2257 fps weird that it's much lower (2335 avg) than before but I considered it to be the temperature difference
#2) 25.5 Batch 1 H110 2318 #3) #4) #5) #6) no reading range was outdoors, sun was going down so I turned on lights on sunshades
#7) 25.5 Batch 2 H110 2386 fps (bolt may have been harder to open but I may have chaulked it up to dirty barrel??)
#8) 25.5 Batch 2 H110 2396 fps (bolt may have been harder to open but I may have chaulked it up to dirty barrel??)
#9) 25.5 Batch 2 H110 2459 fps Bolt was VERY hard to open and I'm at a point where I'm confused as to why this happened but I was thinking maybe it had to do with it becoming very dark out at this point and chrono is acting weird. Anyway I decide this is way overboard and pack it up (and also too dark out).
After I got home I noticed one had a clear bolt retractor impression on it (maybe I noticed it at the range). I looked at all of the heads and I separated 4 that had what appeared to be bolt retractor impressions and again what must have been the #9 one had a very clear impression on it. I shot 4 of the original 10 from batch 2 (#6-9)

Both sets of load data put 26 grains at either 2178 (Hog) fps or 2250 (Horn)fps so I'm WAY out of whack on this somehow. both sets show 25.5 grains at 2140 (Hog) & 2225 (Horn)

My plans right now are to pull the bullets from the cartridges and weigh again to confirm the weight of grains. I was using a cheapo digital scale but also have a Lee balance I'm going to bounce these weight numbers off. I'm also going to pull the primers and trim the cases down to 1.700 or so in case that's an issue (again these were trimmed to 1.705). I did measure the batch 2 prior to loading them. I did notice some scratches on the mouths of the spent cases that were about 1mm long (parallel to bore) and I wondered if that was the throat of the chamber pinching the case. I still have all of the spent cases and the batch 2 looks like it has flattened primers (to my inexperienced eyes).

After checking my COAL on what I have left and my notes when I reloaded them I'm wondering if the .020 difference between what I loaded and what's in the Hogdon manual could create these issues?

NOTE: I'm on a budget so most of my equipment is LEE. I was using Lee dies in a turret press. The primers were CCI small pistol (#400) all from the same pack of 100 (given to me by neighbor who reloads). There's only been about 50 or so shots fired from this rifle since new in 2020. I shot some for sighting in prior to when I had a chrono so I loaded them at 24 or 24.5 grns of H110 thinking I was far below the danger zone. The bolt was hitting the scope so I called Savage and they sent me a new scope a month ago or so (hence the range time above on 11-2).

I've heard about some guys using Hornady factory ammo and having the heads separate from the cases and/or primers falling out. The response the poster (allegedly) got from Hornady is this happens for the first 100 rnds or so....maybe this gun needs to be broken in??

I'm also wondering if my crimp might be to tight on this and that's why it's causing me the higher FPS? I've pushed the bullet point onto wood on the cartridges and it doesn't move so I don't think it's too light. I'm using the separate lee crimp die and had thought about lightening up the crimp

Any insight would be helpful

 

[MEHavey]

I (and many others) have had problems w/ H110/W296 (and Lil'Gun) in the 350-LGD.
I've spent quite a lot of time trying to figure it out, to no avail

350 Legend and H110 Reloading Help

Hi everyone! This is my first post on this forum. I've been a long time viewer, and finally decided to make an account. I recently built an AR in 350 legend with the express goal of using cast lead projectiles. My upper is a Bear Creek Arsenal with a 16" 1:16 twist barrel and carbine length...

castboolits.gunloads.com

While on a budget, I would nevertheless see if you can dig up any of these powders
In descending order:
Hodgdon H4227
Accurate 5744
IMR 4227
Vihtavuori N110 *C
Alliant 2400
Hodgdon CFE BLK *C
Accurate No.9

(If you could beg/borrow steal Norma 200, that's the cat's meow.
But I haven't seen any imported since the pandemic got rolling.)

 

[Blue68f100]

Every gun is going to be different, the reason for starting low and working up.

Have you done a plunk test? And to see what your distance jump distance is to the lands. This jump can increase pressure if too close or too much compressed load.

H110/W296 can be a very temperamental powder. It has a narrow load range and requires a heavy crimp with a Mag Primer. The CCI 400's are std not mag, 450's are the mag primer.

 

[P Flados]

I had problems with H110 in my 357 Max and 357 MaxAR. Inconsistent ignition mostly.

I tried 4227 but did not like it.

I found some WC 680 (milsurp version of 1680) and have been very happy with the results.

I did see some 1680 in stock on-line recently.

 

[bigpower491]

I'm gonna start reloading this cartridge soon after the michigan firearms seasons are over. Reading this thread and the links provided, think I'll start with Ramshot Enforcer instead of 296 or Lil Gun. Have all 3 on hand, and some #9
I've been using the Hornady American Whitetail 170s in this Weatherby vanguard I recently picked up no problem. No head separation or primers falling out, which would be a defect in the ammo. Savage makes a good gun, and their chambers are usually more consistent than most. This cartridge, as with the 450 Bush and other straight walls, headspaces on the mouth, like your 380 and 9s, so a taper crimp is required. I like the Lee factory crimp dies for these types of cartridges.
I'd be a bit suspicious of your scale. It isn't uncommon for a rifle to go over the published velocities with a given, and some times even less, charge. I believe with the data I've been looking at, they use a 16" barrel, and the Hornady ammo is rated at 2200fps out of a 16". Yours is a bit longer and will probably show slightly higher velocity numbers. My Weatherby has a 20", so Im expecting the numbers I eventually get to reflect that.
The cases and and primers will be your best indicator of high pressures. Hard bolt open, sign of high pressure. The straight walls do get some blow back in the chamber, but unless you had some pretty heavy soot on those cases, I don't think your chamber is causing the hard bolt open as much as high pressure would.
As stated, 110/296 are a bit finicky, and have a very narrow load range. A small rifle primer shouldn't have any problems lighting off those charges of that powder, and a Magnum is only going to increase the pressures.
I myself would go back to that 25.5gr load and call it a day if the accuracy meets your requirements

Good luck and good luck this season. It's gonna be warm next week, so hunting in Manistee County should be a bit slow....bummer

 

[lordpaxman]

@sillyburt , welcome to THR!
I don’t load for the Legend, yet, but am interested in the various posts about it.
Heavy bolt lift is never a good thing and I wouldn’t attribute it to a dirty rifle fired only a few times. You could post pictures of your primers and see what the majority think but CCI are pretty hard primers and if they’re flattening it’s shows there’s pressure on them.

The primers were CCI small pistol (#400) all from the same pack of 100 (given to me by neighbor who reloads).

CCI’s small rifle primers should have been ok For this load.

Even using the lower grain data from Hornady I shouldn't have been at these types of velocities.

That’s quite a discrepancy between the load data, I’d be inclined to start with the Hornady data for their bullet. Mind the COL as well, since yes, shortening it will increase pressure.

My plans right now are to pull the bullets from the cartridges and weigh again to confirm the weight of grains. I was using a cheapo digital scale but also have a Lee balance I'm going to bounce these weight numbers off.

My test loads include loading an extra round that isn’t fired, just for this case to verify what the test loads have.
You may want to invest in a set of check weights for your digital scale. At least they can verify if the scale is reading correctly within the range of weight you’re using. Amazon has them and they’re helpful As a QC check. You certainly can check against your balance beam but again, how do you know that is accurate unless there’s a check weight?

 

[sillyburt]

Ok sorry for delay in response(s).
I did have unfired bullets from the 25.5 grain batch (batch #2). IT was hard to getall of the powder since I'm using one of the hammer type pullers. I managed to take my time and not rap like #$%$^ until the bullet flung out and threw powder around on the upstroke. It took me 80-100 hits before the bullets came out of the cartridge. I only had about 5 to try this on and the 3 or so I managed to remove without throwing powder all over the placed weighed 25.5 grains or less (e.g. 24.5-25.5) when using the digital. The bar scale read the 25.5 as 26. but I've moved the adjustment on this in the past slightly. Yes I have a 20 & 40 grain calibration weight on order. I also have the 20 gram weight with the digital scale to (allegedly) calibrate that as well and I did it when I made batch #2. based on how many raps on the wood with the hammer bullet remover I'm wondering if I crimped too tight and that allowed the case mouth to move too far forward

I'm inclined to try IMR 4227 based on MEHavey's post but P_Flados said it didn;t work for him. I chose H110 bc that's all I saw people using on the internet. I was at Bass Pro today nd they had one pound left at like $50...I want to do more research before I plunk down $50 on something that might or might not work for me. If I could use it in other rounds I'd be more inclined (I have 357 magnum but never shoot it). In all honestly I was at Bass Pro bc I threw in the towel for this season and bought factory ammo...which would be the first through this rifle. I have too many Real Life things going on and not enough time to be able to do the reloads correctly for deer season this year. I've got HS kids and they both just bought cars that need some attention (before the winter hits), work always takes up ton of time, between trying to get time to hunt and holidays coming up, my wife needs help due to a disability, outdoor ranage time is becoming limited with less light out, only a handful of days left to shoot at the range before rifle season opens and on and on (the only way I'm able to get this time to respond is I'm online (table top) gaming and can do that and this at the same time ). In short I thought I'd go to the range with the 25.5 loads last week and sight the newly bolted on scope and presto!!! I'd be ready for deer season. But that's not the case this year with this major hiccup on the reloads.

BUT that doesn't mean I;m giving up. I;ve got about 30-40 170 grn SP bullets left and a whole box of FTX 165 grn ones. I've enjoyed reloading for 9mm and 380 so I;ve got the equipment to move forward on this caliber. I have run into this issue where I thought I was hosed on some powder I bought. I recently bought 4# of silhouette based on a deal that was hard to pass up and a lot of keyboard captaining on the internet said it would be great for my 9mm & 380. It was a FLOP in the 380 and I found out how position sensitive it was with partially filled cases. The 9mm did FANTASTIC in one pistol though thankfully with a slightly compressed load it shot better than the loads I was using previously with a diff powder. so I'm going to do some more reasearch before plunking cash down on a diff powder unless it's more versatile with other calibers. I ended up buying some winchester 180 rn rounds ($25/20) so I at least get some brass out of it for future use. CFE BLK might be versatile enough for me to justify buying. I've got that buddy down the street who might be able to sling me enough powder to try it out before buying eithe rone of those powders but he moved and lives 30 mins away now. The only published reloading data I've been able to find is for Acc #9, Vht N-110, H110/Win 296, Alliant 2400, Enforcer, Lil' gun, Power Pro 300-MP, CFE BLK & IMR 4227 between Hornday & Hodgdon. I could use the Acc #9 in 9mm later on or perhaps 380

How do you do the plunk test with a bolt action rifle? when I pulled the bullets I set one up long and threw it into the chamber and closed the bolt. I got varying results in length using two dummies to find the "touching lands" COAL. I did it last year and the year before and saved those on the side but I tried to make sure this time I made sure I got a real good reading. I got 2.321 & 2.307. I was using the original 2 I had so perhaps the cases were stretched out?? My outer case walls look kinda bulgy after the bullets go in and I was wondering if the case neck tension is too high causing me higher pressures. Ill have to get some time to post pics of what they look like as well as the primers of the 25.5 batch that shot such high velocities.

I intended to switch over to benchrest primers and I've got 200 federal SMR ones but I wanted to use up the regular CCI ones I already had first. when I started reloading for this rifle in fall of 2020 that's all I had and all I could get my hands on

OK sorry for long post but this is the first post I've ver had regarding reloading since I started some 3.5 years ago

 

[MEHavey]

RL-7 is next best choice....

OAL/distance to lands determination:
See https://thefiringline.com/forums/showpost.php?p=5956707&postcount=8

 

[sillyburt]

OK so I've got an update.
First I made a mistake in my posts...I used CCI #400 Small RIFLE primers NOT small Pistol

I loaded up some more with IMR 4227 at 23.2, 23.5, 24.2, 24.7 & 25.2 (3 of ea) with 165 grn Hornady FTX this past Fri . I cut one of the cases (slit parallel to bore) to find my distance to the lands @ 2.300. I made COAL 2.250

My intention was to go to the range the same day but I got a late start Fri after work and didn't move fast enough. I want to hit the range while there's still some cold(er) weather out. I'll update my findings after I hit the range...hopefully this powder will be more consistent than the H110

 

[sillyburt]

OK well I went to the range last week (3-28 46* out) with IMR4227 loaded 165 hornady FTXs (from Hodgdon reload data). I had several with 23.2 before moving to the other ones stepped in .5 increments. BUT I seemed to still have higher than expected velocity with the 23.2 grain (avg 2053 fps and individuals as follows 2077, 2037, 2070, 2052, 2029, 2053). Expected was 1908 but I'm quite a bit faster than that even considering I have an 18" barrel compared to the 16" barrel used for reload recipe

• My cartridges are trimmed to 1.705 +/-.001 (range 1.700-1.710) after full length sizing
• COAL is 2.250
• COAL to touch lands is 2.300 (I used slitting a cartridge length

I also checked my notes and for hunting season 2023, when I gave up on reloading for this rifle for that season, and moved over to Winchester Super X 180 grain, whose advertised velocity is 2100 I chronographed those (48* out) at average 2172 (individual as follows 2161, 2174, 2201, 2152)

Man O Man....do I just have a fast rifle?? I checked my cleaning spreadsheet and I've only cleaned this once (7-23) since I started tracking it (perhaps in 2022...I've only had the rifle since fall of 2020). When cleaning off the guns I don't shoot, I must have put this one off thinking I would have shot it sooner than I ended up doing it (i.e I pry put this on the side for -at a later date- thorough cleaning as opposed to non-used maintenance/quick cleaning). I might try cleaning it real good (last cleaning only shows bore snake cleaning) and see if that changes anything

Any thoughts on why I'm getting such high(er) velocities in both factory and reloads? maybe the throat is dirty and could be causing that? Between the quick cleaning on 7-23 until & including this past week I only shot 21 bullets since. That doesn't sound like enough to cause an avg of about 70-150 fps extra with factory and reloads. I'm seeing online to expect 25 fps per inch. That starts to make the Winchester ammo make sense but how often does advertised fps actually happen (and wouldn't they have used an 18" barrel to get their advertised fps)?? I'm at a loss with my limited trouble shooting for reloading. again like stated above I've been limited to pistol rounds but have never run into this kind of issue.

 

[Blue68f100]

Some barrels are like that. I have one that runs 200 fps faster than any of my other guns, all with 24" barrels. It's not any harder on brass than any of the others, no pressure signs.

 

[film495]

how does the chrono work with the pistol rounds? keep thinking of getting a chrono, but never have. Do they have to be calibrated? I would suspect the chrono is off before I thought I was getting higher than published velocities from factory ammo.

 

[MEHavey]

I ran your load (approximating the FTX weight/profile) through QuickLoad.
Adjusting your 23.2gr IMR4227's burn speed slightly to match the 18"/ 2050's velocity you got gave me 41,500 psi -- close to Hodgdon's

BTW: There's a rather dramatic difference between Lyman's 51st load data/results for the 350L/165FTX/IMR4227 -- more consistent w/ what you got -- and a heckuva lot more pressure at the top end.
I'd grab a copy and read when you can.

 

[lordpaxman]

It could be a fast barrel or a batch of fast powder. How’s your chrono setup? Sometimes gasses ejected from the barrel can influence readings. That’s why they have a minimum distance to the screens. I’ll put a few known bullets across the chrono first, usually a 9mm with blazer 115s that I know in a particular gun end up at a reasonable V.

 

[sillyburt]

how does the chrono work with the pistol rounds? keep thinking of getting a chrono, but never have. Do they have to be calibrated? I would suspect the chrono is off before I thought I was getting higher than published velocities from factory ammo.

It could be a fast barrel or a batch of fast powder. How’s your chrono setup? Sometimes gasses ejected from the barrel can influence readings. That’s why they have a minimum distance to the screens. I’ll put a few known bullets across the chrono first, usually a 9mm with blazer 115s that I know in a particular gun end up at a reasonable V.

I love having the chrono. I inherited my Dad's guns and all his ammo when he died. He was reloading 9mm on a Taurus PT92 (in the mid 90's) and I shot his reloads without a second thought. He was a follow the letter kinda guy. Turns out the V was 1300-1400 FPS. I dug in deeper and it turned out he was compacting blue dot and some other issues so I pulled all the bullets. So yeah if you're reloading it's a plus to have instead of guessing and/or trying to read primers (which I won't even pretend I can do-but at times I've saved my brass afterwards in separate bags for different ladder levels of powder and could tell differences between groups of them).

Is it accurate...I think so. I've shot federal HST 147 grain rated at 1K FPS and my 4" barrel on 2 occasions average 982 & 994 on each time. I shot federal HST 124 rated at 1150 FPS and my 4" barrel average was 1149 FPS. I've loaded for 9mm and adjusted for barrel length and while I don't have the info in front of me it seemed really close to what was in the recipe.

does it need to be calibrated, NO. I have the cheap(er) Caldwell Ballistic Precision and AFAIK there's no calibration even for maintenance. IT works and what I read online prior to buying was there's more accurate out there but the differences are between shooting sessions but not between shots in any one shooting session. It has the light/sun covers so it worked at the indoor shooting range even with fluorescent lights on (much to the surprise of the shooter next to me who told me it wouldn't work with those lights). The labradar is the cat's meow but pretty pricey at something like $400-500 last time I checked. I paid $135 for it back in 2021 (stand, case, light screens, etc) currently about $160. But it takes me quite a bit to set it up at the range and thankfully I can go when nobody's there so I can walk back and forth to it and tweak the "reading" triangle to where I'm going to shoot. FYI welding sticks can have their weld material scrubbed off and used for the triangle sticks and are WAY cheaper than buying the Caldwell official ones...of course that's only if you end up shooting one and bend it
So yes I was 12 ft away from muzzle when I set it up. I ended up learning about that issue when I first got it

 

[jmorris]

How do you do the plunk test with a bolt action rifle?

You can do this if you size the case enough for the bolt to drop on its own, with loaded rounds as well.

Setting size die for bolt action rifle.

www.youtube.com

 

[sillyburt]

BTW: There's a rather dramatic difference between Lyman's 51st load data/results for the 350L/165FTX/IMR4227 -- more consistent w/ what you got -- and a heckuva lot more pressure at the top end.
I'd grab a copy and read when you can.

Yeah I spent some time a night or two ago searching ALL OVER the internet to get a copy of the 350L Lyman data (I'm assuming what I found is the 51st as the post came out after that manual came out and I don't think 350L was out when the 50th came out [2016]). What I found for 165 Hornady w/IMR4227 was 2062@23 grains and [email protected] grains w/54,700 PSI at top end. A quick search shows me SAMMI specs of 55K psi max

I did a quick interpolation of data and tried to line it up with my ladder loads. The bottom of it really lines up well with what my chrono read. I'm going to go back to the range this week when it gets cooler out and try again using this new data. I'll see if I start to veer away from what Lyman's has for this recipe. And bc I'm a scardy kat I'll most likely stay away from the upper end based on the pressure you've spoke about at the top end. I just need some hunting loads that are accurate and cheap and don't need to chase speed for the sake of speed